Anatomy of extended oil usage and analysis

[rweis]

Over on BobIsTheOilGuy.com and the Nordia.com site they are doing particle analysis and counting the numbers of particles by micron size (some goruping ie 1,2,3,5,10 ... ).



I thought I might do the particle count on the first 1k sample to see if the bypass filter is REALLY filtering absolute 3u, 50% 1u.



However, the lab says when the sample is very dark it is just about impossible to get the laser to do the counting. I only have 300 miles toward the 1k sample. and I will check the color again tonight, but ???????



How are they getting the particle counts with dark oil?



Hopefully it will not be dark at the 1k mark if the bypass is really doing the job.



Marketing "absolute 3u, 50% 1u" is it really checkable?



Might run the particle count anyway and see if it is even doable.



Ideas?



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

DUNNO about your bypass - but my oil stayed quite clear for the first 13,000 miles or so, and based upon what you said about testing for particle sizes, I would think it would still be usable for counting purposes...

 

[rweis]

I HOPE! the color is from just the cleaning out the engine journals and what might have not come out of the pan.



I probably need to let it go the 1k and do it's thing. Hopefully it will clear up enough so the LASER counter can do it's thing.



I do about 50 miles / day so about 2 more weeks for the first operational analysis.



Looking at your clarity of dip stick, you may have the ultimate answer to the bypass systems. I have not seen any bypass systems that go sub micron. Now I am really wondering when they advertise 3u, 50% 1u, if it is really proveable on a diesel.



You HAVE to be able to PROVE what is happening. Sure I can get metals, additives, insoluables, etc, but the u spread?



Bob Weis

 

[rweis]

A good paper on "Lubricant Cleanliness Application Note" @ www.natrib.com/appnotes/app_clean.htm



Explains ISO codes very well and general fluid cleanliness objectives.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Good article Bob - I liked the table showing how ISO particle sizing is used. Also interested in THIS paragraph:



"Solid contaminants, whether they are dirt or wear-generated debris, will increase the oxidation rate of the lubricant, because these materials contain metals that catalyze the oxidation process. The presence of these metals alone can cause oxidation rates to increase to five times the normal rate, while the presence of water can increase the oxidation rate ten times. Combined, water and metal catalysts can increase the oxidation rate fifty times or more. Although the presence of heat and air are not typically considered contaminants, excessive heat can also increase the oxidation rate. A rule of thumb for the rate of heat-induced oxidation is that for every 10°C (18°F) above 60°C (140°F) the oxidation rate doubles. As the amount of air in lubricant increases, the oxidation rate increases at a similar rate. Entrained air can result from excessive agitation in the lubricating system, the presence of water, or too much or too little antifoam additive. "



That paragraph is (or should be!) of special importance to guys running extended oil drains, where gradual increases in wear metals and other contaminents above and beyond those typically seen in "normal" changes potentially impact oxidation rates and percentages.

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Gary, I was just wondering if it hurts to change your brand of oil from oil change to oil change. What is your opinion on that subject?



Second, the only thing that i can really contribute to this thread is back in 1992-93 time frame, I did similar test to the oil that i sent in for the analysis. I used Amsoil and changed the filter ( NAPA ) every 5,000 miles. Also did the analysis every 5,000 to see if "they" said the oil was good or bad. I did that for 15,000 miles and the analysis said the oil was still good to use, even at 15,000 miles on the clock. By the looks of the oil, very black and didn't smell right to me, I changed it anyways. I really didn't trust the test, no reason in particular, other than I didn't know much about the subject and wasn't willing to risk the cost of a motor if the analysis was wrong.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Most "experts" claim there's no real problem mixing a quart or more of one brand with another - that's sorta the justification for the API certification, for standardising oil performance and quality/characteristics within specific grades/weights. Thus, one brand of 30 weight SHOULD pretty much mix and perform the same as another similar brand/grade it might be mixed with.



STILL, I've seen enough virgin oil analysis results to see that while API ratings might be the same, the actual ADDITIVE package often varies GREATLY from one brand to another, and *I* sure don't like to mix them!



YMMV!

 

[rweis]

Does anyone know anything about / or has ever used one of the "Oil Management Systems?



I ran across these on a different forum:



Oil Mate by EMP (Engineered Mechined Products)



CENTINEL by Cummins Engines



Both are systems mainly for LARGE diesels that take a small amount of oil out of the normal engine lubrication system and send it to the fuel tank, then draw an equal amount of oil from a virgin engine oil supply tank and deliver it to the engine sump therefore replacing the oil sent to the fuel tank.



Sort of an automatic oil change system but in small measured amounts consistantly over time. You can search Google with "Engine oil management" and find references to both systems.



Then add the idea of the bypass filter to that so the damage size particles (5um - 30um) are filtered out.



And it would seem that it is getting pretty close to a perfect engine oil lubrication system.



Easier to just change the oil, I know, but apparently it has been in OTR trucks for some time, and it is interesting.



Bob Weis

 

[DBond]

Does anyone know anything about / or has ever used one of the "Oil Management Systems?



CENTINEL by Cummins Engines



Bob Weis

Check out

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132459&page=2&pp=15



post 19 is interesting

 

[rweis]

I wonder if their OTR used a bypass filter to keep the oil cleaner?



Gary K7GLD had a problem burning used oil in the fuel. I think he did a dump of a quantity (quart?) in ??? amount of fuel. However, Gary's oil is as clean as I think possible from his pictures of the dip stick.



However #19 implies that oil and the fuel system are not real happy together. Seems EMP or Cummins would have field tested it thouroughly. I wonder if / what was missed (if anything) that was causing the problem with the oil being put into the fuel system on the CENTINEL system.



Just seems odd that real world did not function correctly, but "what sounds good on the surface, often is NOT!"



Interesting thread though.



Can you approximate the CENTINEL system by removing and replacing 1 quart every 1000 miles in our CTD's?, and NOT put the removed oil into the fuel because of the POTENTIAL problems. I wonder HOW MUCH oil the CENTINEL system "processes" per 1000 miles?



Bob Weis

 

[rweis]

This is an identical post I made over at a thread on the OilMate system.



I went to the Oil Mate website (www.oilmate.com) and there is enough information to figure it out (the amount of oil exchanged / 1000 miles).



Their system is based on time.

The time is based on the size of the oil sump.

They give an example of a Hummer the time would be 12 minutes.

Let's use a 15 minute cycle for simplicity.



Their system changes . 5 oz per cycle.



4 cycles per hour gives (. 5 * 4) 2 oz / hr oil change.



Then you need the time it would take for 1000 miles.

Let's figure 30 mph around town and 60 mph on the highway.

That gives 33. 33 hrs and 16. 67 hrs.



30 mph avg gives 66. 66 oz / 1000 miles,

60 mph avg gives 33. 33 oz / 1000 miles.



Convert that to quarts.



30 mph avg 2. 08 quarts / 1000 miles

60 mph avg 1. 04 quarts / 1000 miles



No wonder they claim 525k between oil changes. You are changing a lot of oil / 1000 miles.



Since we do not drive continuously you could change 1 quart or 2 quarts / 1000 miles. Just put a sample valve somewhere in your oil system and draw x quarts, then refill with the same amount. I was courious about how much oil was being exchanged.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Two points here:



1. I'm fully convinced my particular experience in applying used oil in my fuel was primarily due to too much at one time - shoulda used about a quart instead of a gallon in a 32 gallon tank. I'll test that theory more further on down the road - and I also doubt that the fact it was USED oil had anything to do with it - new oil right outta the can in that high a concentration would probably also caused erratic LP problems.



My main purpose in creating that "other" thread regarding my experience with used engine oil in fuel, was to give a heads up to others who might get over enthusiastic like I did, and to also raise the question as to what effects other alternative fuels might have on the 24 valve LP's...



2. The question as to seemingly high consumption and subsequent replacement of oil volume used in automatic systems where used oil is recycled into the fuel stream is somewhat valid, but still is rather small volume as compared to conventional oil drains and other methods of oil disposal.



Even in my own extended oil usage test, I was using about a half quart per 1000 miles - but that was still FAR less disposed oil than conventional oil changes, plus it kept my oil exceptionally clean due to the Frantz bypass filter, and at the same time very adequately maintained my oil's TBN and TAN.



A pretty good bargain, in my book!

 

[rweis]

Gary,



I wonder about passing highly diluted oil through 10 micron fuel filters. We both work pretty hard to get the fuel as clean as possible. It seems to me why take it the other way even though it is a burnable fluid. Not sure I think mixing the oil in fuel is a good idea.



I was thinking about the ratios of the mix. On a class 8, 2 oz / hr in 100 gallons down to 2oz / hr in what is the minimum before they stop for fuel?



I think if I were to do a automatic system I would put the "used" oil in a used oil tank and not mess with the clean fuel system. It is an interesting idea however.



I still think you have to dump the entire oil sump occassionally to get the wear metals out as they are too small to be filtered. Therefore, with a regular "replacement" method, automatic or manual, that keeps the TBN and other oil properties in good shape and very viable, maybe the particle count of the wear metals is where the threshold of when to dump the sump is and what is / are those values and of which wear metals? Fe?, Cu?, ... ...



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"I wonder about passing highly diluted oil through 10 micron fuel filters. We both work pretty hard to get the fuel as clean as possible. It seems to me why take it the other way even though it is a burnable fluid. Not sure I think mixing the oil in fuel is a good idea. "



Bob, your concerns might be accurate - or my faith in the abilities of my Frantz oil bypass and fuel filter might be misplaced... But with all my crankcase lube being passed thru a SUB-micron filter constantly - and then thru another full-flow SUB-micron fuel filter in that system. I feel pretty safe, at least as far as wear metal contaminents are concerned.



Of course, there are other issues with used oil - but after reading so much material on alternative fuels, and what users in many foreign countries use for fuel, I figured it's worth a try - and besides, I've been using a mixture of Power Service additive with an equal percentage of ashless 2-stroke oil in my fuel for many years anyway - so the relatively small volume of additional used engine lube (in the PROPER percentage!) shouldn't be that big an issue.



As far as *I* am concerned, in regards to used engine oil, the prime issue relates to it's purity in terms of particle size of contaminents, due to their potential effect on close tolerance injection pump components - and I hope I have that covered with my filtering system - I'm really not concerned as to how the stuff burns in the combustion chambers, don't think there are any problems there.

 

[rweis]

OA 5,497 miles



First # is 5,497, 2nd # is virgin oil



I have change the test somewhat. I am not after least cost. I am after longest life. I change out 1 quart every 1k, change 1 quart when I change the filter. Change the filter every 5k which is the 1 quart change out at that point.



I will flow test the bypass filter and edit this post with that number to see how it is going.





WEAR METALS

ppm 12/2 Iron Fe

ppm 1/0 Chromium Cr

ppm 12/0 Molybdenum Mo

ppm 2/1 Aluminum Al

ppm 1/0 Copper Cu

ppm 0/0 Lead Pb

ppm 0/0 Tin Sn

ppm 0/1 Silver Ag

ppm 0/0 Nickel Ni

ppm 0/1 Vanadium V

ppm 0/0 Titanium Ti

ppm 0/0 Manganese Mn

ppm 0/0 Cadmium Cd

CONTAMINANT METALS

ppm 21/10 Silicon Si Got a problem here. Changing the air filter immediately

ppm 0/0 Sodium Na

ppm 61/85 Boron B

ADDITIVE METALS

ppm 535/570 Magnesium Mg

ppm 2778/2934 Calcium Ca

ppm 0/0 Barium Ba

ppm 1283/1515 Phosphorus P

ppm 1375/1591 Zinc Zn

NON-METALLIC CONT.

% vol Nil/Nil Water

% vol <0. 1/<0. 1 Solids

% vol /<2. 0 Fuel

LUBE DATA

cSt 13. 7/14. 9 Viscosity @ 100'C

mg KOH/g 7. 41/8. 92 Total Base Number

INFRARED

0. 000/0. 000 Hydroxy

0. 000/0. 000 Antiwear Loss

11. 430/9. 532 Oxidation

11. 840/9. 433 Nitration

31. 500/25. 540 Oxidation/Sulfate

ADDITIONAL TESTS

hrs 5497/0 Lube Hours

hrs 55497/50000 Unit Hours

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

All looks good except for Silicon - and maybe fuel dilution. What air filter are you using? My fuel dilution at *20,000 miles* on the oil was less than . 5, wonder why yours is about 4 times higher at 1/4 the miles?

 

[rweis]

The lab did not do a fuel dilution at 5k (notice no numbers before a /)



The oil was too dirty to do a particle count on. They did do a Direct Reading Ferrography (particle count on the Fe) The results were Small (2 - 5 um) 4. 5 and Large (5 + um) 6. 2 (any thing below 10 is good).



This leads me to draw the conclusion that the FRANTZ filter is vastly superior in filtering to even the RACOR filter. I did a 2500 mile vacation (ie 60 mph towing heavy ie a lot of soot deposits) just before the OA. I want to go to 10k before I make final conclusions, but as I see it your FRANTZ is the better filter. Maybe the oil will be cleaner at 10k because there will not be any HEAVY LONG PERIODS of HIGH POWER. We'll see. Interesting experiment though. I replace twice as much oil as you do and yet have more soot in the oil. I could see dipstick markings through the oil at sampling, but not as clear as the pic you posted of your dipstick.



I am using a AFE Scotty II that I intentionally did not change before the trip (It has been about 15k since last change). I am going to change it now and see if the silicon levels are different at the 10k OA. If they are not then I am going to the new Scotty Uni filter in the Scotty II form. Maybe 15k is too long for the filter. It was a new filter, not reoiled when it went in 15k ago.



I do see where the viscosity and TBN are holding well, as they should be with a replace every 1k. I do like the idea of replacing 1 quart every 1k.



I'll report back in 5k more miles. I think the replacement without sustained periods of high horsepower will give particle count ability (I hope ), I want to see what particle sizes are doing what.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Thanks for the clarification on fuel dilution Bob.



One advantage in my test was that lots of my driving was freeway-type miles as we moved up to this new area - so soot levels and fuel contamination were low. But now, much of what miles the truck sees are short haul local stuff - and I've added bigger injectors - NOT a good way to keep soot and fuel levels low!