Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Another Towing Upgrade Question?

[therobzilla]

Ok,



I'm after more towing power. Although I have not posted much on this site. I have however lurked for a VERY long time. I am not one to bother others for questions, when we can use the search button.



But this time I'm going to ask the question, so here goes.





I have all the items and then some listed below, but I want more towing power. I tow up hill about 95% of the time. We reside in Phoenix, AZ and rarely do we not tow North to fourwheel. I tow a very large and very NON aerodynamical trailer, that weighs in total tow rig, trailer and blazer at around 23K.



I want some more power to tow uphill with. I currently dont have any issues with EGT, boost, or Fuel Pressure.



My thought are water/meth injection, or bigger injectors, or Smarty/different fuel box. I have tried the Smarty and it was nice for the low end get up to speed, but seems to be a little short on the top end.



I need some suggestions, I want to have the hp when I need it, and I don't have it now. I'm want useable power.



Your thoughts????



Thanks in advance.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

WELL, you're loaded lots heavier than we are - but the mods in my sig got me the power also listed there. The Smarty listed probably adds very little to my power level - might even cost me a few HP - but with the Comp alone, power is probably the same or greater, and entirely adequate for our 14,000 lb GCW, and hills are NO problem - I can hold the pedal to the mat, and EGT does not exceed 1200 degrees. Hard to compare performance with your setup due to weight difference, but I could easily pull Sierra grades over I-80 in overdrive at WELL over the speed limit anytime I wanted.



My setup might not be enough for your specific wants - but might be useful as a comparison...

 

[Cummins724]

How are your egts while towing that weight? What settings did you run Smarty on? I think you should hold up a little longer before purchasing a box/tuner & see if the new Quadzilla box is as good as it sounds. Just my $. 02

 

[therobzilla]

I have been thinking of the 1. 6's done some reading, but I think with the weight and the extra power, the EGT's are just going to climb. I was thinking of meth/water, as it lowers EGT's and raises HP, and keep in mind my daytime temps are ugly here, well over the 100* mark. But I was hoping for some other hp gains, like maybe HTT upgrade or something?



The killer for me here is the hills and the ambient air temps, and the overall weight.



Thanks for the suggestions.



Rob

 

[therobzilla]

How are your egts while towing that weight? What settings did you run Smarty on? I think you should hold up a little longer before purchasing a box/tuner & see if the new Quadzilla box is as good as it sounds. Just my $. 02

When I was trying out the Smarty from a friend, I had it on the highest setting I think it was either 8 or 9, and it was stacked with the Edge box.



I don't have EGT issues, can't get it up over 1150*, no how no way. Even with all the weight, it still won't climb in EGT's. I has no real power still, or should I say, no real power to tow what I am towing.



Rob

 

[Cummins724]

When I was trying out the Smarty from a friend, I had it on the highest setting I think it was either 8 or 9, and it was stacked with the Edge box.



I don't have EGT issues, can't get it up over 1150*, no how no way. Even with all the weight, it still won't climb in EGT's. I has no real power still, or should I say, no real power to tow what I am towing.



Rob

I tow 15k# through WV & PA mountains..... kinda understand where you are is different, but I'll try to help. I've tried many different towing combos [injectors,turbos,boxes]

1. How much boost are you getting?

2. Do you have the Edge boost elbow installed?

 

[Boondocker]

I don't have EGT issues, can't get it up over 1150*, no how no way. Even with all the weight, it still won't climb in EGT's. I has no real power still, or should I say, no real power to tow what I am towing.



Rob

I hope this is a dumb question, but is your thermocouple in the exhaust manifold (pre-turbo)?



When I ran EZ+275s, it was pretty easy to keep the EGTs in check, but still watch it like a hawk. With the F1 Mach 1. 6, I have to back out of it more it keep EGT in the conservative zone (under 1200), but have plenty of power for my 17K GCW.



It's hard to get more power without raising EGT, make that nearly impossible. H2O/Meth is the only solution to make that claim. A bigger turbo would probably help in the towing department in trade for some everyday (read lag) performance.

 

[DRasmussen]

The answer is simple!!

I think you'll be very happy with the Banks Six Gun Advanced Tuner and Power PDA! There simply is no power-adder that offers more bang-for-the-buck. On an average a 5. 9l 24 valve diesel will experience gains of 126 hp and 290 lb-ft of torque. Try to achieve that with hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars changing out heads, cams, turbos, injectors and headers. No, I don't work for Banks, but as a degreed engineer I sure wish I did! I LOVE this company but more importantly truly appreciate a well engineered product! These guys surely know what they're doing. I only tow 10,200 lbs but can't believe the difference when I up my PDA setting to 5 or 6. It's simply amazing how much more seat-of-the-pants power you can get out of our beloved and yes, unbelievably rugged Cummins 5. 9l!!



Hey, let me tell you that the Six Gun is no joke. This VERY reputable company fully discloses all performance results on their website. From a layman's perspective and one who has "been around the block", I can tell you truthfully that no injector or turbo upgrade will equal the "bang-for-the-buck" that banks can provide. Gale Banks is simply the BEST in the BIZ!!!!!!!!!! Well, that's my very humble two cents worth!



Good luck my Cummins friend and best regards, Dan

 

[ThrottleJockey]

A set of mild towing twins will allow you to run more fuel with a box that delivers fuel only. Not timing. Twins seem to handle EGTs better than most singles.

 

[therobzilla]

I tow 15k# through WV & PA mountains..... kinda understand where you are is different, but I'll try to help. I've tried many different towing combos [injectors,turbos,boxes]

1. How much boost are you getting?

2. Do you have the Edge boost elbow installed?

Right now I'm getting around 30 +- lbs of boost when I'm flogging it hard up hill.



I do have the boost elbow installed currently.



Thanks,

Rob

 

[therobzilla]

I hope this is a dumb question, but is your thermocouple in the exhaust manifold (pre-turbo)?



When I ran EZ+275s, it was pretty easy to keep the EGTs in check, but still watch it like a hawk. With the F1 Mach 1. 6, I have to back out of it more it keep EGT in the conservative zone (under 1200), but have plenty of power for my 17K GCW.



It's hard to get more power without raising EGT, make that nearly impossible. H2O/Meth is the only solution to make that claim. A bigger turbo would probably help in the towing department in trade for some everyday (read lag) performance.

EGT couple is in the exhaust manifold, running a HTT manifold.



I'm not running the F1 Mach 1. 6 injectors, I have however read enough that say's these injectors are good upgrades for towing, but I am asking the questions, before I swap them out again. Towing power from what I have read, is tricky to make without major gains in EGT's.



I agree with your statement regarding water/meth injection, that's why I'm posting up the questions, because I have not really got the whole, "TDR likes the meth/water kits". This place is the first place I come for questions, issues to read, but the meth/water issues is still in the questionable state here on TDR.



Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your thoughts on the subject.



Thanks,

Rob

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

The basic issue, without going into the engine to support external mods (O-ringing, head studs, etc. ) will be the maximum reasonable turbo boost PSI - and whether you can obtain desired power levels purely externally to the engine itself. With a max of 32-36 PSI boost, there's only so much added fuel and timing you can add, and still have a reliable engine - and as far as I have seen, about 450 HP is all you will get with engine-external mods, and still be able to actually USE that power in your circumstances without related issues such as EGT - power you can't USE, is sorta worthless!



That's why I have stopped short with what I currently have - EGT is easily manageable, the power is there for MY application and use - the engine remains reliable - and no internal mods are needed to support my power level and usage.



At some point from here, you will need to budget exactly how much $$$ you are willing to put into the pot for mods - and what level of mods you consider acceptable - all engine-external - or otherwise - THAT will be the largest single controlling factor on what power level is within your grasp.

 

[Boondocker]

water/meth vs. turbo

I made some comments about water/methanol system vs. turbo in this thread



It went like this.

I just want to throw in a comment about water/meth injection as I am asking the exact same question as GCULP. At May Madness, a couple of weeks ago, I spent a good half hour talking with the rep from Snow Performance. I'm very impressed with the quality and engineering of their kit (Stage 3). The price of their kit, possibly even with some upgrades, like a larger tank, is still cheaper than a hybrid turbo. What's more, his estimate on cooling was as much 200 degrees EGT reduction, compared to maybe 100 degrees with a hybrid turbo, plus as much as 75 HP increase, again, more than a turbo.



All this performance and less money too, why didn't I buy it for the show discount price? In a word - complexity. With a water/meth injection system, you need: fluid storage container, hoses, pump, nozzles, controller, boost connection, pyrometer connections, controller, power, switches, and assorted wiring. And then there's the fluid, without which, the system is useless. With a turbo, you need: turbo. There are a lot fewer points of failure and it's always there.



I'm not knocking water/meth systems, they are a great performance value, and I certainly do admire the Snow Performance system. But I have to ask myself, do I want all this complexity? After considerable thought, this type of system is not for me. Does that mean I'm ready to buy a hybrid turbo? Not quite. Whoever coined the term "hybrid turbo" was smart, because if they called it a "compromise turbo", I'm afraid it would enjoy no popularity at all. Now my choice seems to be between finding an HX35/40 compromise turbo for the sake of keeping my Jacobs exhaust brake, or spending 3 times as much for a performance turbo and an inline brake.

Gary,

I don't follow the point of your distinction between internal and external modifications, since therobzilla is contemplating an injector upgrade (which you and I have done same). Not a comprehensive list, but my take on the distinctions:



Internal

O-rings

head studs

injectors

cam

external

"boxes"

turbo

water/meth system

intake/exhaust

fuel pump things



I'm at my fueling limit now with the stock HX-35. I could put on a fueling box for playing around, but it would be useless for towing without more/cooler air.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I made some comments about water/methanol system vs. turbo in this thread



It went like this.





Gary,

I don't follow the point of your distinction between internal and external modifications, since therobzilla is contemplating an injector upgrade (which you and I have done same). Not a comprehensive list, but my take on the distinctions:



Internal

O-rings

head studs

injectors

cam

external

"boxes"

turbo

water/meth system

intake/exhaust

fuel pump things



I'm at my fueling limit now with the stock HX-35. I could put on a fueling box for playing around, but it would be useless for towing without more/cooler air.

We're pretty much agreed on the definition of "internal" vs "external" - other than the injectors, which I pretty much considered an "external" device (sorta like sparkplugs on a gasser), at least as far as access and installation are concerned. A turbo upgrade, either a larger or hybrid, or duals, will pretty much guarantee you the need to remove your head and do internal beefing up to handle the added combustion PSI - but dunno that the 450 HP or so I mentioned earlier with stock engine internals will provide you the power you are looking for. I just tend to shy away from internal mods - they are labor intensive and way more expensive than my wants or needs call for - but that's just me and my needs~



Good luck - I'll be following this thread for the diverse info others provide - and your final choice.

 

[therobzilla]

I made some comments about water/methanol system vs. turbo in this thread



It went like this.





Gary,

I don't follow the point of your distinction between internal and external modifications, since therobzilla is contemplating an injector upgrade (which you and I have done same). Not a comprehensive list, but my take on the distinctions:



Internal

O-rings

head studs

injectors

cam

external

"boxes"

turbo

water/meth system

intake/exhaust

fuel pump things



I'm at my fueling limit now with the stock HX-35. I could put on a fueling box for playing around, but it would be useless for towing without more/cooler air.

I did read you thread on the meth/h2o injection, and your comments have been banging around in the back of my mind for some time, especially the comments about more, "Stuff/gadgets/addons". This is a very valid point for reliability. Your comments were very well stated.



I don't want to be standing on the side of the road *****ing that my,"stuff" is fubar, due to the heat, to conditions, etc... . Just another spare part to carry along.





Is the case maybe that if you are ok with the "suff/another gagets" the meth/h20 will fit the needs?



Thanks,

Rob

 

[Cummins724]

Right now I'm getting around 30 +- lbs of boost when I'm flogging it hard up hill.



I do have the boost elbow installed currently.



Thanks,

Rob

I just recieved my Quadzilla beta box 70hp towing chip. I will be posting the results after I hook it up... . as soon as dinner is over I'll try it out. It is suppose to be like a Smarty, but lower egts... . we'll see.

 

[Cummins724]

Well... got it hooked up & took the truck for a little cruise. It definately fuels as hard as Smarty & power is just as smooth if not smoother. I would say it feels like Smarty on level 3 [which is Smartys best level] but less smoke out the tailpipe. I do have to talk to quad about the pump shuddering at cruising speed & I'm sure he will get it dialed in. You could say that this box is a Smarty, but has adjustable power levels on the fly ranging from stock, 35hp, 70hp which is what we all wanted from Smarty. Remember... I am beta testing the little tow box... . the 180hp box is being tested by other guys right now & saying that it feels like a TST/Smarty stack on kill. I would hold up on buying anything for a little while..... big surprises coming from Quadzilla!

 

[BILLVO]

Is it for second gen only or for 3rd gen also. I have a couple friends in the hunt for something in the future for 3rd gens. They all want edge w/a. I am trying to talk them into tst smarty or just smarty.

 

[MLisle]

Ok,







I have all the items and then some listed below, but I want more towing power. I tow up hill about 95% of the time. We reside in Phoenix, AZ and rarely do we not tow North to fourwheel. I tow a very large and very NON aerodynamical trailer, that weighs in total tow rig, trailer and blazer at around 23k.



Your thoughts????





Since 95% of your driving is uphill at 23k why don't you go with lower (higher numerically) axle ratios? I didn't see the axle ratios mentioned in your signature, but I would think you need 4. 10's, as a minimum, if not 4. 56.

 

[Cummins724]

Is it for second gen only or for 3rd gen also. I have a couple friends in the hunt for something in the future for 3rd gens. They all want edge w/a. I am trying to talk them into tst smarty or just smarty.

Quad makes one for 3rd gens too called the race box... . adds 140hp. My brother in law has one & it really works well.