Anatomy of extended oil usage and analysis

[rweis]

On the fuel system, that is similar to what I do. I run a RACOR 690T and change it @25k as recommended by RACOR, about 1 time per year. I change the OEM ff 1 time per year when I change the RACOR. Have done that once. The fp has stayed just fine. I do drain a sample about 1 time per month and visually look at sediment and water stripped by the RACOR ff. Generally have a drop or two of water.



Since the LFS-802 is a bypass I will have to do some evaluation as to what to change and when and why.



I see you have an advantage in the Frantz. You change the closest tolerance filter the most often (2500) and add makeup oil the most often (2500). I wonder what your flow rate through the TP is?



The RACOR bypass will do 1. 5 quarts / min or the entire engine oil volume (12 qts for simplicity of math) in 8 minutes.



There is probably something to be said in doing "makup" oil every 2500 in keeping the integrity of the additive etc package in good shape. Sort of like a heart beat. Your oil heart beat is changing 8. 3% (1/12) of the oil every 2500. The "normal" oil heart beat is 100% (12/12) of the oil every 5000 without the additional bypass filter. Interesting question, what if the "normal" user were to change 8. 3% every 2500 miles.



Do "we" change the oil every 5000 to change the additive package or because there is starting to get to be a lot of particulate accumulating that are smaller than the Stratapore can filter out but still be damageing to the engine? Probably both?



What does a graph of the life of the oil look like? Is it straight line, exponential? What is the best indicator of oil life?, TBN? as a % of "out of the bottle". What happens to the TBN when you do the 8. 3% "reload"? What would the TBN look like if you "reloaded" 8. 3% every 1000 (or some other number).



There are lots of interesting questions here. There are probably 2 major sets of questions. One set is keeping the oil particulate clean so there is less wear (ie good metal numbers) which a bypass will do. The other question is keeping the oil's ability to absorbe acids of combustion at a reasonable level, which you do by the 8. 3% reload every 2500. Probably many more questions than that, but those come to mind.



My oil analysis kits should be here this week. I am at a "normal" oil change point (50k). I am going to get a sample of the 5k oil and send that in. Also going to send a clean sample to baseline the DELO 400.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"There are lots of interesting questions here. There are probably 2 major sets of questions. One set is keeping the oil particulate clean so there is less wear (ie good metal numbers) which a bypass will do. The other question is keeping the oil's ability to absorbe acids of combustion at a reasonable level, which you do by the 8. 3% reload every 2500. Probably many more questions than that, but those come to mind. "



In my case with the Frantz, TP cartridge changes, and resulting added oil was enough - as shown by analysis - to maintain stable TBN and TAN. Those numbers, along with excellent wear metal counts pretty much verifies that in my case the TP/added oil frequency was working well.



Sure, a fellow COULD set his sights lower, change less frequently - with resulting lower analysis results - and probably still fall within the "safe" zone of lubricant performance. This is one reason I'm interested in your test, with bypass filters changed less often, and less makeup oil added - what effect will that have on oil stability?



In tests of this nature, I personally feel it's a good idea to monitor TBN and TAN as part of the test, since these elements of oil quality can degrade over time, and wear rates MIGHT still look pretty decent until TBN and TAN *really* get out of line. Conversely, oil changed nearer to specifications are pretty unlikely to get out of range as far as TBN/TAN is concerned - at least with quality oils.



The only "down side" in my case - if I wanted to call it that - is that the more frequent recommended TP element changes sorta discourages use of higher priced lubes like synthetics, due to discomfort at tossing out $5+ worth of lube every 2000 miles or so...



But then, this "test" was done with one goal of displaying the lack of NEED for synthetics in extended service!



But all the above aside, I gotta tell ya - in SPITE of excellent analysis numbers right up to the end of my test, it really felt GOOD to get that old oil outta there, and refill with new, crystal clear stuff! :-laf :-laf

 

[rweis]

I don't see the synthetics as extended service, but rather better molecule construction and can stand higher temps than dino.



What "crystal" are you running?



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I don't see the synthetics as extended service, but rather better molecule construction and can stand higher temps than dino.



What "crystal" are you running?



Bob Weis

YUP - I agree - but still too costly to be tossing out a quart every 2000 miles, especially in moderate climates and vehicle usage. If I lived in the southern or extreme northern states where temps hit extremes - or if our 5th wheel was larger and heavier, I might consider the added "insurance" of the synthetics. But the analysis #'s displayed further above were MOSTLY towing in the areas we most commonly travel - and the plain old Delo seems to be doing just fine!



As to the "crystal", here again is a shot of my Delo 400 15/40 oil-covered dipstick at about 5000+ miles on the oil with the Frantz installed:



#ad




... And I sure like THAT look lots better than what the dipstick looks like (REGARDLESS of analysis #'s!) after 20,000 miles on the oil - not to mention what the insides of the engine must also look like!



(EDIT!)



Sorry, I forgot to respond to your question about oil flow thru the Frantz - I forget the nominal GPH numbers, but the restriction in my supply line is 1/8 inch in diameter - and I see a decent - but not excessive - lube flow returning to the engine with hot oil thru a 1/4 tube at the valve cover.

 

[rweis]

Opps, thought you had switched to synthetic with the reference to "crystal".



I am kicking around the idea of doing this testing with Mobile 1 SUV&TRUCK synthetic instead of dino.



The test would cover both possibilities of oil type. The key corner stone is still the bypass filter but would provide information to a greater range of users.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"I am kicking around the idea of doing this testing with Mobile 1 SUV&TRUCK synthetic instead of dino. "



Yeah, that would be interesting as well. We agree on the synthetic benefits in hot/cold climates - but based upon a long list of oil analysis reports I have seen over the years, I sure don't see the claimed reduction in wear - synthetics, for the most part, are as high or higher in wear metals like Iron, Aluminum, Chrome, etc.



And while a test you might do with synthetic oil and your different brand bypass filter would be an apples/oranges comparison in relation to mine, it would still be interesting - especially practical if you are interested in going synthetic anyway...

 

[dodge cummins]

i would love to see that because thats my oil of choice. if you need any specific info on mobil 1 truck and suv than email me and i will send it to you. in case you didn't no mobil 1 truck and suv 5w40 is a repackaged mobil delvac 1 5w40. same exact formula just the truck and suv formula is packaged to target the average consumer where delvac 1 is packaged to target the fleet. great stuff!!! i just wish walmart would sell it in 5 quart containers like the other mobil 1s

 

[rweis]

Last night I bought 3 @ 5qt jugs of Mobile SUV & Truck Synthetic from WALMART. $19. 98 / jug for a 5qt jug = $4. 00 / qt



With my RACOR LFS-802 (adds 2qt to the oil volume) I will need 13qt per fill.



As soon as my Summitt order (hoses) gets here I am ready to plumb and reload.



I am wrestling with how to do reloads though.



Normally without the bypass: 25k / yr, reload @ 5k (3 gal) = 15 gal / yr (60 qt / yr)



If I assume synthetics are primarily for higher temperatures and the molecule chain differences and do not really afford any different reload schedules, then the reload schedules should stay the same. However most of the bypass literature implies you can safely extend lube reloads 2x. However, extending the reload interval is not the primary point. Less internal wear, better lubrication, cooler internal temperatures are more important to me than a couple of $ / month oil cost.



Reload 1 gal / month, change Stratapore @5k, change bypass @ 25k?



Theoretically synthetics can go 2x dino.



Reload 2 qt / month, change Stratapore @ 5k, change bypass @ 25k?



I am going to use analysis test to help in determining reloads, but thinking rather than spike from usable to unusable, keep the chemical composition more constant with partial reloads might be a better plan. True? False?



In my plumbing setup I will have the ability to draw off a qt from the oil supply to the bypass filter and then replace that qt with a reload easily. Question: If I do a partial reload (2 qts / 4 qts) it should lower the TAN, increase the additive package, increase the TBN - True? False?



I am really guessing here and sure could use some input from users / maintainers. What do you industry / fleet guys do? What WOULD you do if labor cost was NO object?



I went to the FleetGuard site last night and they have a "why you should not use bypass filters" page. Interesting reading.

Summary:

1. Can you safely shunt off xxx amount of flow from the full flow filter and maintain system lubrication requirements?

2. What does the bypass filter really do for you other than filter smaller particles?

3. What rate should the bypass filter operate to do any operational good? (FleetGuard had an interval for complete sump recycleing of 5 - 11 minutes).



LFS-802: 1 1/2 qt / min (entire sump in 8 minutes), 1 micron, can absorbe 100 (I can't remember the units) of water, made for 60 qt engine sumps, 250 - 400 hp engines.



This is going to be a real learning curve.



At first I was going to extend the reload interval and then see what happened to the analysis to reload more or less often to get it where I felt comfortable with the analysis.



Instead, I think I am going to err on the side of safety and reload too much too often and then cut that schedule back until the analysis balances out.



What is a good TBN? New is 12, should NOT go below (conservative number needed here)

What is a good TAN? New is ??, should NOT go above (Conservative number needed here)



Many, many thoughts, very, very few answers,



Bob Weis

 

[dodge cummins]

if you want me to email you some info i have on mobil 1 truck and suv than email me directly at -- email address removed --.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"I went to the FleetGuard site last night and they have a "why you should not use bypass filters" page. Interesting reading.

Summary:

1. Can you safely shunt off xxx amount of flow from the full flow filter and maintain system lubrication requirements?

2. What does the bypass filter really do for you other than filter smaller particles?

3. What rate should the bypass filter operate to do any operational good? (FleetGuard had an interval for complete sump recycleing of 5 - 11 minutes). "



I'm REALLY disappointed that Fleetguard would print pure BS like that!



No *thinking* person could logically assert that CLEANER oil is in ANY way BAD for an engine! If so, WHY do we change the stuff at all?



JEEZE, I guess us guys buying the Fleetguard Stratapore filters are actually WASTING our money? After all, why "bother" spending extra $$$ on a filter that advertises BETTER filtering, if that isn't really a GOOD thing?



What a load of pure BS!

 

[rweis]

I took it as a stance that "WE (FleetGuard) sell filters".



Noticably absent from the FleetGuard site is a bypass filter.



One of the reasons I went with Parker-Hannifin (RACOR) is they recognize the need for a bypass filter and have several sizes to fit different situations.



I thought it was mainly "we do not do that so it is not important" head in the sand approach.



They do make a good filter though.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I took it as a stance that "WE (FleetGuard) sell filters".



Noticably absent from the FleetGuard site is a bypass filter.



One of the reasons I went with Parker-Hannifin (RACOR) is they recognize the need for a bypass filter and have several sizes to fit different situations.



I thought it was mainly "we do not do that so it is not important" head in the sand approach.



Bob Weis

ABSOLUTELY!



After all, if you're in the oil filter business, would you rather sell *4* filters in 20,000 miles, or only *1 or 2*?



But I seriously resent and am disgusted at any statement that BETTER oil filtration and resulting quality is of little value - ESPECIALLY when that irresponsible blather comes FROM a responsible (?) filter manufacturer!



IF their motivation WAS resistance towards what they view as competition, maybe THEY should get aboard, and market one of their own! As good as their "regular" filters are, they SHOULD be able to market an outstanding bypass setup of their own...



Sure makes more sense than making foolish statements that make them look like total idiots!

 

[dodge cummins]

that would be my guess. fleetguard is saying bypass filtration isn't good because they do not make it. just like some of the oil companies that say synthetic oil is bad for your vehicle because they don't have the funds,ability or the experts to do it.

 

[KB0OU]

I used to run a Puradyne bypass filter when I was running to Alaska, ran Shell Rotella oil 15/40 ran oil 25,000 miles between changes. At that point I would change all oils on vehicle and send in engine oil sample. Never got a report showing any problem with oil. I also run a K&N air filter, no problem with silicone.



388,000 miles and still going strong!!!!!!

 

[dodge cummins]

hey kabou what was your start point when driving to alaska. my truck originally came from alaska and was ferried over. the original owner drove it from his house in idaho to to his vacation spot in florida. he did no towing,just occasionally hauled some dirt for his garden.

 

[KB0OU]

Started in Joplin, MO. then to Elkhart, IN. then to Portal, ND. then to Edmonton, AB. etc. etc. mostly went to Anchorage, took RV's up there, new ones to dealer.

8,000 miles round trip from Joplin to Anchorage and back. During the winter, the engine would run continuously from about Edmonton and back except to check oil etc. every now and then. Even when I was sleeping, if ya shut it down, it would not start. So it has a lot of hours on it with the 388,000 miles. I now teach at a local Community College and just drive the pickup to work etc.

 

[dodge cummins]

thats pretty neat whats the longest you ever ran her before shutting her down? what do you think the longest you left at idle? 8 hours or more? all you ran was rotella 15w40 at 25,000 mile change intervals?

 

[KB0OU]

I would always check oil level etc. at least once per day. It took usually a week to go from Edmonton and back. I have left it running for 2 days sitting outside a motel room before. I would idle up to 1200 rpm. Yes I have always run Shell Rotella 15w40 in the motor, mainly because you can buy it anywhere. I run Mobile One 5w30 in the transfere case, Mobile One Auto transmission fluid in the transmission, and synthetic gear oil in differentials. When I first got the truck at 125,000 miles I put in transmission clutches, modified the valve body, and put in DTT Torque converter. I lost one band since then, no other problems with the transmission. Killed the dowel pin at about 200,000 miles when I had a leak in the head gasket. No other problems with the engine, it runs about 260 HP with plate and turbo adjustment. Have meters for EGT, Boost, and transmission temp that is switched for rear differential temp.

 

[DBond]

I went to the FleetGuard site last night and they have a "why you should not use bypass filters" page. Interesting reading.



Bob Weis

I am unfamilar with the fleetguard filters, and what I see on the Fleetguard webpage isn't totally clear to me.



http://www.fleetguard.com/fleet/en/products/en_prod_fg_lube.jsp



"Fleetguard® took another step forward with the introduction of combination full flow/by-pass filtration in the patented LF3000™"



"StrataPore™ Media

By implementing the revolutionary StrataPore™ multi-layered media in the 1990s, the combo filter was improved even more. StrataPore™ was introduced in the full flow section to work in combination with the stacked discs to remove the smallest dirt particles, which cause the most engine damage. "



So is the StrataPore filter that many on this site seem to prefer have some type of internal bypass filter internally? That is how I read this Fleetguard info.

 

[rweis]

I think that is what FleetGuard calls a bypass filter. The Stratapore has some sort of disc screen system in it they call a bypass. That is the way I read it.



Not a bypass system that takes a portion of the full flow and passes it through a much more restrictive filter but at a significantly lower flow rate.



If you go to the RACOR site they have the same filter system FleetGuard has but also a line of bypass filters (ie low flow, high restriction).



Bob Weis