Antifreeze Prices

[Souders]

I did some work on my 2006 in the area of the heater core. To do the work needed I lost some of the antifreeze. Calling the local dodge dealer I was quoted a price of $38. 00 per gallon. Checking with CarQuest auto parts they have it for $14. 00 per gallon for Zerex G-05. I called Ashland who makes the Valvoline/Zerex products. They confirmed that the Zerex G-05 sold at CarQuest is the same antifreeze sold to Chrysler for use in our trucks.

Does anyone else have any experence in trying to find the antifreeze needed for our trucks ? I would like to have other sources when traveling in case of problems.

Input appreciated

 

[pullya]

Zerex or Dodge. Make sure it is HOAT. The Zerex G-05 is. Also it is best to use distilled water when you are mixing the anti freeze with water. I think you will find that the Zerex is a lot cheaper although $38 is a little high from Dodge. I just got some for $16. 50 pr gal from Dodge so you might check around a little.

Jay

 

[JSafrit]

I also own an '06 3500; As regular maintenance, I replaced radiator hoses and flushed the entire system @ 100,000miles. Utilized distilled water & Zerex g-05. It is the only HOAT available. Yeah, it's pricy, but then, you don't want to be replacing components that fail due to inmproper coolant.

 

[TimothyLong]

I picked up a gallon of the Zerex G-05 (concentrate, not 50/50) from a NAPA store in Ellicott City, MD just two weeks ago for just a little over $10. Was on my way to work one day and got about half way when I noticed my engine temp was 217 degrees. Pulled over and popped the hood to find that the upper radiator hose had come off of the radiator because the clamp loosened up. I replaced the hose last year and I also replace the OEM spring clamp with a screw/band clamp. I'm not so sure that was the brightest move. The part that really sucked was that I had 0 tools with me because my saddle box broke about two months ago and I haven't gotten a new one yet. Called my niece to come get me (my wife was at work) and drove me to the NAPA store (it was closer than going back home) where I got a screw driver and the Zerex, then went to a super market to get a gallon of distilled water all for less than $20. Even though I had my truck pulled off to the side as far as I could get, I was more worried about some goof ball hitting me than I was about fixing my truck. It's not easy pouring coolant into the radiator with one eye and keeping a watch on traffic with the other!

 

[JJPage]

What does HOAT signify? (what's it stand for)



I have been using Fleetguard ES Compleat, it is a 50/50 premixed propylene glycol. I know it is for Diesels that have water cooled piston liners, to prevent pitting of the liners due to low DCA/SCA levels.



I do not see HOAT anywhere on this product, but it does state for "all diesel, gasoline and natural gas engines, including Cummins, Caterpillar, International, Volvo, Detroit Diesel, and Mack.



Am I putting components of my coolant system in jeopardy by not using a HOAT product?

 

[HBarlow]

IIRC the Dodge owner's manuals are very specific in stating that HOAT antifreeze must be used in later model Rams.

I changed the coolant on my previous '06 and found the Zerez G-05 HOAT product available at local Autozone stores at a reasonable price.

 

[TimothyLong]

What does HOAT signify?



I have been using Fleetgaurd ES Compleat, it is a 50/50 premixed propylene glycol. I know it is for Diesels that have water cooled piston liners, to prevent pitting of the liners due to low DCA/SCA levels.



I do not see HOAT anywhere on this product, but it does state for "all diesel, gasoline and natural gas engines, including Cummins, Caterpillar, International, Volvo, Detroit Diesel, and Mack.



Am I putting components of my coolant system in jeopardy by not using a HOAT product?

HOAT stands for Hybrid Organic Acid Technology and is the preferred coolant for Chrysler and Ford vehicles. GM uses DEX-Cool which is an OAT (Organic Acid Technology) coolant. I'm not 100% on the chemistry, but I believe that it's supposed to be less reactive with your coolant system. Meaning it's easier on the system. It's good for at least 100K miles between changes and is probably more "environmentally friendly" (Al Gore approved). While HOAT coolant is preferred, I have seen on TDR where folks have run the OAT coolant with no problems, while some have had problems. Perhaps some other coolant gurus on here can fill in the blanks about the chemistry and the effects on your engine.



The one you are using has an additive to help prevent cavitational erosion, a big problem for engines with water cooled cylinder sleeves. Our ISB's do not have water cooled sleeves, so it's not an issue for us. Regardless of what the coolant you are using says it is good for, if it doesn't say HOAT it's not a HOAT coolant. As has been said, the only one I know available (besides the MOPAR coolant) is the Zerex G-05.

 

[pullya]

JJ

If it doesn't say specifically that it is HOAT I would not use it. The only 2 that I know of is Zerex and Dodge(Zerex makes it for Dodge and puts a different color dye in it). Zerex is by far the cheapest.

Jay

 

[JJPage]

Your right about the owners manual. HOAT = hybrid organic additive technology, also our engines were not designed for propylene glycol, it is not recomended.



I guess I will be removing it from my truck, we use it in all of our Cummins/Onan gensets at work, recommended by Cummins Northwest. We have all different sizes of units, from 20kw up to V16 1500kw sets, including several 5. 9 100kw units, Fleetguard Compleat ES in all units.



I purchased it because I get it at our fleet price, my mistake. I am going to ask the service dept at Cummins Northwest what the deal is, see what they have to say about it.



Thanks for the input HBarlow, TimothyLong, pullya.

 

[pullya]

The best discussion of this subject I've ever read is now on dodgedieselresource.com under 3rd generation nondrivetrain titled "Radiator Flush". If this post is out of line the mod can delete it.

Jay

 

[JJPage]

The best discussion of this subject I've ever read is now on dodgedieselresource.com under 3rd generation nondrivetrain titled "Radiator Flush". If this post is out of line the mod can delete it.

Jay

OK, went over to DTR, found the thread.



http://www.cumminsfiltration.com/htm..._compleat.html



This is the product I currently have in my truck, I see it does say OAT in the product info literature, I could not find that on the plastic jug it comes in. I am wondering if there is a material in our heater cores, or coolant valves that require the HOAT?



Re-read..... there is an ES Compleat OAT, that's not what I have.



Thanks Again, Jess

 

[rbattelle]

I have been using Fleetguard ES Compleat, it is a 50/50 premixed propylene glycol.
Am I putting components of my coolant system in jeopardy by not using a HOAT product?

I guess I will be removing it from my truck, we use it in all of our Cummins/Onan gensets at work, recommended by Cummins Northwest. We have all different sizes of units, from 20kw up to V16 1500kw sets, including several 5. 9 100kw units, Fleetguard Compleat ES in all units.

I've been running that exact coolant (Fleetguard ES Compleat PG) since 2004. Once in awhile I add a small bit of the ES extender to it.

I went with it because it was recommended by the local Cummins shop, and I am aware that the owners manual specifically advises against the use of PG. I would rather have used EG, but the Cummins shop screwed up (long story).

Anyway, in 5 years and 60k miles I've been fine. In the summer the coolant runs generally between 190 and 196 unloaded at 60-70 MPH on the highway.

In winter, it runs 185-190 under the same conditions.

I've never been able to figure out why Dodge says not to use PG. Theoretically, PG has slightly less heat transfer efficiency than EG, and a slightly lower boiling point. I have long suspected that the recommendation against PG might be a carryover from their gas engines, but I'm not sure.

Cummins certainly seems to have no problems with PG (as you point out). I don't see where there would be any material incompatibilities in the Dodge supplied components (radiator and heater core), but time will tell.

In the meantime I can't complain about the Fleetguard coolant. The inside of the radiator looks beautiful, and the fluid is just as bright and clean as it was the day it was installed. Looks like blueberry Kool Aid. Good enough to drink.

Ryan

 

[Wingate]

lemme see, my son's truck, my 89 Cummins, my 94 Dodge gasser, 97 Dodge gasser, 04 Dodge gasser, my wifes old POS grand am..... six(6) atvs(Polaris and Arctic Cat), two tractors(J. D. and Ford) and a 76 ford 460... all running Cat ELC 50/50 pre-mix... Never had any problems (knock on wood) ...

Personally, I believe its more of a matter of maintaining your vehicle and all its systems properly vs. making sure you have 127 different containers of specific oils, lubes, etc... for every piece of equipment you own.

 

[DaveHess]

Ryan: I know there are threads out there about how to completely drain our coolant. I too plan to use Fleetguard ES Compleat. With that said however, I like reading your posts and am curious on how you flushed and drained your 2003. Would you expound for me?

 

[GaryOwen]

HOAT is less corrosive on aluminum. Older vehicles had copper radiators and regular ethylene glycol was not a problem. Third gen radiators are aluminum and probably the heater core also. I have known a number of people that used regular EG in third gens with no apparent problem, but I always stuck with Zerex G-05 just to be on the safe side.

 

[JJPage]

I spoke with Ted (lead Onan service tech for Cummins Northwest Spokane), Cummins states no problem, you can even mix PG/EG and no problem. Cummins had Fleetguard Compleat ES developed for their engines, it will have no ill effects.



Chrysler(according to Ted) states the opposite as far as mixing PG/EG, Chrysler does not want their customers using PG in the north for instance, then travel to New Mexico, need coolant, cannot obtain PG, so they add EG.

They are concerned with warranty issues, because the Corperations that produce the two, say they are not compatable... .



He said that anyone wanting to flush the system, should drain as much as possible,(he said you could disconnect one heater hose and push about 5/10 lbs of air through it to remove the coolant from the core). Fill with water, run until the thermostat opens, then drain again, and then add the new coolant.



He only carries the premixed Compleat ES in his service truck, why carry two types of coolant, when Cummins says it is ok to mix, and it will not harm the system. He said he always asks the customer first, if they do not want the mix, he changes it all out, but it will not void any Cummins warranty.



Guess I'll leave it in my truck after all.



Edit: Thanks rbattelle, I have had it in my truck since early 04 also, but my odo reads 24744, old but little use.

 

[HBarlow]

Speaking only for myself and my truck, I'm not going to ignore the specifications in the Dodge owner's manual based on the opinion of the "lead Onan service tech" in a Cummins dealership.

Hearing the Onan tech's opinion is not even close to receiving an official reply in writing from Cummins or Dodge regarding a Cummins engine.

I have no idea what the reason is but I trust that there is a reason for the Dodge owner's manual to specify HOAT G-05 antifreeze in my Dodge.

I've talked to many Dodge dealership employees including service technicians who didn't know as much as I do about my Dodge. I'm confident the service techs are better mechanics that I am but that does not mean the tech is knowledgeable about such things as factory specified anti-freeze.

 

[rbattelle]

Ryan: I know there are threads out there about how to completely drain our coolant. I too plan to use Fleetguard ES Compleat. With that said however, I like reading your posts and am curious on how you flushed and drained your 2003. Would you expound for me?

Thank you for the compliment. I am somewhat ashamed to say, I didn't change the coolant out. I let Cummins Bridgeway in Cincinnati change it. That was the first and last time someone else worked on my engine. I made the mistake of assuming a Cummins shop would do it properly. You can read about what happened here.



Now, if I were going to do the service again myself (which, BTW, I should never have to do - the Compleat should last the life of the truck), I'd do what JJPage posted.



I was recently talking with someone who said there are block drains for the water jacket in the 5. 9. I would probably open those up to drain the block, drain the radiator, and drain the heater core (a shot of LOW PRESSURE compressed air for the heater core). Then refill with distilled water and run the engine until the thermostat opened. Repeat the process once or twice, then refill with 50/50 mix.

I spoke with Ted (lead Onan service tech for Cummins Northwest Spokane), Cummins states no problem, you can even mix PG/EG and no problem. Cummins had Fleetguard Compleat ES developed for their engines, it will have no ill effects.

When I researched this back in 2003-2004 I contacted Cummins and Fleetguard directly and asked them about it. Here's the email Fleetguard sent me:

Thank you for contacting Fleetguard.



When using our ES Compleat, we know of no chemical issues when mixing with other manufactures antifreeze. Since your Dodge does not have a water filter, ES liquid should be added on a annual basis in order to keep your antifreeze in proper working conditions. If you maintain you cooling system with our ES Compleat and add the recommended amount or our ES extender, this antifreeze can be used until the first engine rebuild unless, for some reason, the cooling system gets contaminated with fuel or oil.

Now, I don't add the extender every year. In fact, I can't remember the last time I added it (so it must be time to add again). The extender is meant for medium engine sizes (11 to 15 liters displacement), with large coolant capacities. It's also meant for high mileage engines - I think the bottle says add it annually or every 150k miles.



Since my truck is such a light-use vehicle, I figure I only need a tiny bit to replace what evaporates. I think maybe this fall I'll add a little bit (half pint?).



Ryan

 

[HBarlow]

Ryan,

Does the '03 Ram owner's manual specify HOAT G-05 anti-freeze?

My '01 did not, it required ordinary anti-freeze but my '06 spec'd HOAT.

I have no idea why the specified coolant changed between '01 and '06 models.

 

[rbattelle]

As of '03 the coolant was changed to HOAT. I believe this was primarily because it's a long-life coolant, permitting a 5-year 100k mile change interval without the dangers associated with Dex-Cool. I believe Ford is using exactly the same coolant (Zerex G-05) dyed yellow rather than orange. Only GM is still using Dex-Cool.

The Fleetguard Compleat line is substantially more expensive than Zerex G-05, but it's also good for 350k miles.

Ryan