-
TDR Magazine subscribers receive more than the magazine! You also gain additional forum privileges!
Details here: TDR Privileges
Subscribe to TDR Magazine here: https://www.tdr-online.com/
Amsoil.. What's the difference?
- Thread starter JConley
- Start Date
Attention: TDR Forum Junkies To the point: Click this link and check out the Front Page News story(ies) where we are tracking the introduction of the 2025 Ram HD trucks.
Thanks, TDR Staff
- Status
OK guys,
I have read your posts but yet to see someone take a REAL stand. I have a freshly rebuilt Cummins and once it is thru the break-in period I want to run the best oil I can get. Note that my Cummins had over 700,000 miles on it when I rebuilt it to put in my crew cab and still ran ok. Not only did it have that many miles on it , they were HARD miles as well, with little or no maintenance. I don't give a darn on warm & fuzzy, just the facts please
#ad
. And by the way, you CAN'T do a rebuild on a Cummins, let alone a good one for $1600. I spent over $3000 in OEM Cummins parts alone and another $800 in valve train and machine work.
Kyle
------------------
1985 DODGE 1 ton Crew Cab(imported from California with no rust) W/8' box converted to 4X4 in 1999. Converted to a non-intercooled 1991 Cummins Turbo diesel & rebuilt 5 speed Getrag in 2001(wife can't drive a stick
#ad
. Freshly rebuilt and Balanced Cummins, Rebuilt NP205, Rebuilt Injector pump and tweaked, Matched Injectors, 3" New Mandrel Bent Exhaust,no muffler, Borgeson Steering Shaft, K&N Air Filter, 4:10 gears, limited slip rear end, 16" Goodyear GSA Wranglers, 16K Reese 5th Wheel Hitch,and LE Package and a Sony CD Stereo. Next add-on some “Banks” toys ! If you want to know why I did all of this, 2 kids, one on the way and I can't stand F**d and Ch**y. Kyle Hoover ,Fruitport, MI.
[This message has been edited by CrewCabDiesel (edited 03-15-2001). ]
I have read your posts but yet to see someone take a REAL stand. I have a freshly rebuilt Cummins and once it is thru the break-in period I want to run the best oil I can get. Note that my Cummins had over 700,000 miles on it when I rebuilt it to put in my crew cab and still ran ok. Not only did it have that many miles on it , they were HARD miles as well, with little or no maintenance. I don't give a darn on warm & fuzzy, just the facts please
#ad. And by the way, you CAN'T do a rebuild on a Cummins, let alone a good one for $1600. I spent over $3000 in OEM Cummins parts alone and another $800 in valve train and machine work.
Kyle
------------------
1985 DODGE 1 ton Crew Cab(imported from California with no rust) W/8' box converted to 4X4 in 1999. Converted to a non-intercooled 1991 Cummins Turbo diesel & rebuilt 5 speed Getrag in 2001(wife can't drive a stick
#ad. Freshly rebuilt and Balanced Cummins, Rebuilt NP205, Rebuilt Injector pump and tweaked, Matched Injectors, 3" New Mandrel Bent Exhaust,no muffler, Borgeson Steering Shaft, K&N Air Filter, 4:10 gears, limited slip rear end, 16" Goodyear GSA Wranglers, 16K Reese 5th Wheel Hitch,and LE Package and a Sony CD Stereo. Next add-on some “Banks” toys ! If you want to know why I did all of this, 2 kids, one on the way and I can't stand F**d and Ch**y. Kyle Hoover ,Fruitport, MI.
[This message has been edited by CrewCabDiesel (edited 03-15-2001). ]
Conleyjo,
I'm the biggest idiot I know, because I keep responding to the same old questions over and over.
Can Synthetics make your engine last an extra 100K? Frankly, I don't really know, because I've never owned a vehicle long enough to kill the engine.
Here's what I do know:
I don't have enough miles on the Cummins to have give you sufficient numbers. SO. . lets use my 90' Acura integra with 223,000 miles.
I average about 30K miles a year.
Average fuel economy for first 50K miles using Valvoline 10w-40 (28MPG). Changed every 7,500 miles per the Acura manual.
Average fuel economy after switching to AMSOIL 10w-40 @50K miles (29MPG)
Obviously fuel prices have increased over the years, so lets use $1. 50 as a good average number.
Costs during first 50K miles (Valvoline)
30K/28MPG=1,071 gallons of fuel used annually. 1,071*$1. 50=$1,606. 50 annual fuel costs.
5 quarts(@$1. 20)+ filter($8)=$14. 00*4=$56. 00 annual lube costs. (I change oil myself, and I always seem to work for free. . nor do I have anything else I could be doing)
Therefore, my annual cost of using valvoline averaged $1,663.
Cost of using AMSOIL after first 50K miles)
30K/29MPG=1034 gallons used annually. 1034*$1. 50=$1,551 annual fuel cost.
5 quarts(@$5)+ filter($8)=$33*2=$66. 00 annual lube costs. (Like I said, I change oil myself, and work for free... with nothing better to do with my time)
Fuel costs:
Valvoline annual fuel costs=$1,606/AMSOIL annual fuel costs=$1,551
Oil costs:
Valvoline=$56 annually (every 7,500 miles)/AMSOIL=$66 annually (every 15K miles)
Totals:
Valvoline=$1,662, AMSOIL=$1,617 difference of $45
Those are actual numbers. BUT, lets say for a moment than you don't believe in extended intervals. AMSOIL would have cost me a whole $21. 00 more than Valvoline over the course of a year. Keep in mind Labor was considered free in this example. .
Additionally, Did I mention that the little 4 popper had 173K miles of 15K oil change intervals... And it still doesn't use any oil between changes.
Kind proves that 3k intervals are a waste of money and time. .
------------------
98. 5' 24v 2500 Auto/3. 54 4x4 SB QC 285-75-16's on Alcoa's. Everything but leather. PIAA 1200's, AMSOIL dual filter relocation system, Smittybuilt Stainless Steel Nerfs, Rhino Liner(Junk), K&N air filter(For Sale)15 year AMSOIL dealer. Time permitting, Soon to include Ultra-lite Pyro,0-50lbs boost, Trans temp in the pillar. Rancho 9000's with in cab adjustment.
I'm the biggest idiot I know, because I keep responding to the same old questions over and over.
Can Synthetics make your engine last an extra 100K? Frankly, I don't really know, because I've never owned a vehicle long enough to kill the engine.
Here's what I do know:
I don't have enough miles on the Cummins to have give you sufficient numbers. SO. . lets use my 90' Acura integra with 223,000 miles.
I average about 30K miles a year.
Average fuel economy for first 50K miles using Valvoline 10w-40 (28MPG). Changed every 7,500 miles per the Acura manual.
Average fuel economy after switching to AMSOIL 10w-40 @50K miles (29MPG)
Obviously fuel prices have increased over the years, so lets use $1. 50 as a good average number.
Costs during first 50K miles (Valvoline)
30K/28MPG=1,071 gallons of fuel used annually. 1,071*$1. 50=$1,606. 50 annual fuel costs.
5 quarts(@$1. 20)+ filter($8)=$14. 00*4=$56. 00 annual lube costs. (I change oil myself, and I always seem to work for free. . nor do I have anything else I could be doing)
Therefore, my annual cost of using valvoline averaged $1,663.
Cost of using AMSOIL after first 50K miles)
30K/29MPG=1034 gallons used annually. 1034*$1. 50=$1,551 annual fuel cost.
5 quarts(@$5)+ filter($8)=$33*2=$66. 00 annual lube costs. (Like I said, I change oil myself, and work for free... with nothing better to do with my time)
Fuel costs:
Valvoline annual fuel costs=$1,606/AMSOIL annual fuel costs=$1,551
Oil costs:
Valvoline=$56 annually (every 7,500 miles)/AMSOIL=$66 annually (every 15K miles)
Totals:
Valvoline=$1,662, AMSOIL=$1,617 difference of $45
Those are actual numbers. BUT, lets say for a moment than you don't believe in extended intervals. AMSOIL would have cost me a whole $21. 00 more than Valvoline over the course of a year. Keep in mind Labor was considered free in this example. .
Additionally, Did I mention that the little 4 popper had 173K miles of 15K oil change intervals... And it still doesn't use any oil between changes.
Kind proves that 3k intervals are a waste of money and time. .
------------------
98. 5' 24v 2500 Auto/3. 54 4x4 SB QC 285-75-16's on Alcoa's. Everything but leather. PIAA 1200's, AMSOIL dual filter relocation system, Smittybuilt Stainless Steel Nerfs, Rhino Liner(Junk), K&N air filter(For Sale)15 year AMSOIL dealer. Time permitting, Soon to include Ultra-lite Pyro,0-50lbs boost, Trans temp in the pillar. Rancho 9000's with in cab adjustment.
Seems like there are 2 different discussions here. Conleyjo's original quesion is related to comparing 2 brands of 100% synthetic oils. And not related to a cost/benefit analysis of synthetics versus dino.
On the first.
- One of the first replies here was Mobil 1 may not be rated for Cummins engines. In have read this in many other post too.
- So how many choices are there for 100% synthetic oils that ARE rated for our trucks?
- My comment above was simply that Mobil 1 at wallmart costs the same as Amsoil at the special group rate. So why not use it over Mobil 1, if it costs the same and is rated for use in our trucks.
On the second.
- So far Gary is right that no one has provided proof that the engines have less wear or get longer life.
- Conleyjo brings up the reason I AM switching to synthetic oils on my next change. Extended drain intervals.
- A factor I think Gary should look into on his cost analysis. You do not have to run the same drain intervals.
- Not just Amsoils says this. Call your local JiffyLube ( for example ) and see that the drain interval is on their $25 dino change versus the $50 synthetic change. Last time I called it was 3k versus 6k.
Another note.
Many who use synthetics send in samples. You can extend you drain intervals further by having your oil analized and only changing when appropriate. So... .
My personal goal ( I know YOU dont care ).
To change the oil once a year. 18K for my truck. Change the filter every 6K and do a sample every 6K when the filter is done. -- Will see how it goes, the samples will tell. Many are doing similar, so I'm gonna give it a shot.
My cost analysis.
Then way I see it is, 14qts synthetic oil ( 11 + 3 for the 2 filter changes ), 3 filters, and 2 sample kits per year is better than 66qts dino oil and 6 filters per year. The latter is based on 18K and the standard 3K oil change.
* I spend aprox the same money.
* I spend less time under my truck
* Send less money to the overseas
* Keep more money in the USA
* Pour less waste into the environment
* Probably lots of other good reasons for extented intervals.
My switching has nothing to do with how long the engine lasts. If it does last longer, then great. I am going for less hassle and time, for similar costs. If the lab results tell me I have to change more often, then I will recompute and see.
------------------
1997 2500 4x4, CC, Auto, 3. 54 LSD, 66K, Everything inc Leather, K&N, 4" BD cat-back, otherwise stock, Isspro Gauges(3), 285/75/16 on Alcola's, RS9000's, Canopy, BedLiner, and tons more.
[This message has been edited by SlyBones (edited 03-15-2001). ]
On the first.
- One of the first replies here was Mobil 1 may not be rated for Cummins engines. In have read this in many other post too.
- So how many choices are there for 100% synthetic oils that ARE rated for our trucks?
- My comment above was simply that Mobil 1 at wallmart costs the same as Amsoil at the special group rate. So why not use it over Mobil 1, if it costs the same and is rated for use in our trucks.
On the second.
- So far Gary is right that no one has provided proof that the engines have less wear or get longer life.
- Conleyjo brings up the reason I AM switching to synthetic oils on my next change. Extended drain intervals.
- A factor I think Gary should look into on his cost analysis. You do not have to run the same drain intervals.
- Not just Amsoils says this. Call your local JiffyLube ( for example ) and see that the drain interval is on their $25 dino change versus the $50 synthetic change. Last time I called it was 3k versus 6k.
Another note.
Many who use synthetics send in samples. You can extend you drain intervals further by having your oil analized and only changing when appropriate. So... .
My personal goal ( I know YOU dont care ).
To change the oil once a year. 18K for my truck. Change the filter every 6K and do a sample every 6K when the filter is done. -- Will see how it goes, the samples will tell. Many are doing similar, so I'm gonna give it a shot.
My cost analysis.
Then way I see it is, 14qts synthetic oil ( 11 + 3 for the 2 filter changes ), 3 filters, and 2 sample kits per year is better than 66qts dino oil and 6 filters per year. The latter is based on 18K and the standard 3K oil change.
* I spend aprox the same money.
* I spend less time under my truck
* Send less money to the overseas
* Keep more money in the USA
* Pour less waste into the environment
* Probably lots of other good reasons for extented intervals.
My switching has nothing to do with how long the engine lasts. If it does last longer, then great. I am going for less hassle and time, for similar costs. If the lab results tell me I have to change more often, then I will recompute and see.
------------------
1997 2500 4x4, CC, Auto, 3. 54 LSD, 66K, Everything inc Leather, K&N, 4" BD cat-back, otherwise stock, Isspro Gauges(3), 285/75/16 on Alcola's, RS9000's, Canopy, BedLiner, and tons more.
[This message has been edited by SlyBones (edited 03-15-2001). ]
Gentlemen,
Good questions. Let me start out by identifying myself. I am the Amsoil Dealer that runs the banner ad on this site. As you can tell, I don't hawk the oil on the site. I provide information when asked usually through the banner ad. Once in a while a discussion like this comes up and I feel compelled to enter in the discussion. So with that being said let me get to the questions.
First off all synthetics are not created equal! It's true, or used to be true, that they were all created by synthesizing lightweight molecules into heavy weight molecules. There are now basically three types of synthetic basestocks in use; Polyalphaolefins (PAO), Esters and Hydrocracked. Esters are further broken down into Di-Basic and Polyol. So right from the get go its apparent that even the basestocks are not the same much less the additive packages. Each of these basestocks have advantages and disadvantages. PAO's are used by most major oil companies where Esters are more likely found in use by the independents. Hydrocracked is glorified petroleum that has slipped through the cracks as a synthetic. No mistake about it, Hydrocracked is superior to all other petroleums in the market but it doesn't stand up to the performance of PAO's or Esters. There was a major spat between Mobile and Castrol on this issue that was previously discussed on this forum.
PAO's offer excellent performance over wide ranges of temperature. Esters however are superior at higher temps where PAO's will pour at lower temps. Esters can be made in almost a limitless number of molecular shapes where PAO's are made from cookie cutter patterns and always will look the same. Hydrocracked is a refining process and can vary in quality from almost regular petroleum to approximating some of the PAO qualities. The problem with Hydrocracked quality is there are no requirements to tell the consumer which quality of Hydrocracked you get.
With this background of basestocks lets move on to how and what we want the engine oil to do. Oil performs three major functions in the combustion engine; it has to lubricate, clean and cool.
Lubrication is composed of the strength of the basestock and the antiwear additives providing a film strength to separate the moving metallic parts. Film strength is measured by the Four-Ball wear test. Synthetic oils have higher film strengths than all petroleum oils and the differences between the synthetics are also pronounced.
Cleaning is the ability of the oil to remove and transport carbon waste from the combustion process to the filter for removal. Also, the oil should not deposit varnish or sludge, which would contribute to engine operational problems.
Cooling is ability of the oil to remove up to 40% of the heat generated by the engine. Remember the lower end of the engine is only cooled by oil; there are no water passages to remove the heat.
The reason I bring all this into play is its impossible to evaluate the performance of an oil if we don't know what it is supposed to do. Now let's look at the differences in synthetics.
Mobile is an excellent synthetic oil. Remember, you have to meet the spec's for your Cummins diesel (CG-4 / CH-4) which eliminates Mobile One and takes you to Mobile Delvac 5W-40.
Castrol is a Hydrocracked basestock and simply doesn't measure up to the PAO or Diester synthetics
Amsoil is a complex basestock consisting of PAO and Di-Esters along with a very heavy duty additive package.
I think Valvoline is still PAO.
Now assuming the synthetics being compared have PAO or Di-Ester basestocks it is now necessary to see how the additive packages measure up. The additives must function to provide: anti-wear, anti-foaming, detergency, dispersancy, acid neutralization, corrosion control, anti-oxidants and multi-viscosity performance. Also, some oils use pour point depressants to lower the pour point of the oils in cold weather.
So, how do we know how well a specific oil performs on all these requirements? We have to fall back on standardized test that measure those qualities and performance. The organization that designs and standardizes the tests is the American Society for Testing Materials. Some of the testing is as follows:
Four-Ball wear test: measures the film strength of the oil. Film strength is the ability of the oil to separate metals under load.
Noack Volatility (DIN51581) measures how easily the oil boils off. This is important to gauge how quickly oil will thicken during use.
Viscosity: measures how easily the oil flows or how thick it is. Viscosity is very important to insure the proper film strength to prevent wear. (measured for all oils at 212*F)
Viscosity Index: how much does oil vary viscosity with respect to temperature? This is represented by an index number and the higher the number the better the oil.
Pour Point: The lowest temperature the oil will pour.
Flash Point: Temperature at which the oil begins flashing off.
Fire Point: point at which the oil begins to burn.
High Temperature / High Shear Viscosity: the viscosity of the oil in a high temp situation and its ability to resist shearing.
Anti Foaming: Measures the ability of the oil to resist foaming.
TBN (total base number): the ability of the oil to neutralize acid.
There are other tests that can be run but these are the main ones for our discussion. When comparing oils using these tests it is imperative to test apples to apples and not fall into the trap of comparing different products. For example, you can't look at gear lubes vs engine oils etc. , they are different oils with different jobs to do.
I'm sorry that this is so long but this is not a simple process. It was said in this thread that, "who cares about some scratch and smell test. " Well, unfortunately, in the real world of chemistry and engineering we have to use tests to evaluate the quality.
When you compare the synthetic oils Amsoil comes out on top. We have the best Four-Ball wear test, very high Hi-Temp / High Shear numbers, the best anti foaming numbers, very high TBN, the lowest Noack Volatility numbers. Amsoil temperature ranges are as good as it gets with very low pour points and very high flash points.
You ask about field test or actual driving test. Amsoil has conducted several over the years. We ran the first New York taxi cab test and it proved the very low wear results with Amsoil over a 25,000 mile test without changing the oil.
In the TDR magazine you will see the ad for Amsoil with the graphs for wear in the ad. These numbers are impressive on oil that had been run for 409,000 miles without a change.
In the end it comes down to what a person thinks is over kill! I like to think of over kill as looking at a situation and figuring where you want to be. For example, when facing a charging bull elephant would you be happy with a 30 cal Winchester or an 8-gauge elephant gun. You can probably stop the elephant with the 30 cal if you can hit the vital spot but you know you have a much better chance with the 8-gauge.
Amsoil is the best oil in the market according to ASTM testing and extensive field testing. Whether it is worth the money is in the eye of the beholder. Considering the proven extended drains reducing the cost to equal to or less than petroleum and the considerable reserve for unexpected conditions (over heating etc), Amsoil is a bargain. All this being said it is still possible to have decent performance with standard petroleum oils as long as you don't mind the endless changes required.
For more numbers and info just click on my Amsoil banner on this site and go to my website. I'm still building so if you want more data than is on the site just email me and I will send it out.
Dan Watson
AdvancedLubeTech
Good questions. Let me start out by identifying myself. I am the Amsoil Dealer that runs the banner ad on this site. As you can tell, I don't hawk the oil on the site. I provide information when asked usually through the banner ad. Once in a while a discussion like this comes up and I feel compelled to enter in the discussion. So with that being said let me get to the questions.
First off all synthetics are not created equal! It's true, or used to be true, that they were all created by synthesizing lightweight molecules into heavy weight molecules. There are now basically three types of synthetic basestocks in use; Polyalphaolefins (PAO), Esters and Hydrocracked. Esters are further broken down into Di-Basic and Polyol. So right from the get go its apparent that even the basestocks are not the same much less the additive packages. Each of these basestocks have advantages and disadvantages. PAO's are used by most major oil companies where Esters are more likely found in use by the independents. Hydrocracked is glorified petroleum that has slipped through the cracks as a synthetic. No mistake about it, Hydrocracked is superior to all other petroleums in the market but it doesn't stand up to the performance of PAO's or Esters. There was a major spat between Mobile and Castrol on this issue that was previously discussed on this forum.
PAO's offer excellent performance over wide ranges of temperature. Esters however are superior at higher temps where PAO's will pour at lower temps. Esters can be made in almost a limitless number of molecular shapes where PAO's are made from cookie cutter patterns and always will look the same. Hydrocracked is a refining process and can vary in quality from almost regular petroleum to approximating some of the PAO qualities. The problem with Hydrocracked quality is there are no requirements to tell the consumer which quality of Hydrocracked you get.
With this background of basestocks lets move on to how and what we want the engine oil to do. Oil performs three major functions in the combustion engine; it has to lubricate, clean and cool.
Lubrication is composed of the strength of the basestock and the antiwear additives providing a film strength to separate the moving metallic parts. Film strength is measured by the Four-Ball wear test. Synthetic oils have higher film strengths than all petroleum oils and the differences between the synthetics are also pronounced.
Cleaning is the ability of the oil to remove and transport carbon waste from the combustion process to the filter for removal. Also, the oil should not deposit varnish or sludge, which would contribute to engine operational problems.
Cooling is ability of the oil to remove up to 40% of the heat generated by the engine. Remember the lower end of the engine is only cooled by oil; there are no water passages to remove the heat.
The reason I bring all this into play is its impossible to evaluate the performance of an oil if we don't know what it is supposed to do. Now let's look at the differences in synthetics.
Mobile is an excellent synthetic oil. Remember, you have to meet the spec's for your Cummins diesel (CG-4 / CH-4) which eliminates Mobile One and takes you to Mobile Delvac 5W-40.
Castrol is a Hydrocracked basestock and simply doesn't measure up to the PAO or Diester synthetics
Amsoil is a complex basestock consisting of PAO and Di-Esters along with a very heavy duty additive package.
I think Valvoline is still PAO.
Now assuming the synthetics being compared have PAO or Di-Ester basestocks it is now necessary to see how the additive packages measure up. The additives must function to provide: anti-wear, anti-foaming, detergency, dispersancy, acid neutralization, corrosion control, anti-oxidants and multi-viscosity performance. Also, some oils use pour point depressants to lower the pour point of the oils in cold weather.
So, how do we know how well a specific oil performs on all these requirements? We have to fall back on standardized test that measure those qualities and performance. The organization that designs and standardizes the tests is the American Society for Testing Materials. Some of the testing is as follows:
Four-Ball wear test: measures the film strength of the oil. Film strength is the ability of the oil to separate metals under load.
Noack Volatility (DIN51581) measures how easily the oil boils off. This is important to gauge how quickly oil will thicken during use.
Viscosity: measures how easily the oil flows or how thick it is. Viscosity is very important to insure the proper film strength to prevent wear. (measured for all oils at 212*F)
Viscosity Index: how much does oil vary viscosity with respect to temperature? This is represented by an index number and the higher the number the better the oil.
Pour Point: The lowest temperature the oil will pour.
Flash Point: Temperature at which the oil begins flashing off.
Fire Point: point at which the oil begins to burn.
High Temperature / High Shear Viscosity: the viscosity of the oil in a high temp situation and its ability to resist shearing.
Anti Foaming: Measures the ability of the oil to resist foaming.
TBN (total base number): the ability of the oil to neutralize acid.
There are other tests that can be run but these are the main ones for our discussion. When comparing oils using these tests it is imperative to test apples to apples and not fall into the trap of comparing different products. For example, you can't look at gear lubes vs engine oils etc. , they are different oils with different jobs to do.
I'm sorry that this is so long but this is not a simple process. It was said in this thread that, "who cares about some scratch and smell test. " Well, unfortunately, in the real world of chemistry and engineering we have to use tests to evaluate the quality.
When you compare the synthetic oils Amsoil comes out on top. We have the best Four-Ball wear test, very high Hi-Temp / High Shear numbers, the best anti foaming numbers, very high TBN, the lowest Noack Volatility numbers. Amsoil temperature ranges are as good as it gets with very low pour points and very high flash points.
You ask about field test or actual driving test. Amsoil has conducted several over the years. We ran the first New York taxi cab test and it proved the very low wear results with Amsoil over a 25,000 mile test without changing the oil.
In the TDR magazine you will see the ad for Amsoil with the graphs for wear in the ad. These numbers are impressive on oil that had been run for 409,000 miles without a change.
In the end it comes down to what a person thinks is over kill! I like to think of over kill as looking at a situation and figuring where you want to be. For example, when facing a charging bull elephant would you be happy with a 30 cal Winchester or an 8-gauge elephant gun. You can probably stop the elephant with the 30 cal if you can hit the vital spot but you know you have a much better chance with the 8-gauge.
Amsoil is the best oil in the market according to ASTM testing and extensive field testing. Whether it is worth the money is in the eye of the beholder. Considering the proven extended drains reducing the cost to equal to or less than petroleum and the considerable reserve for unexpected conditions (over heating etc), Amsoil is a bargain. All this being said it is still possible to have decent performance with standard petroleum oils as long as you don't mind the endless changes required.
For more numbers and info just click on my Amsoil banner on this site and go to my website. I'm still building so if you want more data than is on the site just email me and I will send it out.
Dan Watson
AdvancedLubeTech
Dan, thanks for the info on the differnt types of synthetic oil.
I have often wondered if Amsoil is such great oil then why is not certified by the API? How about possible warrenty issues raised by using an oil that does not have the API donut? TIA
------------------
1997 2500 SLT 4X4,5 spd,3. 54's,Pacbrake,Rancho 9000's,Centerforce,K&N,Isspro,TST #11(280hp/680tq),AFC medium spring, Jardine 4", 370's and 16cm housing.
I have often wondered if Amsoil is such great oil then why is not certified by the API? How about possible warrenty issues raised by using an oil that does not have the API donut? TIA
------------------
1997 2500 SLT 4X4,5 spd,3. 54's,Pacbrake,Rancho 9000's,Centerforce,K&N,Isspro,TST #11(280hp/680tq),AFC medium spring, Jardine 4", 370's and 16cm housing.
There is such a misunderstanding about the API donut and licensing. Those are simply the API's method of raising revenue. The standards are posted by the API. This means that a series of certifying test are established by the API to meet OEM specifications. When an oil company test it's oil and is satisfied it meets the requirements then they wubmit the results to the API. For a fee the API then licenses the oil. Amsoil submits the oil to an independent lab who certifies the oil meets the test requirements. The API only recently begin the licensing program to "ensure the quality of oil. " The interesting thing is that the API accepts in house testing for this process and doesn't reqiure independent testing. For independent lube manufacturers the use of independent labs is a more stringent requirement to meet the spec's. Also, the OEM's warranty only specifies the oil must meet the API spec's not be licensed. They can't quite get away with that abuse of power under federeal law.
Dan Watson
AdvancedLubeTech
Dan Watson
AdvancedLubeTech
TIM sez:
"Gary,
Are you saying that the cost of synthetics makes sense only in cars that are not driven much?"
I wondered if anyone would pick up on that one...
#ad
NO, only that the relative EXPENSE over time is considerably less for the vehicles specified. My '98 Camaro SS only has 7500 miles on it so far, so oil cost isn't really much of a concern! My restored '70 Caddy convertible has only put on about 2000 miles in the same time period, so same rationale applies there as well - I use synthetic oil in THOSE engines because it will oxidize less during long periods of just sitting in my garage, and remain usable in those unique situations better than conventional oils, and STILL be relatively inexpensive - unlike the MUCH larger Cummins, which needs more oil per change and racks up the miles enough faster to eat up the $$$$ at a more serious rate.
ALSO, keep in mind that *I* am nearly 65 years old, it's taken 10 years to put 107,000 miles on my Cummins, and most of THOSE miles were daily commute to work and long RV trips BEFORE I retired. Currently, annual mileage will be significantly less, and IF the Cummins can be counted upon to deliver at least 400,000 miles of service even with conventional oils, I would have to live to be more than 95 years old just to wear it out!
SOOooo - it's REAL hard to generate enough enthusiasm to spend the extra dough just so someone who outlives me gets a better truck to drive!#ad
#ad
Dan Watson up above, has given some info on the subject, including lots of techno-babble (no offense intended Dan, the info is fine, just doesn't give the average user the real-world info THIS thread is about!) that STILL avoids even the SLIGHTEST reference as to typical ADDITIONAL MILEAGE or PERCENTAGE of increased life we can reliably expect from our engines if we use Amsoil instead of something like Delo 400... Hell, we don't drive no steeenking "4 ball-powered" trucks, they ARE Cummins diesels, and we want to know about wear reduction in THEM, not some piece of lab equipment!
WHY is it SO DERN HARD for one of the synthetic salespeople in this group to step up to the plate and SAY:
"Use our stuff, and you can FULLY EXPECT to obtain 30% more useful life out of your engine than you will from conventional dino oils... "
THEN, WE can do the math of cost vs benefit in OUR specific situation, and decide intelligently if it's worth it! WHY can't YOU do that Dan?
------------------
http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...
[This message has been edited by Gary - KJ6Q (edited 03-15-2001). ]
"Gary,
Are you saying that the cost of synthetics makes sense only in cars that are not driven much?"
I wondered if anyone would pick up on that one...
#adNO, only that the relative EXPENSE over time is considerably less for the vehicles specified. My '98 Camaro SS only has 7500 miles on it so far, so oil cost isn't really much of a concern! My restored '70 Caddy convertible has only put on about 2000 miles in the same time period, so same rationale applies there as well - I use synthetic oil in THOSE engines because it will oxidize less during long periods of just sitting in my garage, and remain usable in those unique situations better than conventional oils, and STILL be relatively inexpensive - unlike the MUCH larger Cummins, which needs more oil per change and racks up the miles enough faster to eat up the $$$$ at a more serious rate.
ALSO, keep in mind that *I* am nearly 65 years old, it's taken 10 years to put 107,000 miles on my Cummins, and most of THOSE miles were daily commute to work and long RV trips BEFORE I retired. Currently, annual mileage will be significantly less, and IF the Cummins can be counted upon to deliver at least 400,000 miles of service even with conventional oils, I would have to live to be more than 95 years old just to wear it out!
SOOooo - it's REAL hard to generate enough enthusiasm to spend the extra dough just so someone who outlives me gets a better truck to drive!
#ad#adDan Watson up above, has given some info on the subject, including lots of techno-babble (no offense intended Dan, the info is fine, just doesn't give the average user the real-world info THIS thread is about!) that STILL avoids even the SLIGHTEST reference as to typical ADDITIONAL MILEAGE or PERCENTAGE of increased life we can reliably expect from our engines if we use Amsoil instead of something like Delo 400... Hell, we don't drive no steeenking "4 ball-powered" trucks, they ARE Cummins diesels, and we want to know about wear reduction in THEM, not some piece of lab equipment!
WHY is it SO DERN HARD for one of the synthetic salespeople in this group to step up to the plate and SAY:
"Use our stuff, and you can FULLY EXPECT to obtain 30% more useful life out of your engine than you will from conventional dino oils... "
THEN, WE can do the math of cost vs benefit in OUR specific situation, and decide intelligently if it's worth it! WHY can't YOU do that Dan?
------------------
http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...
[This message has been edited by Gary - KJ6Q (edited 03-15-2001). ]
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks,Dan,
No one types technical crap as eloquently as you do!
Gene
No one types technical crap as eloquently as you do!
Gene
Gary,
I can't tell you how much longer your truck may last with synthetic vs petroleum. I can speculate how the wear rate might increase life. You see its like tires; just because you buy an 80,000 mile radial doesn't mean you will get 80,000 miles. A lot depends on how you drive and whether you keep the tires inflated. Now here are some numbers from fleet testing.
Grocery Warehouse Fleet:
Diesel Trucks
Extended drain intervals to 74,000 miles
Reduced Iron wear by 57%
Reduced Chrome wear by 31%
Over the Road Flatbed Fleet
Diesel Trucks
Extended Oil Drains to 79,000 miles
Reduced Iron wear by 52%
Reduced Chrome wear by 73%
Reduced Copper wear by 78%
Reduced Aluminum wear by 73%
These test were run by the companies using used oil analysis by an independent lab.
Even with these numbers I wouldn't be able to specifically say how much increased life you might get. It does seem obvious that you are going to get less wear. You might crank your truck up tomorrow and brake a crank or snap a rod. Those failures are not wear related but they are certainly failures.
Now the Dan Watson crystal ball says the trucks are designed to go at least 400K on conventional oil and I believe you can safely double that with Amsoil. We are talking about wear only not other unrelated failures. Another issue is if you are getting more power from your truck by after market add ons. Now you may begin to shorten the life with conventional oils because they are opertating so close to their limits. Additionally, if you are working the truck at its limit you will probably not get the rated life with petroleum oils.
so thats the best for now I'll try to add more later.
Dan Watson
AdvancedLubeTech
[This message has been edited by Dan Watson (edited 03-15-2001). ]
I can't tell you how much longer your truck may last with synthetic vs petroleum. I can speculate how the wear rate might increase life. You see its like tires; just because you buy an 80,000 mile radial doesn't mean you will get 80,000 miles. A lot depends on how you drive and whether you keep the tires inflated. Now here are some numbers from fleet testing.
Grocery Warehouse Fleet:
Diesel Trucks
Extended drain intervals to 74,000 miles
Reduced Iron wear by 57%
Reduced Chrome wear by 31%
Over the Road Flatbed Fleet
Diesel Trucks
Extended Oil Drains to 79,000 miles
Reduced Iron wear by 52%
Reduced Chrome wear by 73%
Reduced Copper wear by 78%
Reduced Aluminum wear by 73%
These test were run by the companies using used oil analysis by an independent lab.
Even with these numbers I wouldn't be able to specifically say how much increased life you might get. It does seem obvious that you are going to get less wear. You might crank your truck up tomorrow and brake a crank or snap a rod. Those failures are not wear related but they are certainly failures.
Now the Dan Watson crystal ball says the trucks are designed to go at least 400K on conventional oil and I believe you can safely double that with Amsoil. We are talking about wear only not other unrelated failures. Another issue is if you are getting more power from your truck by after market add ons. Now you may begin to shorten the life with conventional oils because they are opertating so close to their limits. Additionally, if you are working the truck at its limit you will probably not get the rated life with petroleum oils.
so thats the best for now I'll try to add more later.
Dan Watson
AdvancedLubeTech
[This message has been edited by Dan Watson (edited 03-15-2001). ]
Grocery Warehouse Fleet:
Diesel Trucks
Extended drain intervals to 74,000 miles
Reduced Iron wear by 57%
Reduced Chrome wear by 31%
Over the Road Flatbed Fleet
Diesel Trucks
Extended Oil Drains to 79,000 miles
Reduced Iron wear by 52%
Reduced Chrome wear by 73%
Reduced Copper wear by 78%
Reduced Aluminum wear by 73%
Over what time frame was the reduction of wear measured? Was this 79000 miles on Petroleum based oil with Synthetic as the control specimin? How were the results gathered, were the Main Journals measured? was the piston ring end gap measured? Obviously if petroleum oil was run for an extended drain interval of 79000 miles there would be some sludge and other stuff. The only way I would run any oil for 79000 miles is if I has a Sharples lube oil purifier in the bed of my truck hooked to the sump of the engine.
I have seen what synthetic oil does under severe heat and load, with no purification and only filtration, it is not pretty! goes from slight yellow to carmel to black with a lot of sludge. The sludge and soluable impurities can only be separated by mechanical means or batch purified in a heated sump.
Diesel Trucks
Extended drain intervals to 74,000 miles
Reduced Iron wear by 57%
Reduced Chrome wear by 31%
Over the Road Flatbed Fleet
Diesel Trucks
Extended Oil Drains to 79,000 miles
Reduced Iron wear by 52%
Reduced Chrome wear by 73%
Reduced Copper wear by 78%
Reduced Aluminum wear by 73%
Over what time frame was the reduction of wear measured? Was this 79000 miles on Petroleum based oil with Synthetic as the control specimin? How were the results gathered, were the Main Journals measured? was the piston ring end gap measured? Obviously if petroleum oil was run for an extended drain interval of 79000 miles there would be some sludge and other stuff. The only way I would run any oil for 79000 miles is if I has a Sharples lube oil purifier in the bed of my truck hooked to the sump of the engine.
I have seen what synthetic oil does under severe heat and load, with no purification and only filtration, it is not pretty! goes from slight yellow to carmel to black with a lot of sludge. The sludge and soluable impurities can only be separated by mechanical means or batch purified in a heated sump.
Dan, excellent information! I use Amsoil amd i knew it was good but I had never really understood it like that. By the way I had a VW jetta that used amsoil 10-40 since 50K mi and it just died in a little crash still running stong with nothing but oil chages every 6K wit 410K mi. not bad!
98. 5 24V, 5sp,Bd Brake, Exhaust, powermod, 275 injectors,gauges, 315's on alloys rancho 9's.
98. 5 24V, 5sp,Bd Brake, Exhaust, powermod, 275 injectors,gauges, 315's on alloys rancho 9's.
Good question. The figures are computed in ppm per mile. This allows for the different drain intervals on the oils. In other words the Amsoil ran for 79,000 miles and the conventional oil was drained at the normal interval (not sure if that was 10,000 miles which is normal for large diesel trucks). The use of the per mile is the way to compare apples to apples on the wear considering the different drain interval. These test are on my www.AdvancedLubeTech.com site which you can reach by clicking on my banner ad on this site. Just go to diesel info and read the brochure.
Dan Watson
Dan Watson
call up Dan at http://advancedlubetech.com/index.html
(he has one of the banners on TDR)
and ask him for the detail papers. There is plenty of compairsons of Amsoil to other synthetics on there "white papers". Its only fair to compair Amsoil to other synthetics, not dino oil. From what I am seeing, there is a big difference between all synthetics, in the amount and quality of additives they put in them.
I am not an Amsoil dealer, just a user.
(he has one of the banners on TDR)
and ask him for the detail papers. There is plenty of compairsons of Amsoil to other synthetics on there "white papers". Its only fair to compair Amsoil to other synthetics, not dino oil. From what I am seeing, there is a big difference between all synthetics, in the amount and quality of additives they put in them.
I am not an Amsoil dealer, just a user.
A question for Dan (you've already admitted you have a crystal ball; you'll probably need it to answer this question):
If the general rule of thumb for post-turbo temperature shutdown is 300 degrees, what temperature could I shut down at using Amsoil HDD 5W-30 and still not have to worry about coking my bearings or other damage?
I know this sounds like a loaded question, but I'm dead serious. One of the reasons I use synthetic products is because in the summer I have to idle up to 10 minutes or more to get down to 300. This is not acceptable to me. I don't expect to pull into the lot and immediately shut it off like a non-turbo, and Cummins says the idle stabizes all engine part temperatures, not just the turbo. But I really want to know, do you think a 400 degree Amsoil shut-down is equal to a 300 degree rotella shutdown? How about 375? 350? Or do I still have to cool to 300 to prevent warping the turbo during the cooldown?
If the general rule of thumb for post-turbo temperature shutdown is 300 degrees, what temperature could I shut down at using Amsoil HDD 5W-30 and still not have to worry about coking my bearings or other damage?
I know this sounds like a loaded question, but I'm dead serious. One of the reasons I use synthetic products is because in the summer I have to idle up to 10 minutes or more to get down to 300. This is not acceptable to me. I don't expect to pull into the lot and immediately shut it off like a non-turbo, and Cummins says the idle stabizes all engine part temperatures, not just the turbo. But I really want to know, do you think a 400 degree Amsoil shut-down is equal to a 300 degree rotella shutdown? How about 375? 350? Or do I still have to cool to 300 to prevent warping the turbo during the cooldown?
"reading through this thread I'm thinking to myself... DAMNN these guys who are DEMANDING proof have the same computers that everyone else has. . do your own research and quit demanding . . if you can type you can research. . ya sound like a bunch of sniveling children no matter what your age"
THAT outburst was neither necessary, or in keeping with the character of this group!
ANY person here making a strong and serious CLAIM had best be prepared to back it up or at least qualify it as purely PERSONAL opinion - and it IS the one MAKING the claim that is recognized as being obligated to back it up, NOT the one QUESTIONING it! If *I* claim the ability to do 200 non-stop pushups, it's ME that had better be able to "prove it", NOT someone ELSE!
Some here ARE willing to specify that they use various products entirely because it makes them FEEL more secure with their use - and that's fine, as LONG AS they don't start preaching facts and benefits NOT in existence, and it's NOT the duty of challengers to provide countering proof, tho' they frequently do. *I* use STP in my oil changes, because my *personal opinion* is that it will provide an additional cushion of protection in extreme operating conditions - I've had a few such circumstances, and my hardware has survived as hoped and expected, but I have no "proof" the STP was directly responsible, and am not ABOUT to make such a claim when I can't back it up!
ON the other hand, I also use a K&N air filter on my Cummins, and tho' SOME here claim they pass LOTS of dirt, mine has been installed for about 100,000 miles, and the inside of my intake and turbo are clean as new and oil analysis places silicon extremely low in my engine - and I am ENTIRELY prepared to "prove it" to ANYONE who wants to stop by ANYTIME and see it for themselves! *I* just made a claim, it's MY responsibility, and *I* am prepared to back it up if asked, not someone else!
------------------
http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...
THAT outburst was neither necessary, or in keeping with the character of this group!
ANY person here making a strong and serious CLAIM had best be prepared to back it up or at least qualify it as purely PERSONAL opinion - and it IS the one MAKING the claim that is recognized as being obligated to back it up, NOT the one QUESTIONING it! If *I* claim the ability to do 200 non-stop pushups, it's ME that had better be able to "prove it", NOT someone ELSE!
Some here ARE willing to specify that they use various products entirely because it makes them FEEL more secure with their use - and that's fine, as LONG AS they don't start preaching facts and benefits NOT in existence, and it's NOT the duty of challengers to provide countering proof, tho' they frequently do. *I* use STP in my oil changes, because my *personal opinion* is that it will provide an additional cushion of protection in extreme operating conditions - I've had a few such circumstances, and my hardware has survived as hoped and expected, but I have no "proof" the STP was directly responsible, and am not ABOUT to make such a claim when I can't back it up!
ON the other hand, I also use a K&N air filter on my Cummins, and tho' SOME here claim they pass LOTS of dirt, mine has been installed for about 100,000 miles, and the inside of my intake and turbo are clean as new and oil analysis places silicon extremely low in my engine - and I am ENTIRELY prepared to "prove it" to ANYONE who wants to stop by ANYTIME and see it for themselves! *I* just made a claim, it's MY responsibility, and *I* am prepared to back it up if asked, not someone else!
------------------
http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...
Last edited by a moderator:
Everybody check their blood pressure!
#ad
#ad
#ad
Let me tell you about that STP... .....#ad
[This message has been edited by MGM (edited 03-18-2001). ]
#ad#ad#adLet me tell you about that STP... .....
#ad[This message has been edited by MGM (edited 03-18-2001). ]
Ya know, this is truly a GREAT forum - and it's entirely normal for folks to get ummmm, ENTHUSIASTIC about the things they choose to place in or on their trucks - just as it is to become defensive when their product choices are questioned or attacked. After all, when you ridicule a product *I* use, you indirectly attack ME as a user of that product!
Problems crop up when either a USER or and ATTACKER resort to statements or claims that have no known basis in truth, independent test or other forms of documentation. I see no great harm for use of a wide variety of aftermarket products that may only create some form of personal satisfaction for the buyer - many may NOT deliver the hoped for benefit, but most probably won't do any harm either. A couple of bucks spent for "personal well-being" may be the best way yer money can be spent!
So, let's not get all cranked up over this synthetic vs dino stuff, and also be careful about making personal opinions wrapped up like proven fact - you might (rightly!) be asked to back up your claim with some form of documentation, or a pointer to where the info can be found to back your claim.
You/we have a right to be enthusiastic about stuff WE choose to buy and use, we DON'T have ANY right to expect or demand that OTHERS automatically share our belief or enthusiasm - and if we react with astounding claims and statements, we can be dern sure SOMEONE is gonna call us on what we have said!
Peace!#ad
#ad
------------------
http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...
Problems crop up when either a USER or and ATTACKER resort to statements or claims that have no known basis in truth, independent test or other forms of documentation. I see no great harm for use of a wide variety of aftermarket products that may only create some form of personal satisfaction for the buyer - many may NOT deliver the hoped for benefit, but most probably won't do any harm either. A couple of bucks spent for "personal well-being" may be the best way yer money can be spent!
So, let's not get all cranked up over this synthetic vs dino stuff, and also be careful about making personal opinions wrapped up like proven fact - you might (rightly!) be asked to back up your claim with some form of documentation, or a pointer to where the info can be found to back your claim.
You/we have a right to be enthusiastic about stuff WE choose to buy and use, we DON'T have ANY right to expect or demand that OTHERS automatically share our belief or enthusiasm - and if we react with astounding claims and statements, we can be dern sure SOMEONE is gonna call us on what we have said!
Peace!
#ad#ad------------------
http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...
Last edited by a moderator:
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
Turbo Diesel Register
Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
