Are all Diesel Fuels the Same?

[Champane Flight]

Shrimpy has it right on all counts. I work for a piepline company that blends fuels for northern climates. Most fuels are blended by the refinery. Our #2 has a flashpoint of 138'F to 148'F in the winter months and 150'F to 170'F in the summer. We add 1. 25 gallons of Paraflow 527 per 1000bbls of each reciept. We have a quality assurance program that requires us to test for flash/cloud/and gravity on each receipt and retain samples from each takeoff. We also retain post tankage samples and test as same.

Our straight#2 diesel has a cloudpoint of -10 to-15. Our premium diesel has a extra additive package and is good to -20 to -25.

Some customers from colder climates in our area will custom blend their fuel to their climate. This is done by the carrier(truck) at the rack and is usually 70/30 or 75/25.
To make it short. if you live in a colder climate you are probably getting blended fuel.

I use a regular diesel with 50ml of Amzoil Cetane booster in every other tank. I have not had any problems down to -30'.

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95 Dodge 2500 Luverne grill guard,headache rack,running boards and Amzoiled. Soon to be mildly bombed. 84 Dodge d-150, 318 Hooker headers,Edelbrok intake,mallory ignition,Carter Afb,Accel coil,and Custom dual exhaust. Boat,fifthwheel,motorcycles,and shop,job to support toys. Yuck...

 

[Champane Flight]

Patriot,we do not have high sulfer tankage and do inject red dye for off highway diesel. We inject 2. 34 gallons of dye per 1000bbls. This is done at the truck rack by computer controlled injection packs. We also have clear plastic in load arms to check for injection or non-injection. It is the same fuel at our rack except for the dye.

However some terminals do sell high sulfer dyed fuel. If you get busted running red dyed diesel down the road,it can mean a hefty fine. I have heard however(from IRS man)that they are under staffed and have a hard time getting out to check for violations. It would be my luck to be the only truck checked in a 100 mile radius!

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95 Dodge 2500 Luverne grill guard,headache rack,running boards and Amzoiled. Soon to be mildly bombed. 84 Dodge d-150, 318 Hooker headers,Edelbrok intake,mallory ignition,Carter Afb,Accel coil,and Custom dual exhaust. Boat,fifthwheel,motorcycles,and shop,job to support toys. Yuck...

 

[illflem]

Champ,what I've heard is that they need to take a sample for the percent of dyed fuel you have in the tank,they can't assume it's 100%,you know how the dye can hang in there. If you fight the ticket the IRS guys have to show up in court with the percent from the sample,which they probably don't do nor keep. The guy who delivers my Ag fuel told me about this and said that of the few people he knows who got caught and who have gone to court all have had the ticket dropped because the IRS doesn't show up. They just bet on the fact that most people won't fight it.

 

[Champane Flight]

You are probably right bill. All my contacts say that they check mostly comercial vehicles. And I do believe it has to have a dye concentrate minumum of ?ppm to be in violation. I will check with my local IRS rep that comes once a month to the terminal.

Did you know that they(the goverment)has a fingerprint(chemical Layout) of all Diesel in the US?That means from one sample they can tell you exactly where it was refined and what area it was bought.

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95 Dodge 2500 Luverne grill guard,headache rack,running boards and Amzoiled. Soon to be mildly bombed. 84 Dodge d-150, 318 Hooker headers,Edelbrok intake,mallory ignition,Carter Afb,Accel coil,and Custom dual exhaust. Boat,fifthwheel,motorcycles,and shop,job to support toys. Yuck...

 

[The patriot]

I have heard that about the % of dyed fuel, and about the chemical fingerprinting of fuels at the terminal.
The guy I know that delivers fuel (he delivers #6 fuel) tells me that the IRS likes to hang out at the terminal and dip the trucks tanks there. My guess is he has a quota to meet, and could get it dont fast there, so that he can get back to spanking his monkey. #ad

Thanks for all the good info guys. This is a good and informative thread.
Eric

 

[illflem]

Champ,I read where they were going to do the fingerprinting because diesel plus ammonium nitrate fertilizer makes such an excellent explosive. Ammonium nitrate fertilizer used to be the one of choice in my parts because the per pound price of nitrogen was the lowest by far. Now in order to get you have to fill out so many forms it's almost like you're buying a Saturday night special,no one uses it any more.

 

[Champane Flight]

The IRS guy that comes to our terminal covers the whole eastern slope of Colo. He just takes a sample of a red dye compartment on a loaded truck and picks up our monthly sales numbers. Some days he has to wait for awhile for a truck to come in to load red diesel. We also test for red dye PPM once a week to insure we are injecting the right amount. The handling,injecting,and testing is a pain in the bu++. You get a little of this stuff on your clothes or person and it continues to grow. Had one of my co-workers catch a good splash when we were bleeding the injection system. It took weeks to get it off of his face. We started calling him Red!

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95 Dodge 2500 Luverne grill guard,headache rack,running boards and Amzoiled. Soon to be mildly bombed. 84 Dodge d-150, 318 Hooker headers,Edelbrok intake,mallory ignition,Carter Afb,Accel coil,and Custom dual exhaust. Boat,fifthwheel,motorcycles,and shop,job to support toys. Yuck...

 

[The patriot]

I guess I should be glad I work with pentane, and styrene. #ad
#ad

Both of these give me a headache of major proportions whan I catch a good whif, but no stains anyway. #ad

Eric

 

[Champane Flight]

Yeap,I work with a little pentane also. Use it for oil stain test on Propane. It is kinda nasty. Our #1 diesel runs at 110'F to 130'F flash and 41. 0 to 44. 0 gravity at 60'. Our # 2 diesel is 132'F to 170'F flash and 32. 0 to 38. 0 gravity. All depending on the season. Your #1 is a hotter fuel and lighter.

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95 Dodge 2500 Luverne grill guard,headache rack,running boards and Amzoiled. Soon to be mildly bombed. 84 Dodge d-150, 318 Hooker headers,Edelbrok intake,mallory ignition,Carter Afb,Accel coil,and Custom dual exhaust. Boat,fifthwheel,motorcycles,and shop,job to support toys. Yuck...

 

[DBR]

Champane Flight and Shrimpy have hit the nail right on the head. I, myself,work for a major brand refiner in the Pacific Northwest, actually the same parent companies as Shrimpy. I spent 10 years in operations (Hydrogen Treating and Catalyst Reforming Units), processing Diesel / Jet and gasoline blending stocks before jumping ship to maintenance. The refinery where I am employed also has a major truck loading terminal for road fuels and suppliesmany different brands (as do many other refiners). The loading terminal carries brand specific bulk additives which are added to the base fuel product being loaded to make brand x,y,z and so on. The fact is that refiners go to great pains to refine to the federal and state specs, as going over spec costs more and returns less profit. I have no problem with using other brand fuels, I am more concerned as to where I buy the fuel rather than what brand it is. I am more worried about the quality of the stations' fuel storage and turnover, which is why I buy at major brand stations. I look at choosing fuel like choosing a beverage... is one actually better than the other? Its just a matter of taste. Oh, just in case my employer is reading this, our fuel is the best and our additives are far superior as well!!!!

 

[Paul Somers]

A fellow in my camping club that works at a fuel distributions point claims every oil company gets from the same pipe line. They ship out one order and then seperate the next order with water. Supposely the water is easily taken back out. Different oil company does their own additivies.

 

[Brian Cobb]

So what about red or green diesel. When I'm filling up at some stations, it says high sulfur farm fuel(off road) red or low sulfur (on the road) green. Is there a difference ?



Brian Cobb

 

[Alan Reagan]

Brian, there is a difference between the high sulfur allowed for farm equipment and the fuel sold for highway use. It is in fact the sulfur content. Highway fuel is low sulfur.



As far as the pipeline being the same: There are only a couple of pipeline companies in the US. I worked for Standard Transpipe while in college. They were serviced by Plantation Pipeline. Plantation was the common carrier. Anyway, they don't use water to separate batches. Liquid under pressure acts as a solid. Therefore, the 'batches' can be put in back to back with very little mixture. Different refineries will ship all of their fuel/gasoling products through the same line, usually at 1000 barrels (42,000 gallons) per hour. Dye/Magnetic markers are placed between batches for more accurate switching at remote locations. Once the magnetic marker is detected, the new destination valve is opened on the old destination closed by remote control. Then a terminal operator is given the heads up that the switch is on the way and he will begin to pull samples until he sees the dye marker and he will switch to the appropriate destination tank. This way they can ship Hi/Low Sulphur Diesel, Super Unleaded, Unleaded, Kerosene, Jet Fuel and whatever else through the same pipeline. They don't use water because of the disposal problems when they "pull the tank bottom".



Are diesel fuels different? Yes. Changing stations can yield up to 2 mpg difference in mileage based on the quality of the fuel. Don't believe it? Shop around and keep track of your mileage. Quality depends on the refining process and storage time. Bad fuel can be bad because of its low Cetane rating as well as contamination.

 

[Champane Flight]

Many companies

There are many,many pipeline companys in the US. I happen to work for one. We operate two pipelines over a 400 mile region. One of the lines is a six inch and carrys Natural gas liquids. The other is a products line 8" and 12". The rate or Barrels Per Hour on any line depends on the size,hydraulics(amount of alltitude gained) and the amount of pump stations on the line.

Our products line can run(on a good day with a tail wind Ha)2200 BPH.



We ship Gasoline,diesel,turbine fuel,Av gas,and propane down the same line. This is not separated by anything. We call product switchs on the gravity breaks(each product has a different specific gravity). There is a certain amount of buffer or slop,this is usally thrown in UL tank or a slop tank.



We run both lines 24/7 and maintain 36 pump stations. It is not a job for the faint of heart,four more years and I can get the hell out.

 

[Alan Reagan]

We always used specific gravity measurements, especially on Jet Fuel to know when there was no mix in it. That might be the way all detection is done now. It's been a while since I've been on the pipeline.



But on the Sulfur/low Sulphur..... be careful. Get caught with red fuel in your tank and you will pay the big bucks. Louisianna checks. Here in Georgia, they will check your truck in a minute if you are hauling farm equipment. Don't take the chance. It will run in your engine but it's not worth the risk from the tax man.

 

[Alan Reagan]

Shrimpy, Good post on the pipeline/terminal mix. We've had another one going on the high/low sulphur along the same lines. I used to work for Standard Transpipe's storage facility in Macon, GA. We were on the recieving end of the Shell fuel pumped out of Baton Rouge, LA.



As far as the #1/#2 I believe that the number 2 has produces more BTU than #1 or gasoline by volume (not by weight). In other words you get 19K BTU in a lb of #2 and 20K BTU in a pound of gasoline. However, when done by volume, you get 137K BTU/gallon #2 and 128K BTU gallon of gasoline. Kerosene falls between.



For the straight scoop on the differences of #1 and #2



http://209.52.183.182/Generator/diesel_v_kerosene.htm

 

[Alan Reagan]

#2 delivers more BTU by volume than #1, kerosene, and gasoline. If you do it by weight, then that statement is reversed . Also, the lubrication ability of the #2 is greater than #1 or kerosene. Kerosene and #1 are similar but not the same. Put in #1 and watch your mileage go down. That's what happens with the winter blend.



Diesel fuels are classified 1D, 2D, and 4D. Low speed, stationary units use 4D fuels. 4D fuel is not appropriate for most mobile equipment. On-highway and mobile equipment use 1D and 2D fuels. High speed diesel engines use either 1D or 2D fuels. Important characteristics of diesel fuels are its viscosity, pour point, and cetane number. The primary differences between 1D and 2D fuel are the pour point and the viscosity. Pour point is the lowest temperature at which a liquid will flow. Viscosity is the resistance of a liquid to flow. A 1D fuel is designed for cold weather operation; thus, it is less viscous and has a lower pour point. A 2D fuel is used in warmer weather because it has a higher viscosity and pour point. The higher viscosity provides better lubrication qualities for the moving parts of the fuel injection system. Because 2D fuels contain more Btu's (British thermal units - the amount of heat necessary to raise one (1) pound of water one (1) degree fahrenheit) per gallon, they are able to deliver more power per gallon. This is critical to diesel engine fuel economy. The higher the Btu rating a diesel fuel has, the greater power yield per gallon; thus, higher mpg will result. Cetane rating is the diesel equivalent to gasoline's octane rating. Unlike an octane rating, which rates gasoline's resistance to spontaneous ignition, the cetane rating number (usually 40 to 55 for medium to high speed engines) notes the relative ease with which diesel fuel ignites. The higher the cetane number, the easier the fuel ignites; the higher the octane number, the more resistant the fuel is to ignition. Each manufacturer usually specifies a minimum or maximum cetane rating and the suggested operating temperature for 1D and 2D fuels. A given fuel may meet 1D or 2D specifications, but if the Btu rating is too low, then decreased fuel mpg will result.