Amsoil Series 3000 5W30 ok in summer??

[CumminsPower98]

I am wondering if the Series 3000 5W30 is ok to run in the summer in our Cummins. I will not be pulling anything or working the truck hard. It's mostly just a run about vehicle. Have any of you run this oil in the hot summer, say in the mid to upper 90's?

Thanks,
Mark

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Red '98 12valve 2500 4X4 Quad Cab, Long Bed, SLT, 5-spd Manual, 3. 54, Dana 80 Rear,Camper/Tow pkg, 33x12. 50x16. 5, straight piped, silencer ring hanging in shop, Yet to be Bombed, 68K+ miles.

 

[DocStressor]

Sure, no problem. Cummins recommends 15W-40 because they assume you will be using conventional oil. The higher number (40) is a measure of the viscosity at 212 degrees, which is approximately the temperature of oil in the sump of a warmed up engine. The temperatures at the rings, bearing surfaces, and camshaft lifters actually gets much higher than that (>350 degrees). Viscosity and film strength fall off as temperature increases. But synthetic base stocks are more resisant to this effect (as well as to fluid shear) than conventional oils. So a given SAE weight of synthetic typically provides better protection at higher temperatures than the same weight conventional oil. In order to realize the full benefits of synthetic oil (easier starting, inproved fuel economy), it is best to use a lighter weight oil.

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1999 Quad cab 2500, SB, SLT, 4X4, 5-speed, 3. 54, tow and camper package, Lance 820 camper, Lance cabover stabilizers, Rancho 9000s, Airlift airbags,Reese Titan V hitch, Mag-Hytec differential cover with Amsoil 2000 75W-90 lube, Amsoil air filter

 

[redram]

CumminsPowered98 -
Why would you want to run a 5W30 oil when the OEM recommends a 15W40, even if you were to use their branded synthetic or partial synthetic product?

Lee Weber - I strongly disagree with your statements. Viscosity typically decreases with increase of oil temperature but has NO effect on film strength. Film strength of an oil is directly related to the additives present in the oil. Film THICKNESS is directly related to oil viscosity and temperature.
You sound like you are an avid Amsoil backer or reseller and I commend you on that but your statements are just not correct.
Also, Cumminspowered98, check your OEM manual and I think you'll find that using the incorrect viscosity per the recommended ambient temperature conditions could be considered using the wrong oil and might be a consideration in any engine related warranty wear issues. (yeah, I know, Amsoil will cover it) But why put yourself in that position.

No matter how good the 5W30 synthetic you are using, it is still only a 30 wt at operating temperature, not a 40 wt (unless they are mislabelling the oil).
The Series B engine was designed to run on a 40 weight oil and Cummins has determined that a 15W40 works best.

Also, why would you consider running an oil that does not meet the API License requirements for our trucks, ie a minimum level of API CG-4 for your 98 and the current spec is now API CH-4 for the highest diesel rated oils.
Here is a link showing that Amsoil's 5W30 that is API Licensed DOES NOT meet the minimum API specs as defined in your Owner's Manual. They do offer the PCO 15W40.
http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li. cgi?n=amsoil

With so many oils out there that meet API requirements and are synthetics, why would you use an oil that does not meet those requirements?

Mobil Delvac 1, Royal Purple 15W40 or 10W30 Diesel, Lubrication Engineers, Konklin, etc...

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[JJW_ND]

Mark:

I have used the 5W30 the last 60K miles including all last summer. I pull my truck hard and I was a little concerned with higher summer temps but needed a thinner oil for winter use (even more than Amsoils 15W40). I monitor engine oil temps, pull oil samples every 6K, and had 130K miles of knowing how both 15W40 petro and 15W40 synthetic perform. Oil filters (micorglass/statapore with no bypass), oil sample intervals and driving habits remained the same for the last 4 years. The Oil lab was CTC ... which is not affiliated with Amsoil.

Based on oil temps, coolant temps, and oil consumption, the oil performed every bit as good as anything I used in the past. Based on oil analysis results showing lower wear metal readings (lower Fe and higher TBN's), the 5W30 oil did better.

The 5w30 is more expensive then even Amsoils 15W40. If you never see any cold weather (like I do) you might have a hard time seeing increased benifits over Amsoils 15W40. The 15W40 is a pretty good oil, just not in the same class as the 5w30.

My best oil samples have been in the heat of the summer (including running 5w30). My worst have been in the winter and especially when I did very little pulling over the sample period. This leads me to believe that engine wear at startup (slower oil presure with thick oil) takes more life out of an engine then thinner oil (quick oil preasure) or thinner oil during summer use (IMO!).


jjw
ND

[This message has been edited by JJW_ND (edited 03-28-2001). ]

 

[SlyBones]

Dont want to get into the amsoil debate. Just wanted to point out something about certifications.

The link above does not prove that amsoil does not meet API requirements, it only proves that amsoil is not licensed to display the API symbol on that brand of oil.

So before you start flaming, I do not really know if amsoil meets the specs or not. I also do not know the specific details on what a oil company needs to do to become licensed to display the API symbol on their product.

What I do know from 7 years of experience certifying my companies products meet our appropriate agency regs, is that many of these regulatory agencies and specs have a process called "Self Certification". You test your product yourself, then fill out paper work that states you believe you meet the requirements, and send it in with a check. Then the agency sends you a letter and says its ok to apply their symbol to your product.

So its entirely possible that amsoil does not meet the requirements. Its also entirely possible that they meet or exceed all the requirements and they simply do not feel like writing out the check.

In many cases it depends on the Market your in and what your customers demand. You can build the best product out there. It can meet and exceed all of the appropriate regulations for your product. If your customer do not demand you place the agency sticker on the product, then why spend the money. Our company does it because we think we will sell more product. But had we chosen not to do it, does not mean the product is unsafe. It means we did not want to spend the money, and we dont think we can sell more product by spending the money. For example our nearest competition does not submit their product to the agency. However they sell lots of them. The customers simply dont demand it. For us its market driven.

Here is seems to be manufacturer's warranty driven. We are concerned with voiding the warranty. Which is valid, of course.

Again, I do not know amsoil's excuse. I only know that you cannot assume the product is bad or their is something wrong with it, just because it does not spend the effort to become licensed to display a particular symbol.


[This message has been edited by SlyBones (edited 03-28-2001). ]

 

[Sled Puller]

Cummins power 98,
Once again, we have the USERS and the NON-USERS.
I have no idea why guys find every thing they can to deter someone from using a proven product.
I do samples, and if it were coming back worse than than the 15W-40 boys, I would be changin!
HVAC was using the 5W-30 last I heard, he posted his test results, do a search.

I have used the 5W-30 year round, you will not have any problems with it. It WORKS.
It will NOT void any warranty.

I would like to see proof that 1 person has had his Cummins warranty voided because of using Amsoil, just one.
Gene

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1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled. Amsoil Premiere Direct Jobber, Member of: NRA Business Alliance, GLTDR, WANTED: Wrecked Dodges.
www.awdist.com

 

[redram]

Originally posted by JJW_ND:
Mark:

This leads me to believe that engine wear at startup (slower oil presure with thick oil) takes more life out of an engine then thinner oil (quick oil preasure) or thinner oil during summer use (IMO!).


jjw
ND

B]

Or more likely source of poorer wear results would be longer periods of idling, on startup, keeping the truck running for heat, resulting in more fuel dilution and buildup of soot particles in the oil. Also more water condensation due to hot oil cooling down in cold temps overnight resulting in condensation forming in the engine.

Any chance that you could email me the actual oil analysis spread sheet from CTC on your truck?

nitz@wt.net


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[redram]

Slybones and MGM

My question was to Cumminspowered 98. No where did I ask either of you about your use of 5W30. I asked a very distinct question to CumminsPowered 98 on why he would even consider this choice of action when there are other alternatives that ARE synthetic and DO meet the requirements as presented by Cummins and DC, ie API Licensed 15W40 oils.
There was not one hint of attack on any product (unless the shoe fits)

Now that you've chosen to join the questioning, why did you both choose to change from the 15W40 Synthetic by A company if it's supposed to be such a great product? If they can make such a great performing 5W30 Diesel oil why don't they bother to get it API Licensed? It would work out to pennies per gallon!

Just curious.

CumminsPowered 98, still curious about your reason to switching to a non-standard viscosity grade for the Cummins (as listed in the recommended operating procedures)

 

[Sled Puller]

Who do you work for Red Ram?

You seem pretty harsh and worked up trying to save a fellow Rammer from his "folly"

TDR has had Amsoil ads for YEARS. You would think the engines would be failing by now, eh?

The fact is, you will not see anyone blasting Amsoil that has used it. Take a look at the guys who bad mouth it, all non-users.

If Amsoil fails me, I will shout the loudest.

The question is:
"Can I use Amsoil Series 3000 5W-30 Diesel oil in my Cummins Ram this summer safely?

THE ANSWER IS YES.

And you may tow with it, in extreme heat, and extend your drains if you so wish!
Gene

 

[Sled Puller]

Why did I buy it?
Better mileage, wear protection, best oil available.
I wanted the best oil, so I bought it. I put on a lot of miles. Mileage counted. I do not suggest the 5-30 to guys who put on less than 25,000 a year, I don't think it will pay for itself.
Watson went over the API stuff a few threads back, I will dig it out if you want me too.
Gene

 

[redram]

I have been a user of synthetic oils since 1983.
I have even used Amsoil - never had problems with it.
I have also used Mobil 1, Valvoline Synthetic, Redline, Pacer Ultron,
Amway, Amoco Ultimate Synthetic and probably Castrol Syntec.

I have been a member of TDR since before it became a personalized sales
channel for Amsoil 'Lube' experts just because they use the oil.
TDR member 00139 in early 1990.

I also have a degree in Engineering, build my own motors for racing, am a member of STLE
and a certified OMA (Oil Monitoring Analyst) and have NOTHING against Amsoil.
I think its a quality product.
I do think it's a fair question to have asked / get answered on why someone would consider using
an oil viscosity not recommended when even your vaunted Amsoil has the correct product (PCO 15W40)
and it is API Licensed.

The only difficulting I have is people who sell Amsoil that want to dominant every conversation on
most internet sites like we are at a tupperware party.

In none of my posts have I tried to be a salesman and convince someone to use my oil.
I could. I personally feel it is a better product than your product. I also respect your opinion that
the Amsoil is a better product in your opinion. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with you.

I'm sorry and apologize if you felt I was being harsh. I was trying to state facts or ask questions that I felt
were direct and honest.

I pay my bills by representing Royal Purple. This is not a secret. I do not do this 'part time' or to get a 'better price'.
This has been my primary job for the last tem years. Prior to that I worked for oil field service companies
exploring for oil on both land and offshore drilling rigs for ten years. I have samples of crude oil that is directly from the underground oil deposits. I have also been involved in sales when the
bottom fell out of the oil industry in the mid eighties. I have stated this in other posts although
I thought the object of this forum was to have open discussions regarding our trucks, not Amsoil.

I enjoy your comments and experience that you bring to this forum but I guess I got up on the wrong side of the
bed this morning regarding the comments about using a 5w30 oil in summer when Cummins recommends a 15W40.

I hope that we can agree to disagree.

Sincerely,

Redram

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[SlyBones]

Actually I currently have Delo400 in my truck. I am planning on switching next change. Anyways... .

My apologies to redram, my comment was not intended towards any one particular person. I guess I added my long and boring story because there have been a lot of different threads around here lately discussing amsoil and the API certs.

My experience is the fact a company does not get licensed to apply a given agency certification symbol, does not necessarily mean it does not meet the requirements. -- It may mean that some Sales and Marketing VP told the CEO that it would cost $50K and they would only sell 5 more units. So they said forget it.

In my opinion there are several but related questions here.

Is amsoil a good product?
Why is amsoil not licensed to apply the API symbol to the oil we use?
Does amsoil meet the API requirements, even though they are not applying the API symbol?
Does not applying the API symbol provide possible warranty issues with DC?

I think the answer to one does not necessarily answer the other. We should not jump to conclusions.

 

[redram]

MGM

Thanks for the offer of 'digging' up the thread on the API discussion by Watson. I read it and it is thorough and well discussed but there were a couple of points that could be open to interpretation. I chose not to become involved in that discussion.

Due to my direct involvement with a blender of oil I have a good idea (knowledge) of what is required to be API Licensed. Both costs involved and legal issues.

Thanks for the offer though.

Redram

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[Sled Puller]

I do not believe I have ever stepped in and suggested Amsoil to someone on these forums who had not asked. If I did, please alert me of it and I will delete it.

I do step in and defend the product and the Company when I see blatant lies and falsehoods about it.
Or I see someone attacked wrongly for their choice of product when there is nothing wrong with their choice and it is backed by a better warranty then Dodge offers in the first place!
Cummins/PSD owners are good customers because they care about their trucks and want the best, that is what I sell.

Why is it OK for the BOMBers to peddle ALL their products? Those are not even backed by any warranty and REALLY void the Dodge warranty! But that's OK.
The entire TDR mag and website IS for selling products, talking about the products, and driving storys.
Take a look at Genos Garage for cryin outloud! Banner ads in your face!
What is the motto?

"Good enough to sell to a friend"

If that was not your intent in your post, please accept my apologies.

I have seen time and again on these threads where someone asks which Amsoil product do I use, and a whole string of guys come out and suggest other companies.
Now if I did that, then I expect to be flamed!
Amsoil is not my bread and butter, I wish it was. Sometimes I wonder about salespeople who HAVE to make that sale to eat, can you trust them?

I believe Cummins is covering their butt when they suggest the 15w-40. They are not going to spend money on testing Amsoil's 5W-30 to see if it is safe. They sell 15W-40, that is what they suggest. It does the job just fine.
Can you imagine the people who would dump gas 5w-30 in it? They won't say in the manual" Amsoil 5w-30 is ok, but nobody
elses is. "

Yes, Amsoil has a 15W-40. The 5W-30 is ahead of the new specs that are coming out. It has better wear protection and is an ALL climate oil.
I expect to see all the oil companies coming out with the same thing in a few years, following Amsoil once agin, but that is a pattern that has gone on for 28 years.

I wish you would tell us more about Royal Purple, it will be a fun debate!
Ram on!
Gene

 

[CumminsPower98]

Looks like I started quite a debate!

I was already pretty set on using the 5W30 but just wanted to see what others were using and their experiences with it. I feel as many others do that the quicker oil pressure you get from lighter oil is good since 85% of engine ware comes at startup and warm-up! Most of my driving is town stop and go so I feel I will benefit from the light oil. Another reason I chose the 5W30 was because it is the best out there as far as ware protection and breakdown. I know there is a 15W40 oil out there that is recommended but it is not as advanced as the 5W30. I am one who goes for the best within reason so I guess I will be trying this oil out soon (when I can afford it). Thanks for all the input! #ad
I love this forum! #ad
#ad

 

[Cooker]

I like to thank Gene and RedRam for keeping their comments as professional as possible. I can see points of view clearly and I don't think anybody's feelings are hurt #ad


Anyway, I really would like to hear some more factual information about Royal Purple.

Thanks,
Ryan

 

[Sled Puller]

Well Ryan,
I was about to say something about RedRam's Mother, but Sheryl smacked me in the head. #ad

 

[JJW_ND]

Redram:

I NEVER idle my truck. I run Fanless, winter front, and stay ontop of Tstat. Winter oil temps tell it all. Many a night comming back from KS to ND pulling trailers I would catch an hour or two sleep in the truck. I would park, shut off truck, and sleep until I woke up freezing (outside temps well below zero) ready to drive again. I like most you know idling does not warm up the engine at first start. I start driving w/in a minute or two of starting the engine.

In my case, I would point the "poor" samples to lots of cold starts, thick oil and slow oil presure. My truck is garaged 99% of the time. It gets plugged in even in the garage when below zero outside. When I went out of state to pull trailer it would be non-stop.

The last sample of 5w30 had what I would consider my most abusive sample (Emailed to you BTW). Last 12k of the drain interval saw no pulling. Just running emtpy. Last month of sample was one of the coldest Decembers on record in ND. Drove truck every day. Oil still had high TBN, low if any soot, no fuel with 24K on the oil. The sample most close to this one as far as use and very cold weather was on Amsoil 15W40 two winter prior. It had twice as high iron, much lower TBN but still very acceptable to continue use evern though I had dumped at 25K on the oil.

jjw
ND

 

[Cooker]

Let's not everyone get carried away here. I realy like to read these threads. The info that is put on the table about these "oil debates" is great, as long as nobody gets to carried away.

Anyway, I have to agree with RedRam about the oil viscoity issue. A 40w oil is a 40w and a 30w is a 30w right, synthetic or not? Maybe I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm not. FWIW I think the a 40w on the top end is the oil to run, especially in the summer.

Thanks for the info,
Ryan

[This message has been edited by Cooker (edited 03-28-2001). ]

 

[redram]

It seems like the guys using the Amsoil 5W30 are very pleased and convinced they have the best oil - at least within Amsoil's line of products.

Don't assume that because Amsoil PCO 15W40 doesn't offer as good of wear protection as the 5W30 that ALL 15W40's are similar.

I'd match Royal Purple 15W40 up against anything you could offer..... hee hee.
I've run the RP 15W40 in as low as -20 to -25 F condition in Wisconsin. I have industrial distributors in Idaho and Colorado who have Cummins, one with +200,000 on RP 15W40 the other with 275,000+. Industrial distributors in Texas that run a half a dozen as work trucks that always get 300,000+ before they trade them in.

We lubricate Caterpillar 399 (16 cylinder) diesel gen sets for drilling rigs in South America that are currently at a plus 18,000 hour drain interval where previously they had changed every 1000 hours. Fuel consumption, oil consumption, and wear are better. Literally 5% fuel savings and almost half the oil consumption. Projected oil life is now 26,000 hours.

I personally have run RP's 15W40 in my two Cummins and accumualted plus 225,000 miles trouble free with a 12,000 drain interval on standard Fleetguard Filters.

I have Hotshot drivers using RP 15W40 running 30,000 between oil changes. It has gone into older trucks that would consume Delo 400 or Rotella T at a quart every 3000 and now the truck does not use a quart in a 12,000 drain interval using standard oil filters.

It's good stuff.

By the way, Amsoil is a good company, but I wonder about the leading edge stuff. It is not the only company out there making good oils. This is where people like MGM and others tend to rub people the wrong way. Amsoil's a good product but it is not the only quality product that is available for use in a Cummins. It is not a panacea of all products.

Royal Purple, LE, Schaeffer, Redline, Delvac 1, Cummins Premium Blue 2000, Konklin, Hydrotex, etc. all make quality products.
When Amsoil part timers try to defend every comment made it really becomes quite trying at times. It drove me from wanting to become a bigger part of the TDR. Hell, even our editor bought into it. I try to offer technical reasons to use a higher performing oil and then offer alternatives to the enduser. I'm confident that if someone checks out what we have to offer, I'll capture alot of those sales. If it ends up going to a 'competitor' then so be it. The ENDUSER should make that choice based on his decision making not because Joe, Dick and Harry (who all happen to be selling a product) chime in on this list extolling how great the product is. This is like letting the fox have the run of the hen house.

By the way, MGM, although AMsoil is "a cutting edge company" it is not the only one. Royal Purple has had a 10W30 Diesel engine oil for winter use since 1992. (It is currently API Licensed CH-4 /SJ). We have also made special 'Polar Grade' engine oils for american drilling companies operating in Siberia that had the ability to restart at -80 F. But there's no reason to have that type of oil here in the states. I can not think of many places in the continental US that have more than a few days that are sub -20 ambient. (Wind chill has no effect on oils... . wind chill is the evaporation of water from exposed skin, only ambient temperatures effect oils) Granted Wind chills may have more effect on cooling systems or fuel systems but not the fluidity of the engine oil.

For those interested, Royal Purple has a website, www.royalpurple.com.
We sell through three channels, Industrial, Retail and Racing, and a Trucking Division called Longrider.
To keep things non commercial, I will gladly answer emails at nitz@wt.net for those with direct questions.

Redram



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