Anatomy of extended oil usage and analysis

[Gary - K7GLD]

"So is the StrataPore filter that many on this site seem to prefer have some type of internal bypass filter internally? That is how I read this Fleetguard info. "



NO, the Fleetguard oil filters most often used and referred to in this group are sorta common full flow filters like the LF-3894 - better than average filters, but NOT bypass setups.



But it IS interesting that in ONE breath, Fleetguard ridicules bypass filtration - and then sez THIS:



Why By-pass Filtration Is Superior



With the introduction of combination lube filtration technology, Fleetguard® revolutionized the industry. As SAE 710813/790098 confirms, by-pass filtration reduces engine wear in the following key areas:



Upper connecting rod bearing shell

Lower connecting rod bearing shell

Upper main bearing shell

Lower main bearing shell



Sorta talk outta both sides of their mouth where bypass filtration is concerned, don't they! :-laf :-laf



OR, merely another case of "theirs STINKS, but OURS is GREAT!"

 

[rweis]

What do you think about this as to when to change the bypass filter?



Initially when new I will time how long it takes to fill a 1 quart container from the return oil line in the oil filler cap. When it takes three as long (ie flow rate is cut by 2/3's) it is time to change the bypass filter regardless of the mileage. The reason I think xx miles is not correct is it does not measure this particular size of filter in the conditions over the past xx miles. I do tow some and that will have some sort of effect on oil health.



Has to be done at the same engine oil pressure (ie idle, warm, stable oil pressure).



Change the Stratapore at 5k. Probably a little early on the full flow filter, but better a little early than too long.



I still need an idea to know when the TBN and or TAN indicates the oil is used up and do the complete change.



Still looking for ideas,



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I have no idea as to initially arriving at a better technique for determining time to change a bypass filter than what the maker specifies - on my Frantz, that is at 2000 miles, which is also about the time I see the oil on the dipstick get noticeably darker - so I continue to follow that recommendation.



With decent bypass filtration, there should be LESS need for changes on the OEM full flow filter - and in my case, I plan to change it only at 12,000 miles or annually, and figure the 2000 mile bypass element changes along with added makeup oil will effectively keep the oil clean and additive levels up at reasonable levels - and that seems to be verified by my own tests displayed here, where the OEM filter was only changed once in 20,000 miles.



Material "Amsoilman", Wayne Owen sent me, indicates that when TBN drops to about half the original level, it's time to either change the oil, or replenish the additives - and I would assume that treating the TAN would be about the same - when it doubles, time for corrective action.



But the basic trick to be established with extended drain intervals with a good bypass system, in my opinion, is to try to establish a service interval including addition of makeup oil that MAINTAINS decent wear rates, combined with stable TBN and TAN numbers - and that only comes from tests like I have done, and you are planning.

 

[rweis]

Just ran across this interesting site:



http://oilstudy.spacebears.com



Interesting reading, does not necessarily pertain to CTD, some of it does though. One group "study" on extended oil drains.



Gary,



Your last paragraph is the key. Reasonably stable oil analysis in a very safe band over a long period of time.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

HMMmm - I was especially interested in the comparative TBN drop between Mobil 1 and Amsoil - the Amsoil was WAY down compared to the Mobile 1, and I had thought that the "superior" additive package of the Amsoil was it's strong pont, and advertised strength in extended drain intervals...

 

[rweis]

Gary,



Well, that's what a lot of folks SAY. I thought it was just a "study" different than others I had seen. Did have a couple of different ideas as to how to calculate some sort of a change interval I had not seen before. Even allowed for "makeup oil" is a couple of the measurements.



The concept of % of "solids" I thought was a possibility of how to tell the bypass filter needed to be changed.



I was also going to measure how long (in seconds) it took the bypass return line to fill a quart container. Then retest it at some regular interval to see the % of restriction to when it was new. Use that to give a measure as to when to change the byppass filter coupled with the % of "solids". That would be applicable to any bypass filter regardless of the brand or physical construction, or size of the filter medium.



Use the oil analysis to keep the TBN and viscosity in a nice comfortable range.



You have the change interval figuered out for your setup as evidanced by your testing. You also have your replinishment interval figuered out as evidanced by your testing.



Could you do me a favor next time you replace your filter? I think you have your return line into the oil fill cap.



Could you draw off a quart just BEFORE you change your filter and time the amount of time it takes to fill the quart? Then , you could put that quart back into your oil fill if you wanted, could you draw off a quart just AFTER you change your filter and time the amount of time it takes to fill the quart?, and post the difference in the time it took with a clean filter and a dirty filter. I will do the same at every testing interval and we can compare exactely apples and apples, ie the time differences.



I got my plumbing in the UPS today, so have all the parts to "hook 'er up" this weekend.



"Let the games begin"



Bob Weis



Anyone else that runs a bypass filter that they can draw a quart sample, if you could do the same time test, maybe we can figuer out a sort of % blockage of the bypass filter in which to use to change the bypass filter. Even if you are not changing your bypass filter if you could draw a quart and post the time here.



The engine condition for the draw should be in idle, throughly warmed up engine, stable oil pressure. THANKS

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Could you draw off a quart just BEFORE you change your filter and time the amount of time it takes to fill the quart? Then , you could put that quart back into your oil fill if you wanted, could you draw off a quart just AFTER you change your filter and time the amount of time it takes to fill the quart?,"



Can do - but I'm sure that each different brand bypass filter will display significant variations, based upon surface area of filter materal used and type of media - it's highly unlikely that my TP cartridge element and it's composition will display anywhere near the same new/old flow rate characteristics as, say, an Amsoil bypass setup.



BUT, it would be interesting to see if any significant changes in flow rate occur with the SAME filter from new to old...

 

[rweis]

Gary,



When you change yours, are you reduced flow by 10%, 50%, 90%?



I am really looking for a sort of semi rule of thumb. When the bypass flow is reduced by xx % then it is a guide line for change.



There are 5 different sizes of RACOR LFS-XXX. I choose an overly large one for my application. If I had chosen the next size down (smaller filter), then still when the filter flow is reduced by xx % it is time to change it.



It is also determined by how clean the engine is to start with. You have been doing this for quite a while and your engine is pretty clean inside from your dip stick pictures. My engine could not be that clean. My first couple of bypass filters probably will load up fairly quickly as the "stuff" gets cleaned out.



If the bypass filter XXX did not filter down to as small a micron level it would not load up as quickly as it would let more small stuff pass, but still needs to be changed when the flow is reduced by xx %.



Your TP filters may load up way quicker than the RACOR or the OilGuard because you may be filtering way finer (sub-micron?) than the RACOR or OilGuard can.



Since each of these different bypass systems are exactely that, DIFFERENT. We need to find a way to cheaply and individually describe our own setups. I thought if we collected flow data, then we can see what it will yield. Maybe nothing, who knows.



Of course oil analysis is another part of it, but more on the statistics of metals, particulates, and TBN as to what to do about adding or changing the fluid.



Thanks for your inputs,



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

It'll take a while, but I'll give it a try!

 

[JFaughn]

I thought that the reason for SYN. and its exended changes are becouse the molicules of SYN. form a ball and it does not brake down like non SNY. becouse its molicules form a chain and are easly boken up in machinery by what I've heard called shearing between parts. so it would seam that oil analysis is an issue more to do with filtering much more than oil types and additives except in the missuse of the wrong or low quality oils.

 

[amsoilman]

"Could you draw off a quart just BEFORE you change your filter and time the amount of time it takes to fill the quart? Then , you could put that quart back into your oil fill if you wanted, could you draw off a quart just AFTER you change your filter and time the amount of time it takes to fill the quart?,"



Can do - but I'm sure that each different brand bypass filter will display significant variations, based upon surface area of filter materal used and type of media - it's highly unlikely that my TP cartridge element and it's composition will display anywhere near the same new/old flow rate characteristics as, say, an Amsoil bypass setup.



BUT, it would be interesting to see if any significant changes in flow rate occur with the SAME filter from new to old...

I can tell you there will definitely be different flow rates between by-pass filters. The Amsoil by-pass (BMK-11) has a small "orifice" (. 020) in the return side feeding oil back to the engine sump. They have designed the By-pass filtration systems to allow approximately 6 Qts. of oil every five minutes to flow through the By-pass elements with 40 PSI .



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[rweis]

Info only,



Flow rate: Idle (800 rpm), warmed engine, taken at oil fill cap return line, two flow test,



#1 53 seconds for 1 quart,

#2 56 seconds for 1 quart.



Advertised rate is 1 1/2 quarts / minute. Does not say at what pressure. Without flow rate at a specific pressure the number is only a guide line.



I will do 3 more test this comming week and average all to insure I have a good flow rate.



Clean (right out of the container) sample sent in (5/2) for analysis for baseline.



Observations: Return oil very dark even with total synthetic reload. Will recheck it with a little time going through the bypass filter and see what it looks like.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Observations: Return oil very dark even with total synthetic reload. Will recheck it with a little time going through the bypass filter and see what it looks like. "



If your bypass filter is anywhere near as efficient as mine, your oil should look VERY clean within 500 miles - freeway driving develops less soot in the oil than around town, or heavy traffic driving. Plus, you undoubtedly have lots of various contaminents built up in galleries and such that will take a few miles to get flushed and cleaned...

 

[rweis]

Agree with the wait 500 miles or so for clarity.



I sent off the unused Mobile 1 today to get it's baseline numbers for comparison purposes. I think I can access the results online by 5/6. I will post as soon as I get it.



I absolutely love the idea that you can sample the in circuit oil.



13 quarts to fill, the bypass filter takes 2 quarts.



The idle oil psi did not decline much if any. Maybe 1 - 3 psi.



Bob Weis



PS: If you do a Google search on "Oil Analysis" you will get a link (lubetips@noria.com) to Lube-Tips an oil analysis industry publication. They have a free email subscriber link for their monthly publication. Interesting reading.

 

[dodge cummins]

i can't wait for 5/6 to see results. i've been running that oil for about a year now.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

From over on the "oilguy" website, here's an analysis of virgin Mobil SUV lube:



=======



Mobil 1 5W-40 Truck & SUV, analyzed by OAI/CTC.

Not sure which represents the batch number, but printed on the bottle is the following:

XO8B4 RN4869



Here are the numbers.



code:

------------------------------



Iron 2

Chromium 0

Lead 0

Copper 0

Tin 0

Aluminum 1

Nickel 0

Silver 0

Silicon 4

Boron 39

Sodium 0

Magnesium 458

Calcium 2023

Barium 0

Phosphorus 994

Zinc 1352

Molybdenum 0

Titanium 0

Vanadium 0

Potassium 0

Fuel <1

Water 0

Glycol NEG

Nitration 10

Oxidation 15

Visc100 14. 6

TBN 11. 2



======



ENJOY!

 

[rweis]

From "Lube-Tips" 4 May 2005



Q & A: Changing Oil Based on Oxidation

"As oil ages, it oxidizes. What is the best indicator that the oil has oxidized too much and should be changed based upon the results given in a typical oil analysis? We analyze the oil from our mixer gearboxes and will typically run the same oil in the gearbox for several years as long as the oil analysis comes back with good results. "



The first issue here is to define a "typical" oil analysis. Most labs have several test packages to choose from that may or may not give an overall solid feel for lubricant oxidation. In order to identify lubricant oxidation, it is important to include oil properties monitoring as part of your regular test package. This will allow for the extension of drain intervals based on lubricant condition as well as help to identify adverse operating conditions that may exist.



Common tests that cover lubricant properties include viscosity, neutralization number (acid number for industrial-based lubricants, base number for mobile equipment), and FTIR. The values of the results in all of these tests will increase as the level of oxidation increases (with the exception of base number, which will decrease as the level of acids increase via the oxidation process). A couple of common field tests that can help to indicate possible oxidation are darkening color and foul odor. As with the laboratory tests, it is important that sensory testing is compared to that of a virgin oil base sample.



Oxidation will generally happen at a slow rate under optimum conditions; however, as the health of the lubricant decreases, the rate of degradation will increase. There are several other factors that if not controlled, can lead to increased rates of oxidation. These factors include heat, air, water, and metallic particles.



Using a combination of these tests will assist in pinpointing positive levels of oxidation. Combined with appropriate equipment monitoring tests and contaminant tests, root causes of oxidation can also be found and controlled.



Matt Spurlock, Noria Corporation





Bob Weis



Thanks Gary for the "Oilguy" Mobile SUV analysis. I will post my results as soon as, then we can compare the two for differences. This is getting FUN



"Oxidation will generally happen at a slow rate under optimum conditions; however, as the health of the lubricant decreases, the rate of degradation will increase... ... " Graphs should be interesting.

 

[rweis]

Here's the virgin oil report on my Mobile 1 SUV & Truck 5W-40



Next sample: 1k (51308)





Report Issue Date:May 5, 2005

PdMA Corporation

Oil Analysis Severity Summary

O = Observation MH = Moderately High S = Severe N = Normal M = Moderate



OASIS EXAMPLE REPORT

May 5, 2005 Report Printed Date:

05/01/2005 N BOB WEIS 56887895 2002 DODGE 219835



Page 1

PdMA Corporation



May 5, 2005 Report Issue Date:N = Normal



OASIS EXAMPLE REPORT

Recommended Action:Continue sampling to track/trend data. Based on the results of the analyses performed on this sample the unit and lube appear satisfactory for continued usage.



Data Interpretation:

Lab Number 219835

Description:

WEAR METALS

ppm 2 Iron Fe

ppm 0 Chromium Cr

ppm 0 Molybdenum Mo

ppm 1 Aluminum Al

ppm 0 Copper Cu

ppm 0 Lead Pb

ppm 0 Tin Sn

ppm 1 Silver Ag

ppm 0 Nickel Ni

ppm 1 Vanadium V

ppm 0 Titanium Ti

ppm 0 Manganese Mn

ppm 0 Cadmium Cd

CONTAMINANT METALS

ppm 10 Silicon Si

ppm 0 Sodium Na

ppm 85 Boron B

ADDITIVE METALS

ppm 570 Magnesium Mg

ppm 2934 Calcium Ca

ppm 0 Barium Ba

ppm 1515 Phosphorus P

ppm 1591 Zinc Zn

NON-METALLIC CONT.

% vol Nil Water

% vol <0. 1 Solids

% vol <2. 0 Fuel

LUBE DATA

cSt 14. 9 Viscosity @ 100'C

mg KOH/g 8. 92 Total Base Number

INFRARED

0. 000 Hydroxy

0. 000 Antiwear Loss

9. 532 Oxidation

9. 433 Nitration

25. 540 Oxidation/Sulfate

ADDITIONAL TESTS

hrs 0 Lube Hours

hrs 50308 Unit Hours

Severity:

Recommended Action:

(N) - Normal



Continue sampling to track/trend data.

Data Interpretation: Based on the results of the analyses performed on this sample the unit and lube appear satisfactory for continued usage.



There are different ways to compute TBN. I need a much more knowledgeable person than I to help out with a conversion constant between the different testing methods. This lab test mg KOH/g. The sample that Gary got from Bob the Oil Guy site must have tested with a different method to get a very different value.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Bob, I think the relatively small differences between your sample and the one I imported from another website are pretty normal variations from one sample lot to another, and especially from one lab to another - actually, only the Silicon level on your sample looked a bit high - the others seemed pretty much in line.



Now, on with the test - I sure hope you can pile up mileage faster than I can - I'm not getting any younger! :-laf :-laf

 

[rweis]

Interesting article over at "BobIsTheOilGuy.com" under Car & Truck Lubrication \ Light Duty Diesel Engine Oils \ Change That Oil.



From: Jim Fitch, "Clean Oil Reduces Engine Fuel Consumption", Practicing Oil Analysis Magazine. November 2002



Basically cleaner oil, less friction, has Cummins N-14 engine test 300k miles. Cleaner oil with bypass yielded up to 3% - 5% fuel economy (~ 1/2 - 3/4 mpg).



300,000 miles, 16. 0 mpg, $2. 35 pg, $44062. 50

300,000 miles, 16. 5 mpg, $2. 35 pg, $42727. 27 25k / yr, $111 / yr

300,000 miles, 16. 8 mpg, $2. 35 pg, $41964. 29 25k / yr, $175 / yr



Need bypass to get particles in 3 - 10 micron range. Has a chart on oil film thickness in various engine regions (rings, bearings, ... ) "Particle-induced wear is greatest when the particle sizes are in the same range as the oil film thickness". Does not estimate cost of repair avoidance for cleaner oil.



I am begining to think that the bypass filter is not only "nice to have" it is essential if you want long life out of your engine. If you trade vehicles out often then probably a moot point.



Bob Weis



200 miles so far (1 week) toward a 1k OA