Arbitration Works

[MChilds]

A couple of months ago I posted a problem I was having with shudder and vibration in my 2001 3500 2WD 6-spd. I received a lot of suggestions from TDR members and I tried every one of them without success. I filed for arbitration and got some action from DC. They set me up at a dealer who put over 600 miles on the truck trying to fix it until they called in a Chrysler tech to say it was just a characteristic of the truck, presumably to get out of any further warranty obligations.



The good news is that the arbitrator didn’t buy Chrysler’s standard answer and ruled in my favor after feeling the problem on a short test drive.



I have a choice now between a 2002 2WD or move up to a 4WD by paying the difference. I was wondering if anyone has experience between the 3500 2WD and 4WD as far as driveline shudder and towing; I tow a 13,000-gooseneck trailer. Any help would be appreciated; I don’t want to go through this again.



Thanks.

 

[Runaway]

What range was shudder in???

Congrats on resolving your issue. HOWEVER,



Many of us are experiencing a shudder while towing, empty, etc in the rpm range between 1700 - 1900 range in high gear. Some of us are worse than others. Could you please elaborate more on your shudder?

 

[MChilds]

Arbitration Rules

My shudder was a definite driveshaft alignment problem. Not the angles, but the parallels between the two shafts. It didn’t seem to matter what position the bed was in, loaded or unloaded height which I could adjust with the air bags Dodge told me I needed. Shimming the rear end and/or the center support bearing failed to fix it as did a new driveshaft and a set of wheels off a shudder-free truck, among other things.



My shudder was pronounced side to side at about 45-49MPH and again at 68-74MPH (3. 55 rear axle ratio) and was worse when towing my trailer, a 13,000 Lb gooseneck. I’m pretty sure DC knows about it and prefers to deny it because they can’t fix it. Interestingly, it doesn’t seem to be a fleet wide problem; a friend of mine has the exact same truck and his is slick. Your signature doesn’t indicate whether your truck is a 3500 or not and I would be interested in that since I elected to have DC give me a new truck and I can pick between a 2WD and 4WD 3500.

 

[RJOL]

The choice between a 2WD and 4X4 really comes down to a personal decision. If you don't go off-road, and you live in an area where you would rarely use a 4X4, you should probably stick with a 2WD. It is cheaper, has less things that could break and maintain, and has more GVW capacity. Everything being equal, it should have less potential for shudder and/or vibration as the drive system/suspension is a lot simpler. Just my $. 02... .

 

[Runaway]

Trucks a 2500

w/snow plow package, 4x4 and a ton of other options for creature comfort. Personally, if I had to do it over again, I'd go with a 2wd. The truck is too long to take off road and too high for a majority of 5vers. I only use my 4x4 to get me out of places where I shouldn't of been in the first place.



Your shudder is definitely different from the rest of us.



But RJOL is correct, 2WD or 4WD is a personal choice. Good luck with your decision.

 

[hcpBILL]

No shudder

Mine does not shudder. I am real curious if anyone wants to claim they know exactly what causes the shudder. It is strange that DC said they can't fix it. The fix must cost less than the difference between a new truck and the old one. My guess is they take it back and fix it, then sell it again. I think the lemon law would prevent them from just selling it as is. (at least I would hope so!)

This is strange.



Bill



'00 3500 2wd ETC DEE Patriot Blue

 

[SnoKing]

MChilds

Would you believe that GM is replacing two piece drive lines in the Duramaxi's with an one piece unit to solve a very similar situation. Told one of my buddies about the post on the Gm 6. 2-6. 5 forum and he printed it out and took it to his dealer that used it to order the new parts for his truck.



Check this post:

http://www.62-65-dieselpage.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001988.html



SNOKING

 

[mikel]

Not sure if it's the same...

On my truck if it's loaded heavy it will "wiggle" around on takeoff and in the first few gears. Kinda feels like the axle is trying to move left-to-right in the back instead of staying put. It does not do this empty, and when I crawled under it loaded it looked like the drive shaft was not in line from front to back. The angle from the transmission to the center bearing was much different than the angle from the center bearing to the rear axle.



Mine only does it (that I can feel) from a stop and only with a load. It doesn't matter on mine if it's a pallet of grass in the bed or a gooseneck trailer, if there is alot of weight on the truck it's gonna wiggle around on takeoff...



I thought it was odd that my '99 with an auto and one piece driveshaft didn't do any of this, although it had plenty of other problems.



I wonder if somebody had a custom one-piece driveshaft made up (if it's even possible on these trucks) if that would fix the problem... .



Later,

Mike

 

[MChilds]

Now we’re getting somewhere…

Bill; From everything I’ve been able to gather between a drive shaft shop I took my truck to and Chrysler’s techs speaking on condition of anonymity, it’s the parallels that are off between the front and rear shafts as opposed to excessive angles. DC tries to fix it by shimming the carrier bearing down and rotating the rear pinion up or down with leaf spring shims. They did that over a period of 21 days and 600-miles with mine and couldn’t fix it but they did change the launch shudder by making it worse. The post by Snowking is interesting in that the GM owners are experiencing the same problem and fixing it with a 1-piece driveshaft.



As far as the Lemon Law, the Lemon Law statute loosely governs arbitration but I’m not sure if DC has to disclose a repurchased vehicle as a result of arbitration; that’s an interesting question. Buyer beware, I guess.

 

[MChilds]

GM too? Geez.

Snowking; That’s a real interesting post. I guess my question is how long can a 1-piece driveshaft by made and still work? Here is a link to a driveshaft shop that works primarily on Jeeps but may be able to supply that answer: http://www.4xshaft.com/



If my new truck shudders I'll probably try the 1-piece route if I can.

 

[MChilds]

I think they all do it...

Mike; It sounds like you have the same problem at least as it relates to launch shudder. I do think I may have stumbled across a common denominator though and that is the way the fifth wheel hitch is mounted. On mine, it is the typical plates that mount to the bed with L-brackets attached to the frame. Chrysler tried to say it was that type of mounting that caused the problem (even though mine shuddered without the trailer attached) and while I don’t think it causes the shudder, it may cause you to feel it in the cab more. Just a guess as it really doesn't make a lot of sense.



Although, it ooks like from those that have responded to this thread and have the turnover ball type that doesn’t attach to the bed at all, don’t complain about the shudder as well as those that bumper pull or don’t pull a heavy trailer at all. My opinion is that they all shudder to some extent because of the driveshaft design; some of us just feel it more and it may be the hitch mounting.



My truck, like yours exhibited the shudder beginning with 500 Lbs in the bed and got worse as the weight increased even when I used the air bags to keep the be height the same.



I guess my question to you is how is your hitch mounted?

 

[Lsfarm]

4x4 Bed Height

MChilds: Since you tow a 5ver, I'd check to see how much higher the bed will be on a 4x4. It may be an issue with your trailer. There is a TSB out for lowering the rear of the truck to level the bed for towing.



Otherwise, I prefer a 4x4, simply because you can get stuck on level ground when towing a load, just add an overnight rain and either soft ground, or slippery wet clay under the wheels.



I use my truck around the farm, and even on level ground with damp grass from an overnight dew, I sometimes have to use 4x4 to move a hay wagon or other piece of equipement.



I'm sure glad you got a positive resolution to your lemon truck!!



Best of luck! Greg L

 

[MChilds]

I say 4X4's for all...

Thanks Greg; I read the TSB but other than bottom of trailer to top of bed rail clearance like when going into or out of steep inclines, I’ll be OK. My gooseneck has another 6” of adjustment and if I remember, the 4X4 is about 5” higher in the back. (I’ve had two 4X4 2500’s before this current truck)



I’m with you on the 4X4. I got stuck this year with the 2WD even with limited slip and the muddy adventure just before a 2500-mile trip was something I would rather not deal with again if I don’t have too. There is also a steep hill on my road and I’ve had the wheels slip in the rain on the way up pulling the trailer so a 4X4 fits the bill.



I though the arbitration process was fair and was surprised at the open-mindedness of the arbitrator. It does require persistence and resolve, as it will take every bit of 4-months from start to finish, with another 30-days before DC has to comply with the order. If they drag it out much longer, there may not be a 2002 available; now there’s a thought.



My advice on arbitration is to read your states Lemon Law statutes (they are used as a guideline) and not get the case dismissed on a technicality.

 

[SnoKing]

MChilds:

The GM replacement one piece drive line uses an Aluminum tube!!! Go figure, less mass etc. I think the issue is that the transmission output and differenial input are on the same/similar plane, when they add the carrier bearing in the middle the planes get screw up. I would print out the GM info and take it into the DC folks, maybe they could learn something. Snoking

 

[MChilds]

Hmmmmm...

Snoking, what you’re calling the planes, the driveshaft shop and DC call the parallels. And you’re right, the relationship between the way the shaft angles toward the center support bearing coming from the transmission and then the angle that the rear shaft departs the CCB does screw up the parallels.



It seems so simple when you think about it; just shim the shafts straight or straighter and presto, shudder gone. Anybody that has ever lifted a Jeep or 4X4 has been through that. With this truck however (and I think some other 3500’s), no matter what DC did as to shimming never helped. Weird. Weird enough that the arbitrator made DC buy me a new truck because he felt the problem on a short test-drive. Shakes your butt side-to-side.



The driveshaft shop here as well as DC told me that a one-piece would be too long and cause a lot of noise and vibration problems. There is a DC TSB to replace a two-piece with a one piece on the 96 club cabs with a short bed for just the same problem; just not the long beds. I wonder if the aluminum shaft is how GM came up with a way to actually get away with it on a long bed. Interesting.

 

[mikel]

Hitch mount

MChilds,



My gooseneck hitch mounts to the frame with bolts through preexisting holes. It does not touch the bed in any way.



I think what I'm feeling is due to the height of the rear of the truck changing causing the angles of the two pieces of the driveshaft to change. I say this because it doesn't matter if I have the gooseneck hooked up, or just alot of weight in the bed, I still get the "shudder/wiggle". It will not do it with just the trailer hooked up, I don't think the trailer by itself has enough hitch weight, there has to be a load on the trailer that mashes the back of the truck down. I just chalk it up as a characteristic of this truck and don't worry about it too much since it goes away as soon as I unload the truck and the rear end rises back up to normal height thus restoring the driveshaft angles. If I towed allot I'd go see a shop that makes their bread and butter off drivetrain problems and see what they had to say. I'd load the truck down so the condition could be duplicated and let the pros take a look. It's probably alot easier and cheaper (in lost time and frustration anyway) to pay a driveshaft specialist to fix the issue than to fight with DC over it.





Interesting topic, I'm quite curious to see where this goes.



Mike

 

[MChilds]

Hitch Mount

Mike; Does yours shudder just when launching or does it also seem like a bad tire with a sideways shudder when you are driving? Mine had a launch shudder and a sideways continuous shudder that was pretty intolerable while driving at highway speeds. The launch shudder in reverse, no matter how you let the clutch out or combination of clutch, RPM, slippage, etc. would sometimes be violent enough that I thought it was going to disassemble the truck. I’ve driven many miles in ‘big trucks’ and to say the least, clutching them with a load took finesse so I’m pretty sure that the reverse bucking was the truck more than it was me.



Anyway, there wasn’t a height I could adjust the bed of the truck to with the air bags that would eliminate the highway shudder, loaded or unloaded but I could get it to help the launch shudder a little; just not fix it. At least with my truck, nothing anybody did really changed anything, which I guess is why I’m getting a replacement.



Is your hitch the turnoverball?



Mike

 

[mikel]

Hitch

My hitch is homemade, but the ball screws down into it and can be removed to leave the bed flat with only a 3 or 4 inch hole right over where the ball fits. I liked the turnover style hitch, so I incorporated that idea into mine when I made it.



On my truck I didn't notice anything other than the launch shudder, and I know that it didn't do anything odd backing the loaded gooseneck up my driveway as I would have definately noticed that while trying not to hit the house. :--)



It sounds like whatever was going wrong with your truck was much worse than what mine is doing since I don't have any high speed nonsense to deal with (Thankfully). I'm sure that the issue that makes mine shudder on launch still exists and may even be shaking my truck at freeway speeds, but I never felt it so maybe it has something to do with the tremendous torque that is going through the driveline at launch. I dunno, but I'm hopeful that it won't get any where near as bad as what you had to deal with.



It's pretty sad too, this is the ONLY complaint that I have had with this truck...





Mike

 

[MChilds]

Sad indeed.

That's a good way to describe it; sad that it exists and sad that DC made me jump through hoops to come to a reasonable solution. This is my 4th Dodge truck after being a loyal Ford owner since 1972 but I'm here to tell you; brand loyalty means nothing to DC so if you have a problem you might as well save your breath (as it pertains to how they should treat a loyal customer) for more meaningful conversation.



Bottom line is like you, I really like my truck and the shudder was the only real complaint I had with the truck. I hope the next one is shudderless...



I'll probalby use a hitch like yours that doesn't depend on the bed. Much better idea.



Mike

 

[bigbrassmonkey]

I have a customer who is the factory rep for the area dealers, he said the truck will be parted out or crushed if determined to be a liability