Amsoil Diff Lube Question(s)

[Kyle]

I've got a couple question before I change the gear lube in my Dana 80 for the 1st time. I've decided on Amsoil but don't know which one to buy.

"75W-90 Synthetic Gear Lube"
"80W-90 Synthetic Gear Lube (GL-4)"
"80W-90 Synthetic Gear Lube (GL-5)"
"Series 2000 75W-90"
"Series 2000 75W-140"

I'll be installing a Mag-Hytec cover at the same time.

I live in Arizona (115+ degrees in summer), but travel to altitude during elk season (20 degrees at night). I "usually" don't pull much but once in a while I drag a 12000# trailer.

Also, some gear lubes say "compatible with anti-spin diffs" but should I add the anti-spin additive anyway?

How much gear lube with the Mag-Hytec?
How much anti-spin additive with the Mag-Hytec?

Any help and/or opinions will be much appreciated.


[This message has been edited by Kyle (edited 12-29-2000). ]

 

[1tuffram]

Since you are going to use Amsoil, spend a little extra $ and get the Series 2000. As far as which weight it's toss-up. Some would say since you live in hot climate and occasionally tow you need the 75W-140. Amsoil wear test show both weights offer the same wear protection. The 75W-90 is more "fuel efficent". (4. 8% over petroleum)

As far as friction modifier, the Series 2000 has it added. Some people need to add additional friction modifier and some don't, guess it depends on your limited slip differential. I have never needed to add friction modifier, even when I used Amsoil's regular synthetic gear lube. I think this just varies from truck to truck.

Don't know the additional capacity with the Mag-Hytec cover. I'm sure Mag-Hytec and other members could give that information. I believe on the TDR Home Page there's an article under products tested which discusses the Mag-Hytec installation.

I think the 75W-90 will work just fine for your application, but if you are concerned about that occasional tow then go with the 75W-140 for peace of mind. I don't think the cold temperatures you mentioned will matter much, both lubes have a pour point of -51 F (-46 C). However, the Brookfield Viscosity @ -40 C, cP (ASTM D3829) for the 75W-90 is 35,000cP and the 75W-140 is 133,000cP. The lower a gear lube's viscosity (in cP), the better it flows in cold temperatures. Typical petroleum gear lubes where 138,000cP in the Brookfield Viscosity Test.

I'm sure oilman, amsoilman, and a few others can discuss this topic in much more detail if you need to know more.

------------------
'95 2500 SLT 5 speed 4x4

 

[Sled Puller]

Ditto. You can not go wrong following what tufram said.

Also do a search, if you want more info.

Gene


------------------
1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled. Amsoil Premiere Direct Jobber, Member of: NRA Business Alliance, GLTDR, WANTED: Wrecked Dodges.
www.awdist.com

 

[Mike Vonada]

Lets slide this one over the wall to the Products and Accessoreis forum.

 

[HC]

Series 2000 for sure; I'm using the 75W-140 but if I could get comfortable with it would like to try the 75W-90. I just keep thinking that I want my diff to last as long as possible, and since both are 75W-xx I'm not overly worried about the low end of the temp scale, so by going with the -140 I'm thinking more of max protection in summer.
I might have it backwards, maybe I'd get quicker protection with the 75W-90 and reduce overall wear. Amsoil experts - I've already heard your "wear scar" arguments for why 75W-90 is just as good, so let me throw you a curve ball: If the 75W-90 really, really protects as good or better, why does Amsoil even bother to market a 75W-140? Seems they are selling me something that gives higher wear than the 75W-90 alternative, but costs the same. If there is not more to the story (such as a service where the 75W-140 really is better), then Amsoil is guilty of not taking the best possible care of me, the customer, by allowing me to put that thick goo in my diff when they know they have something better! #ad

P. S. - I'm just razzing here as I search for more info, got too much Amsoil in my truck for anyone to take this as a serious jab...

------------------
2001 ETH, QC, LWB, 4WD, 3. 54, SPA Pyro & Boost, K&N RE-880 w/foam pre-cleaner, ARE Z-series Cab-high shell, Rear ARB locker, and all kinds of synthetic fluids...

 

[lschultz]

Had Series 2000 75W90 in a 95,98,2000. Never had to add any additive. Son has it in his 99 same thing. I'm in central Texas so it gets pretty hot.

------------------
2000 Dodge 4x4 Quad Cab SWB 5-SP

 

[Oil Man]

Kyle,
If you are stuck on using the Amsoil products, then my advise would be to use the Amsoil 75w140 over the Amsoil 75w90. Tests have shown that the Amsoil 75w140 has 25% higher load carring ability over the Amsoil 75w90. If you want a better oil, you could use the LE 75w140 synthetic. It has shown about 20% higher load carrying ability over the Amsoil 75w140. In fact at the temperatures that you will be running, the LE 607 has a much higher load carrying ability than any of the oils above and will work in your temp range. If you are getting your cover from Mag-Hytec he carries the LE oil and can send you some. 1-818-786-8325.

Your Dana 80 holds just less than 4 quarts stock and about 8 quarts with the Mag-Hytec cover.

E-mail me if you have any other questions.

Sincerely, Kevin

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Oil Man, I've looked over the literature you sent me a few months ago (thank you again) and it looks like the LE607 is a straight SAE90 weight oil, with a -11F pour point. I see there are some other weights for the Almasol Vari-Purpose gear lube, with SAE 80, 90, 140 and 250 grades. Some questions:

1) What do you think of the 80 weight (LE606) for those who live in or travel to colder climates? It does have a slightly lower (-17F) pour point. But I noticed also the SUS and cSt values are quite a bit lower than that of the LE607 (whatever that means).

I like the features of the LE oil considering lower wear rates, friction, and its ability to prevent mixing with water and milking up. But wish it had multigrade and low pour point temperatures like the Amsoil. At this point I think the Amsoil will fill my bill better since I don't do heavy towing and want improved mileage in cold weather. Which brings me to another quiestion:

2) If the LE supposedly drops rear diff temps, then isn't the lube going to be relatively viscous, and hurt fuel economy, especially in colder weather? Or does its friction reducing capabilities result in better MPG than the Amsoil?

3) Then there's the 9920 Synolec 75W140 synthetic oil. Why is there hardly any mention of it? Its pour point is -49F.

Thanks,

Vaughn



[This message has been edited by Vaughn MacKenzie (edited 12-31-2000). ]

 

[Oil Man]

Vaughn MacKenzie.
To answer one of your questions, can you run the LE 606 SAE 80 in colder temps. Yes you can. The Check chart says that you can run a 75w, 80w, 75w90, or a 80w-140 below -10 deg F.

SUS and cSt are a measure of viscosity. The 606 is about 1/2 the thickness of the 607.

As for reducing friction and getting better mileage. There are 3 ways to do this. 1. by using a thinner fluid you will have less fluid friction. This would be like running through watter or running through mud. Running through mud will take much more energy. 2. Use less oil or put it at a lower level in the rear end. Ford does this and has problems. They say to fill the rear end to 1/4 to 3/4 below the fill hole. This keeps the bearings out of the oil and only lubricates them with what might splash on them. This also keeps the ring gear in less oil and for less fluid friction. 3. Build a better oil that will have less internal friction properties or less coefficient of friction. This is what LE does in all of their gear oils. Also LE adds more EP anti-wear additives or about 12% more than Amsoil. LE also has Monolec and Almasol that no other company has. These chemicals act synergistically to improve permance quyalities of other components in oils including anti-wear additives to produce a result greater than if each were used separately.

Also keep this in mind. Fluid friction means much more if your car/truck only has 125 hp than if it has 400 hp. The smaller hp engines will have a much harder time overcomming the fluid friction than the higher hp engines will. In your diesel truck with the hp you have, using a thinner oil will probibly not do much for your mileage. Using an oil that holds up to more load will do more to protect the gears and will not hurt your mileage.

As for not talking about the LE 9920 as much as the LE 607. The 607 will handle much more load than the LE 9920,(607-1100N, 9920-500N). LE has other gear oils. Let's look at some of them. Since you asked about Amsoil let's compare them for the load that they can handle.
LE 607 SAE 90 -- 1100N
LE 703 80w90 -- 900N
LE 9920 75w140 -- 500N
Amsoil 75w140 -- 400N
Amsoil 75w90 -- 300N

Let's look at the pour points;
LE 607 SAE 90 -- (-11)
LE 703 80w90 -- (-15)
LE 9920 75w140 -- (-49)
Amsoil 75w140 -- (-46)
Amsoil 75w90 -- (-46)

The reason that I talk about the LE 607 is it's ability to reduce wear better than all the others. However I will recommend the LE 75w140 when temps are very low.

You had some very good questions and I hope I have answered them good enough for you.

Sincerely, Kevin

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Kevin,
Thanks for the information. Now I have more questions #ad


1) So, when you are talking about load carrying capacity, is this the same as saying, how much pressure can the oil film withstand before it separates and allows metal-to-metal contact? What about the ability of an oil to maintain protection between 2 surfaces with high contact pressure AND sliding surfaces at high speed such as with bearings and gear teeth?

2) What does "N" signify in the load rating?

3) Does the Almasol and other additives do their job at all temperature ranges, from pour point up to, say, over 200F?

4) Worst case scenario: what happens if it gets to -20F with a -11F pour point oil? I'm not likely to see this situation, but would it still cling to surfaces and lube adequately?

5) Does LE sell friction modifier for my LSD or is there a brand you recommend?

Thanks again for your time and input!

Vaughn



[This message has been edited by Vaughn MacKenzie (edited 12-31-2000). ]

 

[Oil Man]

Vaughn MacKenzie,
Yes to your #1 question. To answer it further I will answer your #2 question. "N" is the letter used when talking about Newtons of load, as in Physics. It is the force required to accelerate a mass of one kilogram one meter per second per second that is equil to 100,000 dynes, and it comes from Sir Isaac Newton. Your question is, when I'm talking about load carrying capacity am I talking about how much pressure it takes to rupture the oil film. Yes this is what I'm talking about. You also ask, "What about the ability of an oil to maintain protection between 2 surfaces with high contact pressure AND sliding surfaces at high speed such as with bearings and gear teeth?" Most oils will have Sulfur Phos. as the anti-wear additive. This additive is a sacrifical additive that is only activated under temperatures. The LE oils will have this additive and in addition will have Almasol which is also an additive that is used for amti-wear as well as other things. Almasol is not temperature activated it will work at all temps, all the time. Almasol amplifies the inherent lubrication capabilities of the oils it is used in. These combinations provide the finest lubricant protection against the four major causes of failure on enclosed gears - pressure, temperature, acid, and foam. Almasol has an affinity for metal but will not build up on itself or affect tolerances. If under the sliding action of heavy loaded gears under high temps the oil film ruptures the Almasol will not let the metal to metal wear to accur.

Yes Almasol works at all temps. from -100 deg F to 1900 deg F. Almasol has been used on every US manned space flight and including the Space Shuttle flights.

Your next question is a good one. You asked, "4) Worst case scenario: what happens if it gets to -20F with a -11F pour point oil? I'm not likely to see this situation, but would it still cling to surfaces and lube adequately?" The pour point of an oil is the point that it will no longer pour. As in the case of the LE 607 the pour point is -11 deg F. If you were to just get in your truck and drive at this temp there would be enough oil left on the gears to be OK. At that temp the oil will not be rock hard but you should not just get into your truck and just take off at that temp anyway. You should warm your truck up so as to let the engine and trans temperature get up to normal. This would also let the heater work so you did not freeze while driving. If you were to be in -20 deg weather a lot then I would recommend the use of the LE 9920 75w140 synthetic. Extended temps colder than about -10 deg F without warming up the truck would be to cold for the LE 607. What would happen? The oil that is still on the gears from the night before will protect the gears for the first few miles. The Gear will run through the oil and the oil will channel causing the gears to not have the lubrication that they need. In reality the gears when they start heating up from driving will increase the temps in the gear box, which will make the oil flow and the gears will be able to run through the oil lubrication just fine. If you are caught in very cold temps with the LE 607 you should not just drive away and go 65 mph. You should drive slow and warm it up first. This is common sense for that kind of cold weather.

LE does not have the LS modifier in their oils. The recommendation would be to use the same kind of LS additive that your mfg sells.

You have some good questions and I think I have answered them. If not ask again and I'll try again.

Sincerely, Kevin

 

[C Schomer]

Kevin, do you know how the Castrol Syntorq 75w90(in the NV4500)compares in the load tests. I need to change mine in the spring! I've been told by NV themselves and by CTC at Sparks that GL5 is not a problem at normal temps. Mine has reached 225 degrees - I think that is still ok! I have 2K 75w90 in the diff now and want to try the LE607, or maybe the 80w90. I'm thinking of the 2K 75w90 in the transmission(CTC and NV both said that would be fine). I've read that Amsoil uses a buffer to keep the phos/sulfur additive from being a problem in GL4 applications. Does LE make a syn. (or other) 75w90 safe for the NV 4500, and if so, where does it fit in the load tests? Craig

[This message has been edited by C Schomer (edited 12-31-2000). ]

 

[Lug-nut]

Oil Man,

I am just curious where the standard oils (Penz, Quaker, etc) rate in load testing? This is all very interesting, thanks for all the info.

 

[Oil Man]

C Schomer,
We have not tested the Castrol Syntorque fluid because it is fact that it would not do as well. The difference between the GL-4 and GL-5 is that the GL-5 has twice the anti-wear additive as the GL-4. This alone would show the GL-5 much better on a wear test.

LE uses the same buffers in their gear oil as Amsoil does. However, it is not just the temperatures that will cause a problem with these transmissions. It is the fact that you can get some condinsation. The combination of the water and heat with more anti-wear additive can cause higher wear on the syncros with the GL-5 than you would get from the GL-4.

Although the buffer package is good and should keep the additonal anti-wear that is in the GL-5 from attacking the syncros, Why would you use a GL-5 when you could use a GL-4 and be safe at any temp. The temp you are talking about 225 is right at the upper limit and if I were you I would use the GL-4 only. Not a GL-5 or a GL-4/GL-5 Just a GL-4 only.

Sincerely, Kevin

 

[Oil Man]

Craig J,
Most oils will only take a 200N load.
Kevin

 

[C Schomer]

Thanks Kevin , I was only told that temp could be a problem - not water. Does LE have something suitable? Craig

 

[Oil Man]

C Schomer,
LE does not have a GL-4 oil, so If you are in warranty my recommendation would be to use a straight GL-4 and not a combination GL-4/GL-5. LE has lots of transmissions using the LE 607 and the LE 703.

Sorry,
Kevin

 

[1tuffram]

Originally posted by Oil Man:
Craig J,
Most oils will only take a 200N load.
Kevin

Thanks for posting the N load values for the Amsoil and LE products. I found this very enlighting. I was disappointed to see the Amsoil Series 2000 ratings, especially since most standard oils rate at 200N load.

To help put these numbers in a "real world" perspective do you know approx N load forces seen in the drive train of a stock RAM? (Dosn't matter if 12 valve, 24 valve or ETH, etc. Just want some kind of ball park idea)

 

[amsoilman]

Kevin,
Why do you come on to a thread that is targeted DIRECTLY to Amsoil questions, and then "NOCK" their products and try to convince others that the LE is superior too theirs? Why do you not "Nock" the other lubes, is it because the Amsoil is more popular than the LE as well as better known?

Wayne

 

[Sled Puller]

Kevin,
Based on these numbers ALONE, tell us why we would ever want to use the LE 140?

LE 607 SAE 90 -- 1100N
LE 9920 75w140 -- 500N
Gene