Anatomy of extended oil usage and analysis

[Gary - K7GLD]

I have mentioned in several threads my current involvement in doing a relatively long term test on extended oil drains, using Delo 400 15/40 as the media under test. I'm doing this for several reasons:



1. To attempt to establish and show that you don't HAVE to use high priced synthetics to employ extended drains, as many do to recover the substantially higher cost of the synthetics.



2. To show that bypass filtration will greatly assist in normal, and extended oil usage.



3. That those nasty K&N air filters, when installed and maintained properly, WILL deliver excellent filtering capability. Ditto the Frantz toilet paper bypass oil filters.



A spin-off of the above, was my decision to send 3 identical oil samples to 3 different oil analyzers, to see what variations would surface in their reports - and to at least try to form some useful conclusion based upon that test.



To form at least some baseline for the above test, I found analysis reports on new, unused Delo 400 15/40 from 2 of the analyzers I selected in order to see what variations there were on the new oil - keeping in mind the the new oils sampled were done at different times and from different oil batches - still an interesting comparison.



The analyzers I used were, Blackstone, CAT, and Oil Analyzers.



Here's the 2 baseline samples:



Test was done by Oil Analyzers

Iron 1ppm

Magnesium 23ppm

Calcium 3343 ppm

Barium 0ppm

Phophorous 1116ppm

Zinc 1376ppm

Molybdenum 0ppm

Titanium 0ppm

Vanadium 0ppm

Potassium 0ppm

VIS@100C 15. 95cSt

Tbn 10. 63







From Blackstone Labs, 5/10/04

Chevron Delo 400 15W40 CI-4



Al-1

Iron-2

Lead-1

Silicon-5

Sodium-1Calcium-3476

Magnesium-6

Phos-1190

Zinc-1329



Vis@210F-80. 5

Flashpoint-450F

TBN-not tested



Presumably, values not displayed were Zero - but do note the TBN value shown on the Oil Analyzer's sample.



MORE BELOW...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

As can be seen, considerable variations are evident between analyzers...



SO, on with MY test...



I took 3 identical oil samples after 5000 miles use, and sent them to the 3 analyzers indicated - the first back was Oil Analyzers - here's the results:



Results shown are PPM



Iron = 120 (What's THIS? - HOW can that figure be so high?)

Chromium = 4

Lead = 14

Copper = 20

Tin = 0

Aluminum = 4

Nickel = 0

Silver = 0

Silicon = 11

Boron = 2

Sodium = 2

Magnesium = 26

Calcium = 3343

Barium = 0

Phosphorous = 1143

Zinc = 1342

Molybdenum = 3

Titanium = 0

Vanadium = 0

Potassium = 0



Fuel <1

Viscosity = 15. 45 cSt (whatever that translates to... )

Water = 0

Soot/solids = 1

Antifreeze = negligible

TBN = 11. 7

Oxidation = 15

Soot = . 05







OK, so how does that compare with the others?



CAT:



Aluminum = 1

Boron = 1

Chrome = 0

Copper = 4

Iron = 13 (THAT'S more LIKE it!)

Lead = 3

Magnesium = 8

Molybdenum = 2

Nickel - 0

Silicon = 3 (there's that nasty K&N air filter at work... )

Tin = 0

Zinc = 1354

Soot - 11

Oxidation = 9

Nitrogen = 0

Water = n

Antifreeze = n

Fuel = n

Viscosity = 16. 7

TBN = 12 (hell, that's better than new stuff outta the bottle!)



And finally, Blackstone:



Aluminum = 1

Chromium = 1

Iron = 12

Copper = 2

Lead = 3

Tin = 1

Molybdenum = 0

Nickel = 0

Manganese = 0

Silver = 0

Titanium = 0

Potassium = 0

Boron = 0

Silicon = 3

Sodium = 2

Calcium = 3488

Magnesium = 4

Phosphorous = 1182

Zinc = 1348

Barium = 0

Viscosity @ 210 degrees = 84. 4 (slightly high due to my use of STP)

Flashpoint = 435

Antifreeze = 0

Water = 0

Insolubles = <0. 1



MORE...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

SOOOoooo - what do we deduce from the above?



Well, *I* deduce that significant differences exist between different analysis outfits - and that OIL Analyzers is WAYYYyyy out in left field as compared to the other 2... Sure, equipment differences and calibration create variations, as well as actual test methods used - but ALL 3 claim their results are given in Part-Per-Million - so why the seemingly radical difference between Oil Analyzers and the other 2? Is it because THEY are closer to accurate results than the other 2 - or, more likely, LESS accurate?



YOU decide!



SOME will next pop in to point out that SPECIFIC numbers as they vary from one test lab to another are not particularly important, but the "trend" of numbers is the REAL issue - so even if your Iron reading *IS* 100 ppm, that isn't as important as what other readings consistently show, taken over the life of the equipment...



BS!



I can accept a certain degree of variation, from the SAME lab, or from one to another - but when exposed to RADICAL differences as seen in the above samples, I gotta say that Oil Analyzers will NOT be seeing any more of MY oil!



OTHERWISE, as can be seen, and from supporting comments from all 3 outfits, my oil is fully suitable for continued use - Blackstone even went so far as to comment on the "exceptional cleanliness" of my sample.



Wear rates are coming steadily downward as my engine seats in - 27,000 miles on the engine in the above samples - and even with that nasty K&N air filter, Silicon content is about the same as NEW oil right out of the bottle! (any of you K&N filter haters wanna compare silicon level oil reports?) And as to condition of additives in my oil at 5000 miles, from the above, the TBN is BETTER now than when it stared out fresh...



Guys, as I have posted in another thread, we're in the process of moving out of this state - will only be here and online spasmodically over the next few months - so all the above info is for general interest only, draw your own conclusions - one thing this moving bit will do, is put LOTS of miles on the truck - so the extended oil use test will continue, currently 7000 miles and counting - stay tuned!

 

[RTuvell]

You're saying that each analysis was on the exact same oil, correct?



Why not share your results with Oil Analyzers and ask them to explain why their results are so different from the others?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

You're saying that each analysis was on the exact same oil, correct?



Why not share your results with Oil Analyzers and ask them to explain why their results are so different from the others?

Because I seriously doubt I would receive any meaningful response - yes, it was the exact SAME oil, 3 samples pulled at the same time in 3 identical sample containers...



I realize many here use Oil Analyzers and are completely satisfied with their service - not trying to change anyone's mind, just providing my own experience and results...



YMMV!

 

[amsoilman]

Viscosity = 15. 45 cSt (whatever that translates to... )

Gary,

This number is in Centistokes. (cSt) A 40 grade oil @ 100 c. should be between

12. 5 and 16. 3 cSt @ 100 c. to be qualified as a 40 grade oil.



Viscosity @ 210 degrees = 84. 4 (slightly high due to my use of STP) reported by Blackstone, is a number that represents the Viscosity, but is reported in SUS Seybolt Universal Seconds. This is on the high end of a 40 grade oil as in Seybolt Universal Seconds, 40 grade oil should be between 69. 8 and 83. 5 to be qualified as a 40 grade oil.



Iron = 120 (What's THIS? - HOW can that figure be so high?) I would question this number; call them to see if this is just an error! It could be that it should read 12. 0 PPM... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... just a thought.



Where are you moving to?



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

HI Wayne - always good to hear from you - thanks for the info. Yeah, I suspected a decimal point was missing on the OA Iron reading too - but even using a magnifying glass, none to be found... Still, their other numbers were consistently MUCH higher than the other 2 outfits as well, so the Iron reading was not really a deciding factor...



Looks like we're moving up in the Bandon/Coquille/Coos Bay area of southern Oregon - hopefully far enough inland to avoid high winds and fog, but still much cooler than the valley areas...

 

[GFritsch]

Wow-- Gary you are the official oil expert at TDR.

Keep going, I only understand a little of what you write, but I only hope that at the end of this you break it down for the dummys like myself.



Thanks for doing the research.

Greg

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Wow-- I only understand a little of what you write,

HAH!



*I* don't understand very much of what I write, either! :-laf :-laf :-laf

 

[paccool]

Oh crap, I just sent off a sample to OAI! The oil was pretty dark after 14000 miles, suspect I have a soot issue. (wonder why? )Will be changing it anyway, just want to see what the report says first.



Gary, you are moving to an area my wife and I like. We keep thinking about buying up there but have not yet. Prices are going up pretty fast there so we'll see where we end up at.

 

[CumminsPower98]

My properly oiled and sealed K&N drop in gave me 51 PPM silicone. Went to BHAF and silicone is about normal now after a few oil changes. I'm glad they work for some but mine didn't do the trick for some reason.

 

[Cliffman]

This should be good! Keep up the good work Gary.

 

[moparguy]

So, Gary, how's the extended mileage testing coming along?



RJR

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"So, Gary, how's the extended mileage testing coming along"



Rather poorly, actually!



After piling up lots of mileage during our recent move from California to Eastern Oregon, the truck spends most of its time just holding down the garage floor...



So far, I have about 11,000 miles on the oil, and only the single amalysis done at about 5000 miles. I think that if I can put a few decent miles on the truck to get it THOROUGHLY up to temperature and boil off any accumulated moisture buildup, I'll just go ahead and do another analysis at what then will be about 12,000 miles. There is a Caterpillar office here in John Day that can provide me with an oil sampling kit, and since one of my last analysis was done by them, it makes a convenient source for the next one. The 15,000+ mile test probably won't happen until late spring, when we can take the 5th wheel out on the road again - all local driving is currently done in my wifes new '05 Ford Escape...

 

[C Schomer]

FWIW, when I bought my Oilguard bypass, they told me that the interval for petro oil can be, very safely, doubled. I believe it. Dad put Frantz on his 1958 farm trucks and I kept the tp changed. The oil stayed clean much longer. It will be interesting to see how long the petro additives will safely go. Craig

 

[Bill Weber]

I had a similar problem with Oil Analyzers. Had been sending in samples every 20k to 30k. Each sample showed a slight increase in metals etc. At the 75k mark the analysis came back looking like new oil. Have not used them since and will not the next time I decide to sample.

 

[Sled Puller]

As always, Sledpuller is correct again!!



How many times have I posted 3000 miles was a joke on ANY oil?? We better be quiet, though, Big Oil may be watching... ... ...



Gary, obviously, you need more samples before you jump to conclusions, but you didn't wait, I see, jumped right in!



Don't forget, guys, all it takes is a smudge of a contaminate to skew the test, or a human error at the lab.



If you see an odd number, call them!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

As is evident from this thread, I've been involved in a rather lengthy extended oil drain "test", using Delo 15/40 - and sent Blackstone Labs my latest oil sample at 13,000 miles nearly a month ago...



Since so much time has passed, I called them this morning to verify the status of my sample, and they show NO record of having it! :{



I realize they (and I!) may be victims of a postal failure in delivery, but this incident combined with their typically SLOOOoooow turnaround of sample results, and an analysis cost that is nearly double what some others charge, pretty much takes them off my list as a reliable source for my analysis business!



This loss of my sample greatly compromises my testing - I can't replace that lost sample, and now can only wait until I hit the next point in my testing, which would probably be sometime in the spring, at 20,000 miles - but if I switch analysis outfits, those test results would not be reliably consistent with what I have so far obtained - so I'll probably just scrap the test bit and start over... #@$%! #@$%!



DAMMIT anyway, 6 months and 15,000 miles of testing down the drain! #@$%!

 

[RTuvell]

Gary,



Now that Blackstone Labs is no longer on your list who do you recommend using for oil analysis? I assume you have to balance the cost per analysis, turnaround time, extent and quality of the lab work, and extent and quality of feedback based on the analysis.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

My feeling at this point, is that to *my* satisfaction, CAT is close enough to Blackstone in testing results, as seen in the sample displayed further up above, that I'll go on ahead to the 20,000 mile point, and send them my next sample - I sure do hate to lose the 13,000 mile sample results tho!



Problem is, with our recent move from California to our new home here in eastern Oregon, I don't drive the truck very much, using my wifes new '05 Ford Escape for the local stuff instead - so it will take much longer to pile up the miles on the truck, compared to prior to our move.



We are considering a trip to southern Illinois, then on to N. Carolina in the spring tho', so that might help...