Anyone using the paper towel oil filter??

[Gary - K7GLD]

OK Brian yer ON!



Your specifications are ALL agreeable to me, and since I also just changed MY oil several weeks ago, let's just go with what we have? I just returned from a pull with our fiver up to Florence Oregon and back, so already have about 1500 miles on my oil. I use a Wix full flow filter, the rest I've already outlined. My truck is an early '91, as specified in my sig. The TP filter only absorbs less than a quart or so - less than the stock full flow canister holds. My truck currently has over 111,000 miles on it.



My major gripe with Frantz filter bashers (no, YOU didn't particularly bash them) is that NO ONE I've EVER encountered so far who knocked them had the SLIGHTEST first-hand experience with them, only faint rumors and old-wives tales.



And you're RIGHT, this won't be nearly as accurate a "test" as it would be if a before/after test was run on the SAME engine, but what the hey...



So let's start rackin' up those miles, and LET THE CHALLENGE BEGIN!

 

[NVR FNSH]

I'm leaving for Portland, OR on Friday to pick up my Patio Hauler 351F. Will be coming down the Oregon coast on the return trip to Santa Rosa so it won't be too long before I have 5k miles on the oil.



Brian

 

[illflem]

Brian, I wouldn't accept this wager, you are sure to lose, but I think it's too late. If you were running a bypass filter your chances would be fairer, but as I understand it you aren't. Gary needs to bet someone running a bypass, I would still put my money on the TP filter over any other though.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

NAHhhh Illflem - I think a lot of the guys here, and would have no hard feelings if Brian chooses to excuse himself - but you're correct, the deck IS stacked against him!



I don't want to take advantage, and would be just as happy to merely compare lab results with him after 5000 miles or so and let the results be displayed here in public if Brian prefers, leaving the $$$ part out of it - altho I expect mine SHOULD be pretty much like the last one was... It's up to Brian...



I'd much rather be friends than a con artist...

 

[NVR FNSH]

Gary,

I'll accept your gracious offer to limit it to comparing oil analysis numbers I figured that at worst I be out $50 plus a roll of TP. Just gotta make sure it wasn't the last one in the house At best I've got a good reason to due an oil analysis.



I figure I'm the typical owner - no fancy oil filters or synthetics on my truck. I may be switching over to synthetic at the next oil change, maybe.



My biggest hang up with the TP/paper towel set up is controlling the filter media used. How does one spec the TP for this application? How do you dispose of the used element? It's got to be an awful mess.



Brian

 

[Scooby]

OK Dangit,



Are one of you guys going to explain how the TP filter thing works to those of us who are not as well informed? I saw the ad for the hand-towel filter in the magazine and was wondering what the heck they were talking about. How is it that the paper doesn't dissolve and actually foul up the oil?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

NO problem Bryan - I was probably over aggressive with my "challenge" anyway - fact is, there's NO WAY a comparable Cummins WITHOUT a bypass filter will match the lower particle levels of one WITH a bypass filter installed unless there is a serious defect or component failure somewhere. I was planning on sending my next batch of oil out at next change anyway, but being retired, I don't usually rack up the miles as quickly as I did when driving my truck to work daily - the analysis figures I quoted above were based greatly upon short haul, stop and go driving in the local area, so if more longer haul driving was involved, my readings may have been even better!



SO, if I am unable to pile up the miles as quickly as you do, we can use mine above for a preliminary comparison until I DO get 5000 miles or so on my oil for a more current analysis - the one I quoted above was done in February, so it's not all that far in the past... Only consideration might be that mine above was done by Blackstone Labs, and past experience has shown minor variances in sample results done on the SAME drain samples by different labs due to Lab calibration differences and equipment used, so if you choose to use someone OTHER than Blackstone, don't get TOO excited if your readings differ a lot from mine - I can alsways send my next one to the same outfit you choose for a more apples/apples comparison.



NOW, Scooby...



A paper towel, or toilet paper BYPASS filter operates by taking a SMALL percentage of oil flow from the pressure side of an engine's oil supply - my Frantz uses about a 1/16 diameter restriction, so a rather small oil flow. That flow is forced thru a canister holding the paper towel or TP roll in a manner that forces the oil flow LENGTHWIZE thru the filter material - in the case of TP, that's a 4 1/2 inch path thru the length of a tightly packed roll of TP! Obviously, the flow IS restricted, and since it's a BYPASS filter, the actual VOLUME of oil going thru the filter is FAR less that that going thru the OEM full-flow filter. The cleaned oil leaving the bypass filter is returned directly to the crankcase to mix with the oil there, and enters the total system somewhat slowly - at least compared to the primary oil flow. BUT, even when run thru a restrictor, hot oil under pressure DOES get circulated enough to do an EXCELLENT job of catching smaller contaminent particles that easily pass thru the full-flow filter.



AS far as the paper going to pieces in use, paper actually GAINS strength when oil is absorbed, and NO, the small amount of water condensation in oil has no noticeable effect in damaging the paper. Bryan is right to be concerned about the QUALITY and GRADE of TP used, *I* have had best results using tightly wound single ply service rolls like commercial outfits use - restaurants, service stations, etc - the tighter the roll is wound and then installed into the filter canister, the less likely it is to collapse or "channel" in operation. In addition, I have made modifications to mine for even better filtering - but that's ANOTHER story!



As far as disposal of used filters, I burn mine in our woodburning stove we heat our house with - they really aren't as messy as you might think...

 

[Scooby]

Thanks for the reply! Interesting.....

 

[EagleEye]

OK...I'll bite.

The toilet paper sizes were changed a bit back... will this filter fit the 'new' size of toilet paper rolls? I would hate to get one and find that it only fits the 'old' size.



Is there a screen to prevent torn paper or lint from getting mixed into the oil? Kinda leary about the possibility of paper shreads or large lint entering my oil pan.



Did some searching, and looks like this has been around awhile. Just wondering... with the price of filters and the efficiency of them nowadays, and the FUEL that gets beyond the rings and dilutes the oil, is it a good idea to run 'extended' oil changes? I woudn't think so, being oil and filters are cheap. BUT... been looking into bypass filters anyway, and I LIKE WHAT I SEE!!! Can't hurt filtering out all that I can.

 

[dan_gilson]

Mil Spec #

I remember reading a while back that

toilet paper filters had managed to get

a Mil Spec number and was an approved

filtering device for Miltary vehicles.



So, I assume that someone has done

a far amount of testing on this.



It is a non-bypass filter that on it

own loop typically where the input

and output on both on the pan. It has

it own electric pump that slowly pushes

oil through the roll. The oil that comes

out is very clean.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Eagle Eye - not sure about any changes in the size of TP rolls, but I haven't actually measured one recently... BUT, the only critical dimension is the DIAMETER of the roll. which ideally is a tight force-fit into the canister of the filter itself - if the roll happens to be slightly longer or shorter, it merely changes the length of the oil path slightly.



Only other "changes" I have seen in selecting TP for the filter is the current abundance of loosely wound and embossed paper on the market - I feel that the smoother the paper and the tighter it's wound, the better it will perform.



There IS a wire grid at the bottom of the filter that supports the TP roll and keeps the bottom of roll flat to avoid distortion under oil pressure - I've never seen the SLIGHTEST indication of breakdown of the TP material - but I *have* fabricated an additional 100 wire per inch mesh screen that sets on top of the standard screen, THEN I cut out several layers of coffee filter material that sets on top of THAT, and immediately next to the bottom of the TP roll as extra assurance that most smaller stuff will be stopped ther before it gets back into the oil pan. I undoubtedly don't NEED it, just extra insurance...



*I* feel no problem with extended oil changes while using a bypass filter - the oil will be physically CLEAN, but ya gotta be aware of OTHER potential oil problems, such as fuel dilution you mention - the filter will keep the fuel-diluted oil CLEAN, but it sure wont do as good a lube job as 100% oil will! Same goes for OTHER harmfull combustion byproducts and normal oil breakdown - it may be kept CLEAN, but not a very good lubricant...

 

[Extreme1]

Re: Me

Originally posted by ol ron

"The sky is falling, the sky is falling" ? Your obvious disregard for reasonable prudence and lack of an intelligent response to a very serious concern for those of us whom are not "our own warranty station" is disconcerting. "

Chill out Ron (don't be disconcerted), it was intended to be "obviously unintelligent" (to paraphrase you)



I have that line in my signature because it's true. I have paid (literally) for the shortcomings of a new model that is out of warrantee. I accept that freely. I also accept that whatever modifications I make to my truck are my responsibility. For that reason I research potential changes and make modifications based on my research. I then post the results here for others to utilize if they choose.



What I find disconcerting are the posts of guys who remove their mods to go visit the dealer.

Originally posted by ol ron

"YOU don't care what the manufacturer says about the proper care of their product. YOU are much more intelligent than Cummins, Dodge, hell, the whole manufacturing community!. "

You got all that from 4 sentences? Didn't I see you on late night TV offering to read tarot cards? Ironically, I am part of the manufacturing community. I am sure you will have some flame for me about that as you are obviously superior.

Originally posted by ol ron

"Your cavalier attitude is counter to the factual and informative information regarding performance and maintenance which many many new TDR members expect from this investment and this web site. . "

I disagree. It's not all seriousness and bad news Ron, don't you ever make jokes? I don't think I am the first one to try.

Originally posted by ol ron

"FACT: any oil filter not listed in the TSB is cause for exclusion of warranty when damage caused by oiling failure is evident. "

I never stated anything to the contrary. Here is a little NEWSFLASH for you Ron (and everyone else), any oiling failure caused by a non-Cummins part or oil is cause for exclusion of warrantee. If the manufacturer can show that they are NOT liable for major repairs, do you think they will fork out the dough just to be good guys? Read your owner's manual!



If you remember back to the early 80s, Quaker State had a large batch of bad oil make it to the consumer. Quaker State paid for a lot of engine repairs - not the manufacturers!

Originally posted by ol ron

"What the hell is so difficult for you to understand. What is wrong with any of the filters listed?"

Reread my original post. You tell me O' Great One.

Originally posted by ol ron

Get a life!

I will if you will!



The TSB released from Cummins was in the wake of some Fram oil filter failures. (I'm not whipping Fram for fun, this is real. ) It seems that the sealant used (a silicone type material) is getting through and causing the problem. As Fram makes filters for several other retailers, the list was generated.



Back to the topic of this thread, as stated above, these bypass filters have been used successfully for DECADES! (Wow, Gary and I are agreeing on an oil related topic!) However, as printed in a previous TDR (and all of you have bought and read all of them, right?) Cummins Engine Co. does not recommend a bypass filter for the B5. 9 engine.



Personally, I have chosen to use a bypass filter. As a fellow Dittohead Ron, I thought you could grasp that we all have the right to make our own choices.



Ron, I appreciate the seriousness of this situation and applaud your attention and concern with regards to the new members. But I think the point was made on the OTHER post which dealt with the list specifically. As this was a post discussing bypass filters, I thought your point was a touch overzealous.



Sorry to be so long winded and off topic, but, damn!

 

[EagleEye]

Wow!!!

Very well put Extreme1. People take things WAY to seriously, but I am thankful for the input from ALL!!! Just can't be too 'thin skinned' in life, ya know.



Just looking for info on this, may go this route. I was going to do something like this anyway.



NO, I am not an Automotive Engineer, but I do have enough sense to pour piss out of a boot. There are modifications that I try on my truck, and some I won't consider (Rancho 9000's come to mind, MUCH better than the P. O. S. shocks the 'AUTOMOTIVE ENGINEERS' put on my truck).



So keep the discussion going for the benifit of all... some will try, some won't, but if you feel that strongly against something, be prepared for a bit of a 'razzing' and don't take it to heart!!!

 

[DEZLPWR]

Got TP??

Gary,

I'm going to see if I can find a bumper sticker for you that says this to put on your truck.

This is too funny!

I have been reading all of the posts on this thread and I have been laughing my a$$ off.

I am amazed that something like TP would be used to filter oil!



I learn somrthing new every day.....

 

[Midnite]

I've been thinking about getting a Gulf Coast Filter setup, and they seem to recommend their unit that uses a paper towel roll for our engines, not the one that uses a toilet paper roll.



Anyone used their filter setups? My main concern is paper fibers getting loose and into the smaller oil passages in the engine and clogging things up.



The reason I'm worrying about this is because I ran this past a gentleman who works at Chevron, and here's the relevant part of his response:



"If you are interested in a bypass filter, I would not use one that uses a roll of paper towels as the filtering media. Paper filter elements use

resin coated paper. This prevents the element from swelling when contacted with water and also prevents lint (paper fibers) from coming loose and being fed into the engine. Years ago there was a company that used rolls of toilet paper as the filtering element. I once read a report from General Motors where the lint got into hydraulic valve lifters and fouled them up. "



Granted, this individual works in the Fuels Technology Team at Chevron's Product Engineering, so lubrication issues may not be his specialty--however, the lint issue is something I've never seen addressed in any thread here, nor on any bypass filter website (other than Gary's note in this thread that he's never seen any lint, and his description of "just in case" efforts to limit this possibility).



Does anyone have any insight on the possibility of lint fibers getting into the engine? Anyone using the GCF setups?



Thanks,

Mike

 

[EagleEye]

Paper is a good filter!!!

We use paper in whats called an 'oil press' for cleaning power distribution transformer oil. 230,000 volts is nothing to play with, and it cleans the oil EXCELLENT.



Imagine the problems and explosion hazard of not having 'clean' oil in a transformer case. I've seen just the bushings go... and if anyone were around within a 100yd radius, they'd been 'blue flamed'. The paper also absorbs any excess water vapor present.



So... I do like the idea of 'toilet paper' filtering as long as fibers are prevented from blocking ports.



Just one of those things to make ya think!!!

 

[RKohn]

Barry,



Sent you an e-mail, but... .



No reply.



Still have any filters?



I'd like a single roll model, maybe even 2 of them.



Rick

 

[Tom W]

I sold Frantz filters back in the early sixtys and they were pretty impressive. I had one on my '60 VW, I used RPM Delo non detergent oil because it didn't turn black as did the ashless detergent oils. I would pull out the dip stick and the oil would be a clear honey color. I put over a 100K miles and never had to change the oil, just changed the filter and added a quart every three or four thousand miles. I had many satisfied customers who were quite happy with it. I had a demo machine which consisted of a filter, a pump, and a glass container with a light bulb. I would squirt some carbon black into the oil and in a few minutes it would all get filtered out. It would also remove water from the oil, I could pour a small glass of water in the oil and stir it so the water would be sucked into the filter. The paper would absorb the water and not allow it to pass thru.

Because this is a bypass filter and becomes plugged up and no oil goes thru there is no damage.

The only disadvantage as I see it is you have additional lines and fittings that are leak potential. This is true of all bypass filters.



PS At that time the filters were $35. 00 plus $5. 00 for installation.

 

[C Schomer]

I,m with Gary. I used to change them on my dads trucks in the 60's and remember how clean they kept the oil. I was about to buy a Frantz but got the Oil Guard when they went on sale. I was a little worried about finding the right size paper. I think Frantz still made their own paper for them. FWIW, the old guy who took over making the Frantz filters(who passed away) and preventing their extinction also sold Amsoil products and their bypass filters. Guess which brand he said was better... Frantz! George gave me a Fort James TP# before he died that was the right size but I tossed it when I got the oilguard. I think he said the roll needs to be 1. 5" ID. Most of them are 1. 625" now. I was also worried about the TP's now days being made to break down faster. Craig

 

[Barry]

Rkohn: I have not been to the office since Friday so if you sent me an email, I'll get it when I go in this morning... ..... and YES, I have plenty of Frantz filters... ..... about half a pick-up load..... all sizes... ... CHEAP!