Wondering guys - hey I have the newer and older high capacity mags for my toy guns - the semi auto's - BUT that said - if they weren't readily available -there could have been a differencs in the death toll ... . I don't want to get into all the circumstances BUT I think it's hard to disagree that this was an outcome of the ban removal... ...
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Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting Any ???? on the Increased Capacity Mags ??
- Thread starter hammersley
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He killed and wounded how many?
I reckon he reloaded more than once, even with high cap mags. . Keep in mind, the high caps were legal, during the ban, they just weren't allowedto make any more. Its not like they ran out in the ten years though.
Too bad he didn't use a muzzleloading flintlock, maybe the cops would have been more brave to do something instead of watch from outside.
I reckon he reloaded more than once, even with high cap mags. . Keep in mind, the high caps were legal, during the ban, they just weren't allowedto make any more. Its not like they ran out in the ten years though.
Too bad he didn't use a muzzleloading flintlock, maybe the cops would have been more brave to do something instead of watch from outside.
Archie Bunker said:
Some things just can't be said better by anyone else. :-laf :-laf
Edward
There were several hours between the times of the first and last victims. How long does it take to release an empty magazine and insert a full one? He could have reloaded a revolver several times, or even a single shot handgun like a TC.
How would you determine the maximum size for a pistol magazine? Is 10 OK but 11 too big? Any maximum size is arbitrary and wouldn't have made much, if any, difference in this instance.
How would you determine the maximum size for a pistol magazine? Is 10 OK but 11 too big? Any maximum size is arbitrary and wouldn't have made much, if any, difference in this instance.
I've never heard how many
rounds were fired - has anybody seen the number??????? I don't know how many mags he had or anything... ... just wondering about how much ammo he really had - and I thought he also had a 22..... I've wondered if the injured folks were more a victim of the 22... . but again I haven't heard anything along these lines... ...
rounds were fired - has anybody seen the number??????? I don't know how many mags he had or anything... ... just wondering about how much ammo he really had - and I thought he also had a 22..... I've wondered if the injured folks were more a victim of the 22... . but again I haven't heard anything along these lines... ...
Sled Puller,
How long was it between the time the first officer arrived at Norris Hall and entry was made by usinga shotgun to blow the chain/lock off the door?
Are you referring to the officers on the perimeter? Should every officer gone into the building or do you in your expertise think it might be a good idea to have perimeter and contain the scene. Please share your vast knowledge in these types of situations.
Now, how I really feel - Quit talking out your arse.
Brian
ive got a . 45 with 2 12rnd mags and 3 10rnd mags. it doesnt take but a second to drop and slam a new one in. so whats worse, 17 10rnd mags or 10 17rnd mags. what your bringing here is a cheap shot to gun owners. what if he had a 12gauge and a . 22? ive stuffed as much as 50 rnds of 12g shells in my pockets at one time. the guy wouldnt even have to aim to be effective. what we should be asking is why this coward had weapons in his possesion? one guy with a CCW could have changed this outcome for the better. there are lots of college students out there that have licenses but cant carry on school grounds. whats needed is education and better laws when it comes to self protection.
Finally someone who understand fire power. A 12ga home defender pump shot gun with #1 buck is considerably more lethal than a hand gun. Especially when you have people confined in rooms in nice little rows. But no one is even talking about shotguns they have this fixation with hand guns.
Edward
Let's think Edward..... why the Fixation with handguns - (and I own more than I should - revolver poor... ) don't you think someone Might - I mean just Might - notice one carrying a combat shotgun??????? If Joe Smoooo come to your house/work/school pick a place - unless he's naked - he can pretty much hide his revolver/pistol hence the need for the CWP - don't think you can get a CWP for a Benelli M4 Super 90 or any other defense shotgun... .....
But no question, close in under 40 yards - they are 100X more effective... ... . than anything normally available.
Hange on there pal!!!!
Hey I'll bet I own more high round mags than you do and I've been an NRA life member since 1951 - grandfather made sure of that - he was gassed in WWI - but still became a Train Engineer for 52 years and an excellent Gunsmith... . Let's be honest - the more rounds in a mag the less loading - and therefore the less chance to be stopped - if that were to happen! Can you honestly think that if someone came in your house you wouldn't care if he had a 10 round mag or a 17 round one Be honest - sometime those darn inconvient facts just get in the way .....
Hey I'll bet I own more high round mags than you do and I've been an NRA life member since 1951 - grandfather made sure of that - he was gassed in WWI - but still became a Train Engineer for 52 years and an excellent Gunsmith... . Let's be honest - the more rounds in a mag the less loading - and therefore the less chance to be stopped - if that were to happen! Can you honestly think that if someone came in your house you wouldn't care if he had a 10 round mag or a 17 round one
Be honest - sometime those darn inconvient facts just get in the way .....Well, unless you plan to go to every house in America, and round up high cap mags, the point is moot.
Besides, have you ever seen a speedloader in action on a 6- shooter? Impressive.
Have you seen the baggy jeans these flakes wear? You can easily conceal a shotgun down a leg.
Especially after a little creative hacksaw work- oh wait, cutting of the barrel is illegal, so we dont have to worry about them doing that!!!!LMAO!!
Gun free Utopia!!! We can only hope!!
Besides, have you ever seen a speedloader in action on a 6- shooter? Impressive.
Have you seen the baggy jeans these flakes wear? You can easily conceal a shotgun down a leg.
Especially after a little creative hacksaw work- oh wait, cutting of the barrel is illegal, so we dont have to worry about them doing that!!!!LMAO!!
Gun free Utopia!!! We can only hope!!
Mike Ellis
TDR MEMBER
The news reports claim the gunman fired on the order of 250 rounds, and witnesses said he would calmly and methodically reload, taking a minute or so each time. Since it takes only a few seconds to swap magazines, this would imply that the killer may have actually taken the time to reload magazines. Certainly he had plenty of time, as no police rushed the building and the victims followed protocol and stayed in place.
Would the number of bullets per magazine have mattered? In my opinion, no. Just like the Columbine killers, the guy was able to enter the school building laden down with a tactical vest, a backpack full of magazines, and enough chain to block off the doors. That's a lot of gear to carry. So how much damage would he have been able to commit if he had instead carried in a 5-gallon bucket full to the brim with 1911 style . 45 ACP mags, topped up with only 7 rounds each? I suspect the outcome would have been the same - he would have killed as many people as he wanted to, until he got tired of killing them and decided to take his own life.
It is perhaps worth remembering that the worst mass murder in US history, not counting terrorist actions, was committed with a gallon of gas at a nightclub in New York. Would the outcome have been different if the murderer had been limited to pint bottles, or a slow-pour gas can? Unlikely.
It is not the tool that needs to be addressed. High capacity 9mm pistols and magazines have been available to the public since John Browning's famous Browning Hi-Power came out in the 1930's. For 30 years anybody could buy one mail order if they wanted to, even kids. Kids could actually carry guns to school, in fact many schools had rifle ranges and shooting clubs -- yet we didn't have mass murders at the school. What changed? Bluntly put, it was our culture.
50 years ago the USA was a thoroughly homogeneous nation with a 90% white majority. The population was pretty diverse in some areas (particularly the big cities), but we shared a pretty uniform set of standards as to what it meant to be an American. People spoke English. Kids were expected to behave, and disciplined harshly if they didn't. Kids who were bullied could fight back without fear of being expelled or criminally charged for fighting right alongside the aggressor. Things worked pretty darned well for the most part.
Then in the 1960's we changed our immigration law, and the Baby Boomer generation changed how we look at the role of the individual in the nation. Instead of self-reliance and independence, we devoted ourselves to self absorption and decadence, "If it feels good do it. " Over the next 30 years we made lots of idiotic decisions about our society. We abandoned the kids to the idiot box and the babysitter so Mom and Dad could pursue their own pleasures in an endless quest to remain teenagers forever. We quit disciplining them because it was too much trouble and possibly mean and hurtful. We started treating bully and victim identically, because it might be unfair to single out one and make value judgements. We took areas that had been homogeneous and forced in multiculturalism, developing the incredible ability to be surprised every day when the clash of cultures produced strife between different groups of people. Why, who'd-a thunk that different groups of people would squabble amongst themselves, just because thousands of years of recorded history demonstrate it over and over and over again?
After 30 years of relentless deconstruction, American society went into labor and gave birth to a twisted freak - Columbine. In predictable fashion, we agonized over what caused it - high capacity magazines, violent video games, Gothic makeup, Adolf Hitler - surely there was something, ANYTHING that we could blame... . something that didn't involve putting the blame squarely where it lies, on our own stupidity and cowardice. The stupidity of purposefully changing our nation for the worse in a fit of Kumbayah liberal feel-goodery, and the cowardice of refusing to give our children the loving homes and disciplined schools they need.
And while we sit here debating these topics, the deconstruction of our society continues apace. We continue to import MORE diversity and more division and cultural strife, while encouraging the further decay of our society and the American family. We satiate ourselves with bread and circuses, as our leaders do a stunningly modern imitation of Nero fiddling while Rome burns.
Perhaps, God willing, we will someday have the courage and wisdom to face up to the bitter reality of our policies: We are very unlikely to see things get better, when we go out of our way to make things worse.
Would the number of bullets per magazine have mattered? In my opinion, no. Just like the Columbine killers, the guy was able to enter the school building laden down with a tactical vest, a backpack full of magazines, and enough chain to block off the doors. That's a lot of gear to carry. So how much damage would he have been able to commit if he had instead carried in a 5-gallon bucket full to the brim with 1911 style . 45 ACP mags, topped up with only 7 rounds each? I suspect the outcome would have been the same - he would have killed as many people as he wanted to, until he got tired of killing them and decided to take his own life.
It is perhaps worth remembering that the worst mass murder in US history, not counting terrorist actions, was committed with a gallon of gas at a nightclub in New York. Would the outcome have been different if the murderer had been limited to pint bottles, or a slow-pour gas can? Unlikely.
It is not the tool that needs to be addressed. High capacity 9mm pistols and magazines have been available to the public since John Browning's famous Browning Hi-Power came out in the 1930's. For 30 years anybody could buy one mail order if they wanted to, even kids. Kids could actually carry guns to school, in fact many schools had rifle ranges and shooting clubs -- yet we didn't have mass murders at the school. What changed? Bluntly put, it was our culture.
50 years ago the USA was a thoroughly homogeneous nation with a 90% white majority. The population was pretty diverse in some areas (particularly the big cities), but we shared a pretty uniform set of standards as to what it meant to be an American. People spoke English. Kids were expected to behave, and disciplined harshly if they didn't. Kids who were bullied could fight back without fear of being expelled or criminally charged for fighting right alongside the aggressor. Things worked pretty darned well for the most part.
Then in the 1960's we changed our immigration law, and the Baby Boomer generation changed how we look at the role of the individual in the nation. Instead of self-reliance and independence, we devoted ourselves to self absorption and decadence, "If it feels good do it. " Over the next 30 years we made lots of idiotic decisions about our society. We abandoned the kids to the idiot box and the babysitter so Mom and Dad could pursue their own pleasures in an endless quest to remain teenagers forever. We quit disciplining them because it was too much trouble and possibly mean and hurtful. We started treating bully and victim identically, because it might be unfair to single out one and make value judgements. We took areas that had been homogeneous and forced in multiculturalism, developing the incredible ability to be surprised every day when the clash of cultures produced strife between different groups of people. Why, who'd-a thunk that different groups of people would squabble amongst themselves, just because thousands of years of recorded history demonstrate it over and over and over again?
After 30 years of relentless deconstruction, American society went into labor and gave birth to a twisted freak - Columbine. In predictable fashion, we agonized over what caused it - high capacity magazines, violent video games, Gothic makeup, Adolf Hitler - surely there was something, ANYTHING that we could blame... . something that didn't involve putting the blame squarely where it lies, on our own stupidity and cowardice. The stupidity of purposefully changing our nation for the worse in a fit of Kumbayah liberal feel-goodery, and the cowardice of refusing to give our children the loving homes and disciplined schools they need.
And while we sit here debating these topics, the deconstruction of our society continues apace. We continue to import MORE diversity and more division and cultural strife, while encouraging the further decay of our society and the American family. We satiate ourselves with bread and circuses, as our leaders do a stunningly modern imitation of Nero fiddling while Rome burns.
Perhaps, God willing, we will someday have the courage and wisdom to face up to the bitter reality of our policies: We are very unlikely to see things get better, when we go out of our way to make things worse.
Hey,brian,enlighten us.
This weekend,I discussed this with a police officer who was testing my shooting skills for a ccw permit. He stated that at Columbine,the law enforcement DID concentrate on containment and evacuation, too much time taken to set up a command post, while people were bleeding to death inside. He also stated that Columbine changed how things are done these days
He also stressed that if a local incident were to occur,it would be immediate entry with the one or two officers on duty to try to take the shooter out. No waiting for back-up. The shooting test was very revealing,stressing draw-to fire drills,quick multiple shots,engaging multiple targets,and shooting from cover.
I will have to admit that when I saw the parade of equipment at VA Tech,I first thought that it may have been handled like Columbine,but I think that is not the case. Please tell us what you know about how things will be handled in your community or organization.
Let's think Edward..... why the Fixation with handguns - (and I own more than I should - revolver poor... ) don't you think someone Might - I mean just Might - notice one carrying a combat shotgun??????? If Joe Smoooo come to your house/work/school pick a place - unless he's naked - he can pretty much hide his revolver/pistol hence the need for the CWP - don't think you can get a CWP for a Benelli M4 Super 90 or any other defense shotgun... .....
But no question, close in under 40 yards - they are 100X more effective... ... . than anything normally available.
Lets see this guy can walk into a school building with enough chain to lock the doors and at least 250 rounds of ammo for two guns. I don't' know how many mags he had. And he couldn't get a shout gun under a coat? The fact is he didn't but it goes back to the fixation with hand guns. The libs want to take them and if they do say hello to Mr 12ga. People will find a way to do what they want they aren't stupid. That is unless they get their degree in liberalism where they are taught to believe that government can manage everything including fire power.
Edward
Last edited:
Active Shooter scenarios (Columbine & VA Tech) would be handled the same way in my community. We normally have 3 officers & a Sgt on duty at minimums. Full staff is 5 officers plus a Sgt. 2 officers will be on scene almost anywhere in town within 2-3 minutes and would form an entry team whose sole purpose is to locate and stop the shooter(s). Hopefully, 3-4 officers will be on scene simultaneously and the entry team would consist of 3-4 officers to give the entry team better odds. The perimeter would be handled by other departments under a mutual aid scenario.
Brian
It is rare, extremely rare that anyone makes an attempt to tell Mike to "stick it". His posts are well thought out, insightful, (and sometimes cutting) and articulate.
Two thumbs up (as usual) to Mike for his contributions.
Thanks Brian, very informative, Glad to see those first 3-4 would not be wasting lives, setting up a COMMAND CENTER!LOL
Someone else posted, was it loncray? that more guns would mean more chaos, and a chance to get killed by the police.
Is anyone concerned about the first wave of police to arrive, getting shot by the other departments?
Actually, I think you're referring to my comment about CCW holders being shot by the entry team. Somebody with a gun raised turns towards the entry team and person is getting shot first, questions later.
Regarding getting shot by other departments: Not a big concern since uniforms are generally worn by patrol officers... ... Plain clothes officers on scene are going to have jackets/shirts with BIG letters on them spelling "Police" or "Sheriff".
Brian
Brian
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