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Anyone had this problem before?
- Thread starter jaynes
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Ahhhhhh. . yu, yu, yu... . I thought this might draw some out of the woodwork... ... 
--><-- this is a smile of enthusiasm, not sarcasm please... . lets kick this cat... . figureatively. .
"... . The hydraulic timing-advance device is built into the distributor pump's underside, at right angles to the pump's longitudinal axis; the timing piston is guided by the pump housing. the housing is sealed by a cover at both sides. On one side of the piston is a fuel inlet bore, on the other side a spring. A sliding block and an actuating pin connect the piston with the roller ring... . "
"... The timig piston is held in it's initial position by a preloaded spring. During operation, fuel pressure in the pump cavity is regulated proportional to the engine speed by the pressure-control valve and the overflow restriction; as a result, the piston side opposite to the spring is under the same pressure,which increases with increasing engine speed... . "
The KSB also has a safety valve function as well.
In the event the internal pressure rises to much (usually when the KSB is "on" and engine RPM is at max rated value) the ksb has a pressure relief value/function which allows the "extra" fuel to return to the tank. This is a function dependant on internal supply pressure.
It must coordinate with the time for the "effective stroke", delivery valves opening and closing, as well as the 'drawback' fuel that the DV pulls back at the very instant of the injection process ( from a big picture point of view)... .
I agree the ksb (mechanical timing control) controls the timing directly but it is, itself, subject to the pressures inside and outside (in the injection line/DV) as well.
Would not the initial timing, that being the pump physical location and the pump pinned value, result in pressure increases above the "normal" pressure at idle, assuming we're comparing a stock pump to a "tuned" pump as above. ??
Next I wonder about this.....
If physical timing is determined by internal pressure, they are mutually dependent then... If the rotation of the cam ring takes place as we agree it does, then the control collars' relative position to the/on the plunger would be held/moved to a longer more "effective stroke" position... . this alters timing and pressure since we are altering the time it takes to complete the full pressurization stroke... no/yes???
Since the time (propagation time) it takes to build pressure high enough to open the DV and subsequently the injector is roughly 1 millisecond (the wave moves at the speed of sound in diesel fuel is 150 m/s) it's not alot of time... . but during the time it takes to close the injector, have the DV perform it's "drawback" of fuel, in advance of the return pressure wave begins to become a factor.
Since there is an overall time lag for pressure building, DV releasing, wave propagation thru the injector line, injector opening, injection process, injector closing, compression of the fuel cloud, combustion of fuel cloud, almost instantaneous DV drawback meeting return pressure wave and then the start of the process all over again for the next injection sequence we need an initial timing advance to provide the correct fuel volume and pressure.
I know that's a run-on sentence... . sorry...
The point being that the injection process needs pressurization sufficient to complete the tasks above in good "time".
There is a variable 'value range' for the supply side pressure, which regulate the high pressure head side... and the initial timing value set using plunger lift (in mm) or degree's in our example AND the mechanical rotation of the pump. no/yes/maybe/darned if we know... ???
In some cases, like mine, the governor spring also plays a part in this since it forces the control collar to maintain a more "effective stroke" longer, this alters the timing process too... .
Jump in here you guys, I need some help and formula is beatin on me here,,, oh and Dave is smilin... oh ya Dave, quit messing with your springs, or you'll go blind... sort of...
Pastor Bob... . caught again in the sacremental wine... .
-->
<-- this is a smile of enthusiasm, not sarcasm please... . lets kick this cat... . figureatively. . "... . The hydraulic timing-advance device is built into the distributor pump's underside, at right angles to the pump's longitudinal axis; the timing piston is guided by the pump housing. the housing is sealed by a cover at both sides. On one side of the piston is a fuel inlet bore, on the other side a spring. A sliding block and an actuating pin connect the piston with the roller ring... . "
"... The timig piston is held in it's initial position by a preloaded spring. During operation, fuel pressure in the pump cavity is regulated proportional to the engine speed by the pressure-control valve and the overflow restriction; as a result, the piston side opposite to the spring is under the same pressure,which increases with increasing engine speed... . "
The KSB also has a safety valve function as well.
In the event the internal pressure rises to much (usually when the KSB is "on" and engine RPM is at max rated value) the ksb has a pressure relief value/function which allows the "extra" fuel to return to the tank. This is a function dependant on internal supply pressure.
It must coordinate with the time for the "effective stroke", delivery valves opening and closing, as well as the 'drawback' fuel that the DV pulls back at the very instant of the injection process ( from a big picture point of view)... .
I agree the ksb (mechanical timing control) controls the timing directly but it is, itself, subject to the pressures inside and outside (in the injection line/DV) as well.
Would not the initial timing, that being the pump physical location and the pump pinned value, result in pressure increases above the "normal" pressure at idle, assuming we're comparing a stock pump to a "tuned" pump as above. ??
Next I wonder about this.....
If physical timing is determined by internal pressure, they are mutually dependent then... If the rotation of the cam ring takes place as we agree it does, then the control collars' relative position to the/on the plunger would be held/moved to a longer more "effective stroke" position... . this alters timing and pressure since we are altering the time it takes to complete the full pressurization stroke... no/yes???
Since the time (propagation time) it takes to build pressure high enough to open the DV and subsequently the injector is roughly 1 millisecond (the wave moves at the speed of sound in diesel fuel is 150 m/s) it's not alot of time... . but during the time it takes to close the injector, have the DV perform it's "drawback" of fuel, in advance of the return pressure wave begins to become a factor.
Since there is an overall time lag for pressure building, DV releasing, wave propagation thru the injector line, injector opening, injection process, injector closing, compression of the fuel cloud, combustion of fuel cloud, almost instantaneous DV drawback meeting return pressure wave and then the start of the process all over again for the next injection sequence we need an initial timing advance to provide the correct fuel volume and pressure.
I know that's a run-on sentence... . sorry...
The point being that the injection process needs pressurization sufficient to complete the tasks above in good "time".
There is a variable 'value range' for the supply side pressure, which regulate the high pressure head side... and the initial timing value set using plunger lift (in mm) or degree's in our example AND the mechanical rotation of the pump. no/yes/maybe/darned if we know... ???
In some cases, like mine, the governor spring also plays a part in this since it forces the control collar to maintain a more "effective stroke" longer, this alters the timing process too... .
Jump in here you guys, I need some help and formula is beatin on me here,,, oh and Dave is smilin... oh ya Dave, quit messing with your springs, or you'll go blind... sort of...
Pastor Bob... . caught again in the sacremental wine... .
Don't want to cause more of an argument, but maybe we are missing the big picture on this particular instance. Jaynes just advanced the pump a month ago. Prolly what happened, maybe, is when he had is loose and moved it then tightened it, the oring being old and prolly hard was unable to keep a good seal. Prolly would have lasted for ever had it not been disturbed. When disturbed then it may have started to fail.
Lots of interesting info going on, and the increased psi may not of helped, but could it be this easy? Just thinking out loud. Deal with a lot of orings on Cat machines. They get pretty hard after years of service but still seal until disturbed.
Michael
Lots of interesting info going on, and the increased psi may not of helped, but could it be this easy? Just thinking out loud. Deal with a lot of orings on Cat machines. They get pretty hard after years of service but still seal until disturbed.
Michael
Ok guys. I'm glad I got us thinking on this one. But fact of the matter is, is that I'm only 21 years old, I've only been exposed to diesels here for about 3-4 years, and I have no idea what so ever what you guys are talking about. If BushWakr and formula could translate some the important technical talk in to "english" , I might be able to understand some things here. I'm trying really hard! MMiller has a good point. That seal might have lasted forever, lest I not had messed with the pump. So I'm still at a loss as to whether or not the physical rotation of the pump actually caused an internal rise in pressure, some way some how. Don't get me wrong, I'm really enjoying this conversation, I'm just having alittle trouble understanding it! Hehe. I will learn what all those words mean one day! They just don't have diesel mechanics at MU :{ , but if they did, I'd be all over it!
jaynes
, I might be able to understand some things here. I'm trying really hard! MMiller has a good point. That seal might have lasted forever, lest I not had messed with the pump. So I'm still at a loss as to whether or not the physical rotation of the pump actually caused an internal rise in pressure, some way some how. Don't get me wrong, I'm really enjoying this conversation, I'm just having alittle trouble understanding it! Hehe. I will learn what all those words mean one day! They just don't have diesel mechanics at MU :{ , but if they did, I'd be all over it!jaynes
"... . Don't want to cause more of an argument... . "
Hey no worries... there is no arguement going on here... it's how we learn and iron out the issue's... . it helps everyone...
I'd like to have some other guys jump in here, including Sean... I'd like his opinion too... it goes to something I'm tinkering with right now...
As for your question jaynes... I don't believe that the simple process of pump rotation did the damage. Formula makes a good point... .
Our pumps have a number of "adjustments" or adjustable components. Each has it's own "safe value" or banding that is acceptable.
If any one of them is on the ragged edge it can translate to "downstream" or "progressive" damage.
Again Sean has made it simple for us here, the increased pressure that can result from a number of things will push that o-ring out. Add to that the fact that they do harden and fail with age and there you have it.
I'm working on something that relates to the timing/pressure issue right now and it seems, at least on the surface, that it's a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" thing ... ... .
Hey hdm48 quit messin with your DV springs you tooob... .
Can't leave a guy alone for 5 minutes without him getting into trouble,,,...
Pastor Bob... O. L. O. A. C.
Hey no worries... there is no arguement going on here... it's how we learn and iron out the issue's... . it helps everyone...
I'd like to have some other guys jump in here, including Sean... I'd like his opinion too... it goes to something I'm tinkering with right now...
As for your question jaynes... I don't believe that the simple process of pump rotation did the damage. Formula makes a good point... .
Our pumps have a number of "adjustments" or adjustable components. Each has it's own "safe value" or banding that is acceptable.
If any one of them is on the ragged edge it can translate to "downstream" or "progressive" damage.
Again Sean has made it simple for us here, the increased pressure that can result from a number of things will push that o-ring out. Add to that the fact that they do harden and fail with age and there you have it.
I'm working on something that relates to the timing/pressure issue right now and it seems, at least on the surface, that it's a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" thing ... ... .
Hey hdm48 quit messin with your DV springs you tooob... .
Can't leave a guy alone for 5 minutes without him getting into trouble,,,...
Pastor Bob... O. L. O. A. C.
Hey Bob, I ain't messin' with my springs behind closed doors.
I was messing with the spring "spacers".
OK, now, with the rotational axis of the earth maintaining a constant, and Einstiens theory of String energy staying in conflict with Quantum mechanics, this "timing" issue has gotten over the edge.
Ok, now, Bob, close yer eyes and imagin a distributer in a gas engine. Now move it either way, advanced or retarded. Did that put a higher load on the coil?
Yes it would,,, oh crud,,, bad example.
How 'bout this,,
OK, if you mount your left front wheel on your truck 180 degrees from where it was, will that put a higher load on the wheel bearings?
We are all in agreement that "internal" pressures, timing, miscelaneous component failures, FOD, stars and planets out of alignment, can couse a blown O ring.
Please note; "we are all in agreement" mentioned in the preceeding paragraph.
But where we seem to fall short is, "the physical position" of the pump as it i mounted to the engine.
What "I" have been talking aboot (like that canadian accent?) is the statement in the last sentence,"the physical location" of the pump as it is mounted to the engine.
Ya see, if the gonkalater armiture is mounted in a non-longitudal manor it wll creat a backlash in the left handed framus. The new and improved version from flyby night industries will compensate for the idiot installing it forwards and he will experience a lung crushing high speed flatulance that may ignite when exposed to oxigen resulting in the expulsion of said mechanic from the structure in which he is working.
OK, now that the druiugs have taken effict, i'LL quit
Dave
I was messing with the spring "spacers".
OK, now, with the rotational axis of the earth maintaining a constant, and Einstiens theory of String energy staying in conflict with Quantum mechanics, this "timing" issue has gotten over the edge.
Ok, now, Bob, close yer eyes and imagin a distributer in a gas engine. Now move it either way, advanced or retarded. Did that put a higher load on the coil?
Yes it would,,, oh crud,,, bad example.
How 'bout this,,
OK, if you mount your left front wheel on your truck 180 degrees from where it was, will that put a higher load on the wheel bearings?
We are all in agreement that "internal" pressures, timing, miscelaneous component failures, FOD, stars and planets out of alignment, can couse a blown O ring.
Please note; "we are all in agreement" mentioned in the preceeding paragraph.
But where we seem to fall short is, "the physical position" of the pump as it i mounted to the engine.
What "I" have been talking aboot (like that canadian accent?) is the statement in the last sentence,"the physical location" of the pump as it is mounted to the engine.
Ya see, if the gonkalater armiture is mounted in a non-longitudal manor it wll creat a backlash in the left handed framus. The new and improved version from flyby night industries will compensate for the idiot installing it forwards and he will experience a lung crushing high speed flatulance that may ignite when exposed to oxigen resulting in the expulsion of said mechanic from the structure in which he is working.
OK, now that the druiugs have taken effict, i'LL quit
Dave
OHhhhhh... . man. . he's peakin again...
Nope, I take Sean's point. The isolated issue of having/moving the pump's position does not in itself alter internal pressure.
I'll take a 5 HP penalty on that one... not only that, I STILL haven't got my decal either.....
HEY, Sean, what sort of scientific discipline to you specialize in????
Ever read Stephan(sp?) Hawkings' "A brief history of time". . ?? good stuff... hey right up your alley Dave...
Seriously though, there seems to be a "loop" in the timing settings/changes and pressure values changes that I'm struggling with a bit.
jaynes, if you want some info on specific terms etc. point them out, we'll all try to help out.
Bob.
Nope, I take Sean's point. The isolated issue of having/moving the pump's position does not in itself alter internal pressure.
I'll take a 5 HP penalty on that one... not only that, I STILL haven't got my decal either.....
HEY, Sean, what sort of scientific discipline to you specialize in????
Ever read Stephan(sp?) Hawkings' "A brief history of time". . ?? good stuff... hey right up your alley Dave...
Seriously though, there seems to be a "loop" in the timing settings/changes and pressure values changes that I'm struggling with a bit.
jaynes, if you want some info on specific terms etc. point them out, we'll all try to help out.
Bob.
"..... and he will experience a lung crushing high speed flatulance... . " 
:-laf
Hey, it's been a loooong couple of days..... I've been out plowing snow for most of the time since friday night. Back at the lab today. Think I'll try to hold off on running any experiments until I catch up on some sleep
Bob, I work in the field of neuroscience research. More specifically, the mechanisms of learning and memory. I'd give more details, but in a public forum that may not be such a good idea. Negative on reading that book. Although I'd like to read more than I usually do, which isn't too much outside of the scientific stuff.
This is an interesting discussion regarding the variables which affect the internal pump pressure. Hopefully I'll get some time tonight to write a better reply.
Cheers,
Sean
:-laf Hey, it's been a loooong couple of days..... I've been out plowing snow for most of the time since friday night. Back at the lab today. Think I'll try to hold off on running any experiments until I catch up on some sleep
Bob, I work in the field of neuroscience research. More specifically, the mechanisms of learning and memory. I'd give more details, but in a public forum that may not be such a good idea. Negative on reading that book. Although I'd like to read more than I usually do, which isn't too much outside of the scientific stuff.
This is an interesting discussion regarding the variables which affect the internal pump pressure. Hopefully I'll get some time tonight to write a better reply.
Cheers,
Sean
Wow. Can you define that term, Bob? Hehe.
I'll have to get back to you on the specific terms. I haven't gotten a chance to look at the internal diagrams of the VE, I think that would explain alot. Although, how they really work might have an impact of how I learn what the part really is, not just the name, get it? hdm48, I was LMAO, that was good stuff. This is all good stuff. I'm listening.
jaynes
"..... Bob, I work in the field of neuroscience research... . "
Darn bud, you got mighty slim pickens in here then... .
Talk about 'room for rent'... ... :-laf :-laf... .
For sale, one brain never used still in box.....
Pastor Bob.
Darn bud, you got mighty slim pickens in here then... .
Talk about 'room for rent'... ... :-laf :-laf... .
For sale, one brain never used still in box.....
Pastor Bob.
we're talking about whether or not advancing the timing on the injection pump could cause an internal rise in pressure. I recently just blew out an o-ring, that's what I brought it up. Now just recenetly, I was told by Bob that advancing the pump wouldn't cause a rise in pressure. But it has brought up some interesting questions and thoughts that have actually turned into quite a little discussion. By the way, I'm advancing my timing again as soon as the weather clears up. They're calling for snow tonight, and rain before hand. 
jaynes
jaynes
Unbelievable
Hey friends, I have to make an observation here.
Only in the TDR could a bunch of nuts start out a discussion about a failed o-ring and end up with a doctorate degree program on the design and engineered functioning of a diesel fuel injection pump.
It may not be hard to do but some of you guys are making me feel pretty stupid. I'm doing my best to keep up. Please keep on dragging me to the ivory tower, kicking and screaming all the way, and I hope I can eek out a passing grade for comprehension. 
But . . . if you all start talking about splitting the diesel fuel atom . . . I'll quit.
Pastor Bob, do we get any rwhp credit at the end? Will there be a test??
Hey friends, I have to make an observation here.
Only in the TDR could a bunch of nuts start out a discussion about a failed o-ring and end up with a doctorate degree program on the design and engineered functioning of a diesel fuel injection pump.
It may not be hard to do but some of you guys are making me feel pretty stupid.
I'm doing my best to keep up. Please keep on dragging me to the ivory tower, kicking and screaming all the way, and I hope I can eek out a passing grade for comprehension. But . . . if you all start talking about splitting the diesel fuel atom . . . I'll quit.
Pastor Bob, do we get any rwhp credit at the end? Will there be a test??
Re: Unbelievable
Well, that sort of happens... ... . but diesel fuel isn't an atom, it is a compound composed of the atoms Hydrogen and Carbon. (hence, it's a "hydrocarbon") It's a mixture of of aliphatic, cyclic, branched and aromatic hydrocarbons. The base constituent being Cetane, which, by definition, is a saturated aliphatic hydrocarbon with the empirical formula C16H34. It is also known as n-cetane and n-hexadecane. Under the purest conditions, the cetane will combine with oxygen in a rapid oxidation reaction (combustion) to form carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O).
Here's some more interesting properties of cetane:
Appearance: colourless liquid
Melting point: 18 C
Boiling point: 287 C
Specific gravity: 0. 773
Vapour pressure: 1 mm Hg at 105 C
Vapour density 7. 8
Flash point: 135 C
Autoignition temperature: 201 C
Man, I'm sorry, but I definitely could not resist that one
Cheers,
Sean
Originally posted by bflood
But . . . if you all start talking about splitting the diesel fuel atom . . . I'll quit.
Well, that sort of happens... ... . but diesel fuel isn't an atom, it is a compound composed of the atoms Hydrogen and Carbon. (hence, it's a "hydrocarbon") It's a mixture of of aliphatic, cyclic, branched and aromatic hydrocarbons. The base constituent being Cetane, which, by definition, is a saturated aliphatic hydrocarbon with the empirical formula C16H34. It is also known as n-cetane and n-hexadecane. Under the purest conditions, the cetane will combine with oxygen in a rapid oxidation reaction (combustion) to form carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O).
Here's some more interesting properties of cetane:
Appearance: colourless liquid
Melting point: 18 C
Boiling point: 287 C
Specific gravity: 0. 773
Vapour pressure: 1 mm Hg at 105 C
Vapour density 7. 8
Flash point: 135 C
Autoignition temperature: 201 C
Man, I'm sorry, but I definitely could not resist that one
Cheers,
Sean
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