Anatomy of extended oil usage and analysis

[Gary - K7GLD]

After cooling off a bit, I think I'll wait 'til the next Frantz element change at 15,000 miles, and then send that sample to CAT - I used them for testing comparison at 5000 miles up above, so their results should be usable, and better to re-sample at 15,000 miles, than wait until 20,000 miles...



And in eager anticipation of a GREAT analysis from Blackstone, here's what the oil looked like on my dipstick at 13,000 miles:



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Obviously not as clear as the 5000 mile pic - but the "safe" and "add" marks are easily readable thru the oil film...

 

[moparguy]

Gary, it'd be a shame to lose the test you've been running. Why not pull two samples on the next filter change at 15k, then one to Blackstone, one to Cat. This wouldn't compromise the current test (would allow it to continue), and be a good comparsion between the two labs.



Good luck, RJR

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Gary, thanks for the effort on this subject. Its good info. .

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Gary, it'd be a shame to lose the test you've been running. Why not pull two samples on the next filter change at 15k, then one to Blackstone, one to Cat. This wouldn't compromise the current test (would allow it to continue), and be a good comparsion between the two labs. "





Well, there's still hope the "lost" sample will turn up... In any event, at least the CAT sample/analysis will be done soon, and if I can overcome being PO'd at Blackstone, might consider sending them another as well - especially since this thread started out with a similar comparison between analysis outfits...

 

[moparguy]

Gary, I really can't read the report, but it looks like it may be ok.



RJR

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Miracle of miracles - someone at Blackstone woke up, found my sample, and I got the results via Email today!



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(look at lead posts for analysis numbers of UNused Delo for a more realistic comparison with my 13,000 mile sample!)



Only unusual anomoly is the Moly reading - a BIG jump over earlier readings - I had added 2 quarts of makeup oil in that test period due to cartridge changes in my Frantz bypass filter, wonder if the Delo I used for that is somehow different in formula - Moly is usually an anti-wear additive, and Delo is usually extremely low in that category...



Next item of interest (to me!), is the continuing LOOOooow Silicon level - remember, fresh UNused Delo runs about 3-4 ppm Silicon right outta the bottle!



The Insolubles figure also speaks well for the efficiency of the Frantz bypass filter, and pretty well verifies the clarity of the oil film on my dipstick shown a few posts up this thread - the "universal averages" numbers shown on the report over in the right-hand column are for oil changed at a NORMAL interval - and *I* am at about 400% *beyond* normal mileage in heavy service, since most of my miles are towing miles.



Where are those K&N and TP filter haters?



Next sample will be with the new BHAF installed - do any here REALLY think Silicon levels will show any noticeable Silicon improvement?



Note that Blackstone advises going longer on this oil, and that TBN is very good - not sure about TAN numbers, since they are rarely posted here - and like Blackstone, I don't have TAN numbers for fresh unused Delo to compare with anyway...



NOW, on to 20,000 miles, and the NEXT analysis! Oo. Oo.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

AH!



THIS explains the jump in Moly and Boron reading this last oil sample:



http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000240

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

The final analysis - 20,000 miles!

This is the end of my extended oil test - further down are analysis done on the Delo 400 15/40 when I reached the goal of 20,000 miles on the oil.



As pointed out in the beginning of this "test", it was done for 3 basic reasons:



1. To attempt to establish and show that you don't HAVE to use high priced synthetics to employ extended drains, as many do to recover the substantially higher cost of the synthetics.



2. To show that bypass filtration will greatly assist in normal, and extended oil usage.



3. That those nasty K&N air filters, when installed and maintained properly, WILL deliver excellent filtering capability. Ditto the Frantz toilet paper bypass oil filters.



I also want to again post the typical analysis of *NEW*, unused Delo to use as a baseline for analysis of used oil at various mileages - please be aware that during my test run, Chevron modified it's Delo formulation to include Molybdenum and Boron - excellent anti-wear additives.



From Blackstone Labs, 5/10/04

Chevron Delo 400 15W40 CI-4



Al-1

Iron-2

Lead-1

Silicon-5

Sodium-1Calcium-3476

Magnesium-6

Phos-1190

Zinc-1329



Vis@210F-80. 5

Flashpoint-450F

TBN-not tested



Compare those NEW numbers with the 20,000 mile numbers down below!



And, for those interested, you can read specs/analysis of the new virgin Delo 400 with Moly and Boron added, here:



http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000240



My intervening reports at various points are posted further above, and for this post, I am including analysis reports from both Cat and Blackstone on oil samples taken at the same 20,000 mile point.



Here's the Cat sample:



NOTE: Click on images to restore size for easiest reading!



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WOW! That's TERRIFIC - but wait, maybe a bit TOO good?



Here's the analysis done by Blackstone on the SAME oil:



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And here's what Blackstone had to say about the above analysis:

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I won't attempt a guess as to WHY Cat's analysis seems so far out in left field - I've used Cat before with results that closely tracked Blackstone's - but THIS one sure doesn't - and the Blackstone report follows along quite well as compared with the others they have done in this test. A pity in a way - I still have 2 unused prepaid Cat sample Kits available - but don't trust the Boise facility after this test. And Blackstone's prices are too high for regular use, as far as I am concerned.



Note that Silicone (dirt) percentages have been excellent in the earlier section of this test - and DID improve (at least no further increase!) after the switch to the BHAF in the last 7000 miles or so - but NOTHING to complain about with the previous K&N as far as I am concerned!



Because the Frantz TP filter I use recommends cartridge changes at about 2000 miles use, I have changed cartridges about 10 times during this run - and added the required quart of makeup oil each cartridge change - for about 10 quarts total over 20,000 miles. TP elements cost about 80 cents each - and the Delo runs me about $1. 60 a quart where I usually buy it - that's about $16 worth of oil, and about $8 for filters, plus one Fleetguard 3894 back along the line. A total of a bit over $32 in lube and filters in 20,000 miles ain't bad, as compared to "normal" changes - and MOST of those miles were pretty hard, partly RV towing, and a half-dozen well loaded trips as we made our move from California here to the new place in eastern Oregon



SO - there's the data, check it out and draw your own conclusions - but for MY money, I remain fully convinced:



You don't HAVE to use fancy high-priced synthetics for extended oil use, and combined with my GOOD bypass filter, MY oil coulda easily just kept on going, just like that "Energizer Bunny"!

 

[dodge cummins]

did anyone see the independent testing that was done about a year or 2 ago on the mobil delvac 1300? from what i remember the rigs that were in the testing drove over 300,000 miles on the original oil without changing it once. its great to hear how good these oils are but personally i will stick with my mobil delvac 1 5w40 because its still a superior oil and it does not support foreign countries oil profits.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"but personally i will stick with my mobil delvac 1 5w40 because its still a superior oil and it does not support foreign countries oil profits. "



Well, I'll certainly drop back to more frequent changes - every 12,000 miles, or every year, whichever comes first. Oil that is ANALYTICALLY clean may be OK for some here - but I still like to be able to read my dipstick thru the oil on the stick - if the stick looks that clean, chances are the innards of my engine does too! :-laf :-laf

 

[dodge cummins]

i would also think that my p7100 and my turbo like the cooling effects of a 100% synthetic also.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

i would also think that my p7100 and my turbo like the cooling effects of a 100% synthetic also.

Good synthetics certainly have some excellent benefits over and above the best of the dino oils - and extreme temp operation is one of them...

 

[dodge cummins]

one of the other reasons is also it makes it alot easier to crank her over when its 11 degrees out with a -5 windchill and shes not plugged in. i can't plug her in at work because i work for the state and the tax payers would have to pay the electric bill to keep my truck warm. i run full synthetic all year long. i have it in the engine,transmission,rear diff and soon to be transfer case.

 

[rweis]

Gary - I would like to get in on your analysis of extended oil use and I would provide a second test point with a slightly different sceanario.



I have put (this weekend) a RACOR LFS-802 bypass on my '02. I am running DELO 15W-40 like you are and will do a complete Stratapore change and oil change at my 50k mile mark.



I have been looking at some commercial testing labs for the analysis. I have to narrow down the field and see if they will take a single user on as a customer (ie not fleet customer).



My basic plan is to change the Stratapore every 5k and test every 5k, change the RACOR every 10k or 15k not sure. Also thinking of maybe drawing out 3 quarts (for a total of 4 quarts) every 5k so there is a 1/3 volume change every 5k for additive and chemical composition refreshment.



Just some ideas, but still working on a lab to do the analysis. I want to get a lab that does large fleet volume and has a couple of options as to the depth of the analysis and is affordable.



I see the cost of the Stratapore @ $9, 1 gal DELO 400 $7, 1/3 RACOR LFS-802BPE $8. 50 = $24. 50 + lab analysis $$ (not determined yet, but about $10 I think) or about the cost of a 3 gallons of DELO 400 and the Stratapore ($30) but with significantly better filtration.



Tell me what you think, or anyone tell me what you think, I am open for suggestions here. Just trying to get the best oil functionality over an extended time / mileage analysis.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Bob, I sure would be interested in your version of the same test, primarily due to the different brand of bypass filter. Your bypass (and MOST others!) apparently is specified to be changed less frequently than my Frantz - and it will be interesting to see how it's efficiency is affected by longer use in service.



But it does seem that drawing off added oil to maintain additives is sorta self defeating, both in terms of economy, as well as analysis results - I'd stick with simply adding one quart per bypass element change, unless analysis reveals a significant drop in TBN and increases TAN.



I realize that the more frequent change cycle of my Frantz and added makeup oil enhances maintenance of additives, but it ALSO provides an increased level of filtering in my opinion, and your test would help shed light on my theory.



And yeah, I realize differing engines and operating condidtions CAN slew results. Keep us posted!

 

[rweis]

I agree with you Gary, I will not draw off additional oil to renew the packages so the test will be more accurate.



Just an FYI update.



Got the LFS-802 installed mechanically this weekend. I put it on the other side of a 1/4" steel plate I have mounted up under the drivers side, front bed pocket. It is pretty big, sort of like bubble gum, the more you chew the bigger it gets . I also bought the swivel oil filler cap from OilGuard to get the oil back into the engine. Very nicely made swivel unit.



I ordered the hoses and fittings yesterday UPS ground, so should be here in about a week or so.



The drawback to the mounting location is the length of the hose run and the $$. I am using AN-6 (because all my fuel lines are AN-6 and I want to keep it all the same) which is overly large for the limited flow. However, I would rather have the filter in a very accessible mounting and plumb to it.



I found a commercial fleet oil analysis lab in Tampa that will take individual accounts. Not many of the commercial testing labs will take a small individual account. One of the reasons I went with a comercial fleet lab is you can add or subtract any specific test you want anytime. ie if you want to add any specific spectrum analysis to a particular sample one time, fine. Their prices are very reasonable as well. You order want you want in the quantaties you want. An example, I ordered 6 sample bottles . 40@ and 6 mailers . 50@. The test will run about $21. 50 @. Includes TBN as an add on test to the metals test. I sure I will tailor the testing run a little more as I learn more about this.



The first test will be a pure oil (out of the bottle) sample as a base line.



As I am new to this, any and all comments are appreciated. I know some of the TDR membership knows a lot more about this than I do.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Looks good - this should be very interesting - wonder how long you figure your total test time will be? Mine was pretty long, but was helped by the mileage added on our long-distance move to the new place.



The virgin oil test by the analyser you have selected will make an interesting comparison with the one I have provided further up above. I presume you will start a thread similar to this one once you get everything set up and running - I'll be sure to watch for it - good luck!

 

[dodge cummins]

both of your ideas sound great. i know that delo is great oil,but have any of you guys heard or seen that study that was done a year or 2 ago on the mobil delvac 1300 dino oil? i found it online awhile back, it was pretty impressive. long story short those semis went 300,000 without a oil change on mobil delvac 1300 and the oil still was not broken down.

 

[rweis]

Gary, I went back in the thread about the Frantz and re-read the whole thread (25 pages).



I think I see some major differences.



You change your bypass filter (and add makeup oil ie additive package etc) every 2500 miles.



How often do you change your full flow filter?



Do you test before and after you change the TP every 2500? To see what the TP change did?



I plan to test every 5k and see what I get and then determine what should be changed (the full flow, the bypass, some or total oil change?, combination of filters and some combination of how much oil change).



I have to figuer out what the differences in the test will drive a change of what (full flow, bypass, total oil change, total oil change & filters change).



Then after a test that drives a change of some sort, make the change, then test again to see what differences there are in the test (was the change correct to re-align the oil to "normal"?)



This is going to be interesting to say the least.



Bob Weis



I could use some input from industry users, managers, oil technology individuals, production managers, line supervisors, maintenance personnel, as to the best way to go about this. Test, then what do you change?, why?, how much do you change?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"You change your bypass filter (and add makeup oil ie additive package etc) every 2500 miles. "



Correct.



"How often do you change your full flow filter?"



Only chaged it once in the 20,000 miles - the Frantz is efficient enough that there's not much reason to change the full-flow as often as "normaL" - If I do decide to go with annual/12,000 mile changes, I will only change the full-flow at that point, none in between.



"Do you test before and after you change the TP every 2500? To see what the TP change did?"



Since I was only testing the oil about every third TP change, there were TP changes in between analysis - and oil added to make up for that absorbed by the replacement TP cartridge. No, never did a before/after TP change analysis - would be interesting to do though!



Along the lines of changing the stock filters when using the Frantz - I'm doing the same extended filter use in my fuel system as well, since I am using the same sub-micron fuel filter on that side, not much is likely to get thru to clog the stocker. I'll probably change it about every 2 years purely as a precaution against physical deterioration from old age - unless fuel pressure starts looking funny...