Are the 03 HPCR systems EXTINCT already?

[TheWolf]

I am supprised that this question has not been mentioned before. Maybe becuse no one knew what all was different wtih the engine.







I am curious as to what will happen to all of our engines now that the new '600' is coming out. To me, It seems as though we may have trouble doing things to our engines a little ways down the road because our "new" engine was inly new for about 1 1/2 years.



I do not know what all is changing on the new "600" engines, and I am sure not everybosy here does yet either, but what do you think?



electronilcally controlled turbo/wastegate or whatever it was , different design on the intake? different valves? and other stuff. I do not know the differences. But how are we to have things done to our engines? What if for some reason something happens and you need to replace some eninge parts under warranty, how readilly available are the parts going to be for an engine they only decided to produce for 1 1/2 years. I know the change is more than just ecm upgrade.



All the aftermarket will probably have to start over with their boxes and such. ( I hope I am wrong here!) Are the injectors going to be different or controlled different? If they are then we will not have very much to work with, because what company is going to R&D an engine that is only produced for that short of a time.



Why did dodge and cummins go about it this way if they are different? Why not just wait until they had 1 engine that they knew they would have to have(by 2004) and produce that and not 2 different ones.



I will stop rambling on now!!!!!!!



I hope what I said makes sense to every one, and hope I did not miss some other thread that already discussed this.



PS. I am NOT woried about the engine, just wondering where it will leave the 03's and some 04's.



thanks

 

[KLockliear]

I think it will be a lot like the older ETC/ETH thing. Same basic engine with minor changes. Possibly even the same injectors with different programming.

 

[DPelletier]

Don't worry about it. The new engine is tweaked a little and has some new parts, but its still basically the same ETH as before. They only made the 2nd gen ETH with the VP44 for two years and there aren't any issues there.

As far as I know the basic fuel system with the CP3 and solenoid injectors has been largely carried over.



In my mind DC confused the heck out of everybody calling this thing the "600". I know why they did it and wanted a cheap marketing boost, but it would have been more correct in my mind to keep calling it a HO. Order code is the same, both are ETH's. What are they going to do in a year or so when Ford has a 625ftlb engine, rename it a "650"? Because they chose to rename it with the snappy moniker, people were panicking and speculating all kinds of stuff like V-8 diesels, 6. 1 litre displacements, etc. , etc.

Fact is Cummins made some changes to thier 5. 9 HO (ETH) to meet January 2004 emmission requirements and because of the engine's compliance with the regs, the SO could be dropped from the lineup. There are more differences between the 12V and 24V engines of '97 and '98 and more differences between a VP44 equipped '02 and a CP3 equiped '03 than there is between a 2004 ETH and a 2004. 5 ETH.



I feel better now!



Dave

 

[TBrennan]

I think the 2003 - 2004 motors will remain easier to bomb. The electronics are little easier and their is no cat to worry about.



I'm sure the aftermarket will do whatever is necessary to get upgrades on the newer engines but they will be small (if any) adjustments over the R&D they've already spent.



Legally (emissions wise), the 2003's and 2004's may be the best thing going for a long time.

 

[TheWolf]

dpelletier,



I know there are huge differences between the 12v and 24v( 98 1/2 to 2002). But those engines were produced for at least 5 years each so there are lots of time to produce products and have lots of extra prts available to the consumer. They didn't confuse me by calling it the 600( I think it is a good marketing tactic for them), but what is confusing is all the additional electrical

parameters and different ecm.

I know there is a diff between the 24v of 02 and of 03. But the o3 engine has only been in production for 1 1/2 years. Now all these engines are computer controlled so when you start controlling MORE and MORE of the engine even little changes can be BIG problems. I am not saying that there is going to be one, but it is just something that had me thinking. So yes the overall engine has not changed that much with 600 compared to mine , but the things that were changed might make things a lot more difficult down the road.



If you have 1 cam plate, it might work on all 12v, if you have one edge ez(or whatever) it might work on all 24v vp44's( I do not know for sure I am new to electronics), but the ez someone has for their new 03 hpcr engine might be the only truck it will ever work on. ?



What I am trying to understand is if the non-600 guys are going to but stuck with some of the things that they have bought or will be buying. Are they going to be able to selll used stuff,?, because if these boxes and injectors and other things will only work on 03 then you have to plan on what you buy carefully as not to loose to much money because only so many trucks were produced during the 03 and first 04' trucks. How many 12v and 2nd gen 24v were produced to sell you stuff to as compared to how many 03 and early 04's if the "600" is not that compatible with ours.



This is one thing I would like to find out before I start doing much planning with mine. If I want to look for some used stuff I might have trouble locating it. And if they are different, there probably will not be much incentive for the companies to do many /if any updates to the products.











WHEW!! Thanks, and NO dpelletier this is not a rant about you , Just hopefully explains a little more as to what I may be concerned about.

 

[DPelletier]

Wolf,

No worries. I see your point, but I don't think it'll be a big problem. Odds are most "600" stuff should work on the '03 and '04 HO's. They're not that different. I will admit that with the ECM changes, some of the electronic "goodies" may need to be redesigned for '04. 5. That having been said, how many trucks did they make in '03 and the first half of '04? 100,000 maybe? Still a big market, I think.



Cheers

Dave



ps. my rambling first post wasn't aimed at you, either. I just took the opportunity your thread provided to give my 2 cents about the renaming of the HO.

 

[boonsur]

I, on the other hand, also worry a little. The vendors have a lot of time into the boxes for the '03-'04's, so I'm sure they'll have something for us soon (they'll want to market it, to recoupe some of their R&D costs). However, I do wonder if that will be the end of the development for our trucks. In theory, there will be a lot more volume of the 600+ engines, so they'll be more inclined to put their efforts into those. Hopefully, they'll be similar enough, they just have to change a few settings from one to the other.

 

[RedSmoke]

Numbers game?

Has anybody actually seen the new 600 numbers posted as "net HP" or "net torque?" I haven't seen any units on their numbers and almost makes me think CTD is starting to play a numbers war with the other manufacturers. I know I've seen Ford numbers posted as "gross" to make them sound bigger, and I kinda wonder if Dodge wouldn't play the same game... .



Reason being, my 555 ft-lb (SAE Net) could easily be 600 if I stripped all the accessories off and ran the bare engine?!?!?



Just something to ponder here.

 

[CATCRACKER]

just have to wait and see. it is not like it will effect your resale value b/c most people are fine with 305 hp! As far as bombing there is enough stuff out there already. 150hp TST box, bolt on turbos, injectors what else do you need? With stacked boxes and turbo and DD3's i would imagine you would be around 500+ hp! How many ponies do you want to make?

 

[TBrennan]

So, given the new TST box is 125 Hp/ 500 ft/lbs and there are injectors and turbos already, you guys are worried there won't be more developments done for power mods on the 2003s and 2004s?



I could see a drag racer / sled puller maybe being concerned but how much more power do you guys need and are really planning to go beyond what has already been anounced?





Myself I would be happy with truck that can handle the TST box alone. That would be as far as I would ever want to turn it up.

 

[CATCRACKER]

i am happy with just an ez on level 4. how much do you need?

 

[KLockliear]

Originally posted by CATCRACKER

With stacked boxes and turbo and DD3's i would imagine you would be around 500+ hp! How many ponies do you want to make?

Stacked boxes? You can get to 500rwhp now with DD3's, turbo and a rail pressure box like our TTPM. When the timing/pulse boxes come out, we're expecting in the mid 600's.

 

[AndyMan]

Originally posted by XcumminsX

wont be reliable

I would imagine not, but you don't build a 500+hp rig to drive every day or hotshot. IMHO, 400+ is awesome, but very limiting to anyone who wants to use the truck for it's original intention: "work"



6honey is still wicked awesome, but if you wanna play you gotta be willing to pay.

 

[KLockliear]

Originally posted by XcumminsX

wont be reliable

Thanks for the insight XCX. Maybe I should go tell Lawrence that his truck that has been at 500rwhp+ for the last 14 months is due to die at any second. It's a daily driver that goes 55miles each way to and from work each day, plus the trips he makes pulling the 14k 36' 5th wheel.



Seriously guys, if you don't know what you're talking about, please don't mis-inform the rest of the populace.

 

[AndyMan]

Clarification:

I do NOT purport to know about the reliability of extreme hp motors. Hopefully my post didn't come across that way.



I would imagine though that asking the mule to produce that kind of power would stress parts. It has been my experience (from reading) that there is a direct relationship from power to longevity. A shorter lifespan though does NOT have anything to do with reliability of the motor.



Originally, I was shocked that someone would have an extreme HP truck and want to work it..... Sometimes I forget that there are people like me who HAVE to work their truck, but also want to have fun with it. Most of us can't afford one for work and one for play... we have to muddy the lines.



Hope that clarifies my statement a little... .

Take care guys,

/abg

 

[KLockliear]

Not aimed at you Andy.



We have seen NO reliability issues with the engines below around 550hp. The '03 is even stronger for several reasons. Above that we have seen components have issues (pumps on the earlier 24v's for instance) but not problems with the long block itself.

 

[XcumminsX]

klockliear... I have heard that stacking something like the edge and tst will make the truck run bad. things like loops at idle and other driveability issues. I never meant to say that the truck with 500+ hp isnt reliable. Im saying if you have that mid 600 figure with the stacked boxes... . things are going to go wrong... Am i right or wrong here... If i am wrong ill admit it but im not going to not say anything ... . I was told by my buddy that stacking a fuel box with the timing and duration will cause major un-natural occurances with the motor...



P. S. this wasnt meant to get you mad or anything. I plan to buy products from you in the future. I dont want you to think im a *******. .

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

One thing that has struck me at the several dyno sessions I have attended, is that the Cummins, below 500 HP or so, seems to run in normal operation pretty much like a stocker from casual observation - whereas, the Ford and GM stuff at those power levels, seem to run sorta ratty and ragged - no mistaking they have been seriously modified for higher power.



Seems like the ability of the Cummins to absorb those power increases with minimal fuss should be reflected in it's reliability and lifespan as well.

 

[KLockliear]

Up to 500hp, you are right Gary... the Cummins is very driveable and has very good manners. Above that, they can get finicky, because you are running big turbo's and big injectors that are hard to "turn down" for the low power stuff like idling and low RPM cruise. They still work very well when you ask for the power to be delivered.



XCX, while we have not tested the upcoming Edge timing/pulse box yet, I can assure you they will not release it before we do. I'm sure if there are driveability issues with it, they will be tuned out before it ever hits the market. They are well aware of the fact that many people will be stacking it with the pressure box and bigger than stock injectors. For this reason, driveability will obviously be address.



On our front, we will certainly test it with every combination we currently offer, plus with the "next" turbo as the one we currently offer will not support an additional 100+hp gain over what we currently make.



And on the other thing... it doesn't make me mad or bother me personally, but look at what you posted from the point of view of someone new to the TDR. Your 3-word "won't be reliable" would lead a newbie to believe that it can't be done, which certainly is not and will not be the case.

 

[XcumminsX]

Klocklier- You are right. I deleted that post. Thanks for helping me out there.



Nick