As far as getting in touch with D. C. rep. HE only covers so many stores in a given area. Call some stores and act like you work at one somewhere and ask WARRANTY clerk or a service writer etc where rep is that you need to find him to discuss a customers problem. You'll find him with a little detective work.
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any solution for vibration?
- Thread starter cpizz
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Sag2... yeah, I went for 0 degrees cancellation.
The service manual correctly states the rules for cardan joints:
Operating angle should be between . 5 and 3 degrees.
Cancellation should be within 1 degree (i. e. , 0 is perfect cancelllation).
I have the good fortune of working for an aerospace manufacturing company. We have some pretty sofisticated measuring equipment. The digital protractor that I borrowed could measure to within 0. 01 degrees! And it has just been calibrated and certified.
It sort of drove me crazy using it because if I measured the truck on two different days I got two different answers. Then I figured out I was causing the problem. When I was jacking up the rearend I was putting the floor jack under the differentail and lifting it until both wheels were slightly off the ground (I don't know if you noticed but the AA differentials have a "jacking pad" built into them). Anyway, jacking on the pad actually caused the diff to to rotate. I had to quit doing that and just measure everything with the tires on the ground.
The service manual correctly states the rules for cardan joints:
Operating angle should be between . 5 and 3 degrees.
Cancellation should be within 1 degree (i. e. , 0 is perfect cancelllation).
I have the good fortune of working for an aerospace manufacturing company. We have some pretty sofisticated measuring equipment. The digital protractor that I borrowed could measure to within 0. 01 degrees! And it has just been calibrated and certified.
It sort of drove me crazy using it because if I measured the truck on two different days I got two different answers. Then I figured out I was causing the problem. When I was jacking up the rearend I was putting the floor jack under the differentail and lifting it until both wheels were slightly off the ground (I don't know if you noticed but the AA differentials have a "jacking pad" built into them). Anyway, jacking on the pad actually caused the diff to to rotate. I had to quit doing that and just measure everything with the tires on the ground.
I thought about re indexing mine just to try something since I wasn't getting anywhere with the dealer. But I was concerned that if I did anything to it they would use that as an out by saying I caused the problem. I'm glad mine is fixed but I'm still put out about how it all went down.
I have one more thing to take care of and then I should be done with this fiasco. I went by our local Chrysler Jeep dealership who's in the process of also becoming a Dodge dealership in the near future and sat down with the service manager. When I explained what I'd been through with my new truck at the Dodge dealership he simply replied "unbelievable". He said he's had a handful of people come to him for business that were unhappy with the Dodge dealership. He's a way more personable manager than the hot head at Dodge. We've been very happy with his service dept in the few times we've taken our cars to him. He'll be handling anything that doesn't require major engine or ring and pinion work for now. I told him about the damaged rim and the P rated valve stem that was put in the replacement rim. The parts man said there's one stem that's listed for the 2500 and one for the 3500 dually. The one that's in my rim isn't it and he agreed it could be a safety issue with the tires at 80psi for towing. Although I'll have to pay a small amount to have them install the proper valve stem since it's not a warranty issue but a dealership issue with the other dealership, it'll be worth the peace of mind when we're out with the 5th wheel.
Suncoast Chrysler Jeep in Seminole Fl does and has worked on many full sized trucks so I won't be thier experimental lab rat by any means. I've seen them in the bays and one mechanic owns a Cummins powered dually. Dayton Andrews Dodge in St. Pete Fl has also done good work for us and has a great staff. So I still have two good dealerships close by to choose from.
I have one more thing to take care of and then I should be done with this fiasco. I went by our local Chrysler Jeep dealership who's in the process of also becoming a Dodge dealership in the near future and sat down with the service manager. When I explained what I'd been through with my new truck at the Dodge dealership he simply replied "unbelievable". He said he's had a handful of people come to him for business that were unhappy with the Dodge dealership. He's a way more personable manager than the hot head at Dodge. We've been very happy with his service dept in the few times we've taken our cars to him. He'll be handling anything that doesn't require major engine or ring and pinion work for now. I told him about the damaged rim and the P rated valve stem that was put in the replacement rim. The parts man said there's one stem that's listed for the 2500 and one for the 3500 dually. The one that's in my rim isn't it and he agreed it could be a safety issue with the tires at 80psi for towing. Although I'll have to pay a small amount to have them install the proper valve stem since it's not a warranty issue but a dealership issue with the other dealership, it'll be worth the peace of mind when we're out with the 5th wheel.
Suncoast Chrysler Jeep in Seminole Fl does and has worked on many full sized trucks so I won't be thier experimental lab rat by any means. I've seen them in the bays and one mechanic owns a Cummins powered dually. Dayton Andrews Dodge in St. Pete Fl has also done good work for us and has a great staff. So I still have two good dealerships close by to choose from.
Is there a "normal" vib with the CTD (engine)? Mine starts at 2k and runs through around 2. 4k but only in 6th. I figure if it was engine it would be the same range in any gear. Everything I know tells me this is drive line, possibly tires but not probable. I feel it most in the floor board and milder in the steering wheel.
Seems like Dodge will either fix them now or have to fix them later. Won't this kind of vib tear up brgs etc. ?
Seems like Dodge will either fix them now or have to fix them later. Won't this kind of vib tear up brgs etc. ?
Don't leave it at 0 degrees because the needle bearings in your u-joints wont spin (which evens out the load on them) and you'll have a premature failure.
Don't confuse cancellation angle and operating angle.
Cancellation angle is the difference between the two operating angles (one at each end of the shaft). If the two operating angles are exactly the same you will have perfect cancellation, i. e. zero degrees, and no vibration.
Operation angle is the actual angle between the input side of the joint and the output side of the joint. This should be at least . 5 degrees for exactly the reason Prairie Dog mentioned.
Cancellation angle is the difference between the two operating angles (one at each end of the shaft). If the two operating angles are exactly the same you will have perfect cancellation, i. e. zero degrees, and no vibration.
Operation angle is the actual angle between the input side of the joint and the output side of the joint. This should be at least . 5 degrees for exactly the reason Prairie Dog mentioned.
A/C compressor vibe?
Luckily for me - my driveline seems to be smooth at all speeds. What I do have though is a noticeable vibration when the A/C compressor is on at about 2000 - 2100 rpm. Easy to tell as just switch to heater or something that doesn't have it on (A/C and Defrost use it) and it instantly goes away. Not sure if it is a belt flapping or what - but you really feel it in the throttle pedal and some in the wheel. Anybody else noticed this?
Mathew
Luckily for me - my driveline seems to be smooth at all speeds. What I do have though is a noticeable vibration when the A/C compressor is on at about 2000 - 2100 rpm. Easy to tell as just switch to heater or something that doesn't have it on (A/C and Defrost use it) and it instantly goes away. Not sure if it is a belt flapping or what - but you really feel it in the throttle pedal and some in the wheel. Anybody else noticed this?
Mathew
There's an echo in here!
There's some normal engine buzz that can be felt in the steering wheel. The a/c compressor can be felt when it engages and the belt does play a low frequency tune when the compressor is on. When you get on the throttle, you'll feel some torque vibration in the driveline if you have any power at all. Especially if you have a big load tagging along behind you. The Cummins has a characteristic vibration at around 1400rpm and again at 2100rpm. O/D seems to amplify this slight vibration. At idle in gear with an automatic, the Cummins can rattle your change in the ashtray. The Cummins also has a smooth spot at around 1750rpm and at 2250rpm. That's about 55mph and over 70mph in my auto/4. 10. If there's an unusual droning or pulsating "rumrumrumrum" type vibration at these rpms, something is out of round or out of balance. Mine was slight but once I heard and felt it, I knew I had a driveshaft out of balance and I couldn't forget about it. It can't be of any benefit to the output shaft and pinion brgs. So it bugged me until I got it replaced. Now it's gone and 55mph/1750rpm is silky smooth and 67mph/2100 has a normal mild engine buzz in the steering wheel but no droning vibration in the doors, seat and mirror. That's how it's suposed to be.
There's some normal engine buzz that can be felt in the steering wheel. The a/c compressor can be felt when it engages and the belt does play a low frequency tune when the compressor is on. When you get on the throttle, you'll feel some torque vibration in the driveline if you have any power at all. Especially if you have a big load tagging along behind you. The Cummins has a characteristic vibration at around 1400rpm and again at 2100rpm. O/D seems to amplify this slight vibration. At idle in gear with an automatic, the Cummins can rattle your change in the ashtray. The Cummins also has a smooth spot at around 1750rpm and at 2250rpm. That's about 55mph and over 70mph in my auto/4. 10. If there's an unusual droning or pulsating "rumrumrumrum" type vibration at these rpms, something is out of round or out of balance. Mine was slight but once I heard and felt it, I knew I had a driveshaft out of balance and I couldn't forget about it. It can't be of any benefit to the output shaft and pinion brgs. So it bugged me until I got it replaced. Now it's gone and 55mph/1750rpm is silky smooth and 67mph/2100 has a normal mild engine buzz in the steering wheel but no droning vibration in the doors, seat and mirror. That's how it's suposed to be.
... i have to Chime in here... . most of the factory reps have degrees guys,,,,,thats how they got the job... . by studying HARD in school then doin the tenure at Enterprize renta car... they have a degrees and KNOW EVERY THING about a vehicle... . my last last experience with a Factory DUDE... i asked him flat out... "you sir most likely had to have a degree to get where you are at... may I ask what degree was in?" please... he responded proudly "Philosphy"... great. . nothing in mechanical engineering or basic auto knowledge... Philosophy... . how to stroke a customer to go away... thats all... . with all due respect to the REAL mechanic and not TECHNICIANS (parts changers) out there... . nobody wants to FIX anything ... just replace parts and NOT figure out why or how it happend... I am an retired Porsche mechanic and it drove me nuts not to fix something that lasted 100k or more they (the facty) just wanted to replace it..... I guess what my point is here there are WAY to many ignorant and ARROGANT people in the auto biz that are only in it for the quick buck and not for the abilty to BROADEN their minds and FIND out why and what caused what to fail... most techs are NOT mechaincs, they are parts changers and code readers... . not the guy who ACTUALY will take the time to figure it out and FIX it... thats a MECHANIC... I know there are few guys out there that are hotter than a machine gun in Iraq at me right now but they are the ones that I am refering to ... . not the TRUE mechanics that take pride in their skills of diagnosing
AND REPAIRING instead of replacing... . I should have ONLY offended the parts changers of the world not the real Mechanic
ok... i am done... flame on!!... i have my fire suit on!
Cameron:-{}
AND REPAIRING instead of replacing... . I should have ONLY offended the parts changers of the world not the real Mechanic
ok... i am done... flame on!!... i have my fire suit on!
Cameron:-{}
I hate to dissapoint you but you'll get no flame from me as I agree completely. I also hate to tell you we have the same scenario in the aviation industry. 
When i first started in the auto field we rebuilt alt/starters/water pumps/replaced ac clutch assys/wheel cyls. /calipers etc. It changed totally from about 1984 up. When front wheel drive started to hit big. The attitude of techs changed also in a big way. I stated this before on these posts. Most will quit you in a flash and tell you up front if not a ton of autos in line and big money they will leave in a heartbeat. I have had MASTER techs making 60k a year get a new model with a weird problem and go so far and come in the office and TELL you(manager)either put it on hold and give me a BIG money job or guarantee me good money on this warranty job or i'll head to the house. ITS amazing!
rbattelle
TDR MEMBER
Misc. Ramblings...
I too experience a slight vibration/drone around 2000 RPM or so (about 70 MPH in OD), but nothing that shakes the rearview mirror. I just keep telling myself it's normal (which makes me feel better ). Plus, I only have 350 miles on it, and expect some things to even out as they wear in (engine is already getting notably quieter!).
I also have the A/C compressor vibration others have reported. As well as the "thud" when it engages for the first time. I consider the thud to be normal, as I have experienced this in many other cars. It only occurs when I'm at high RPM (such as on the highway), and only when the switch is first depressed (which is when the compression ratio within the compressor is greatest).
If you think about it, driveshaft designers have it tough. The vibration characteristics of any shaft are primarily a function of mass, rotational speed, load, and mass distribution. Any shaft will only be truly balanced at one specific mass, RPM, load, and mass distribution. If we hold mass and RPM constant and change the load (which will change mass distribution), the shaft will vibrate. Some will vibrate more than others, depending on their mass and torsional rigidity. But driveshaft engineers have to design one shaft that can handle a huge range of load and RPM conditions and not vibrate the operator right out of his seat. It's a difficult problem.
I too experience a slight vibration/drone around 2000 RPM or so (about 70 MPH in OD), but nothing that shakes the rearview mirror. I just keep telling myself it's normal (which makes me feel better ). Plus, I only have 350 miles on it, and expect some things to even out as they wear in (engine is already getting notably quieter!).
I also have the A/C compressor vibration others have reported. As well as the "thud" when it engages for the first time. I consider the thud to be normal, as I have experienced this in many other cars. It only occurs when I'm at high RPM (such as on the highway), and only when the switch is first depressed (which is when the compression ratio within the compressor is greatest).
If you think about it, driveshaft designers have it tough. The vibration characteristics of any shaft are primarily a function of mass, rotational speed, load, and mass distribution. Any shaft will only be truly balanced at one specific mass, RPM, load, and mass distribution. If we hold mass and RPM constant and change the load (which will change mass distribution), the shaft will vibrate. Some will vibrate more than others, depending on their mass and torsional rigidity. But driveshaft engineers have to design one shaft that can handle a huge range of load and RPM conditions and not vibrate the operator right out of his seat. It's a difficult problem.
Messed with drone vibration issues on Cadillac Brougham every shaft i sent out came back worse then before. On 4 or 5 of these autos ordering a new shaft fixed them. On 1 or 2 of these autos took ordering a 2nd shaft and they were fixed. This was in 1992 and 93. Let me tell you my reps attitude toward this repair. He stated up front that theses autos COULD not be repaired and the customer could live with it or lemon law it. Once told me if we attempted repair he would NOT pay the claims. Anyhow shafts fixed them but NEW ones not re-balancing. This drone/vibration would come in around 68/72 mph and go away above 80.
Mine had a front end vibration. I took it to the dealer and they agreed. After rotating tires and it was still there, they pulled the front driveshaft. Vibration gone, now it has a new shaft and I still think there is a vibration between 75 and 80. Nothing like before though and I cannot complain about the way it feels now. Hopefully it will stay this way. The old shaft had a loose feeling slip joint, I could actually move the shaft up and down in the middle while on the truck. This one is solid.
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