Are we a republic?

[jwdeeming]

ANY form of God based political group is as bad as the Taliban in my book

Ouch.



Like those whackos we refer to as the Founding Fathers?

 

[Champane Flight]

Does?

For the the people, By the people. Some people think because our constitution has mention of God in it, it is a christian based goverment. This nation was founded on freedom of religion, NOT religion. God in our constitution was meant to be a general term of higher power, not that we should all become christian, or that we are meant to all be a certain religion.



But, of course you have the right to believe what and who you want. Of course so do I.....

 

[Yellowlab]

sounds like you need a history lesson Champane.

 

[Champane Flight]

I am sure

I am sure all the christians out there would like to interpet the word God to their liking. And it probably has been in the past, by some of the founders. However, I do not try to read in what is not. The separation of church and state is just fine with me. Anytime you mix religion with goverment you have serious trouble. Goverment has enough overburden and bueracreacy without adding religion, morals and honor are what is needed.

Does this come with religion? Not often.



Check your history for those cases. The Crusades, the Inqusition (sp), and the mess we are in now. I tend to look beyond the storefront. If you would look at the KKK at a glance you might say " Oh theres a nice group of white Christian boys in sheets. " . Or maybe the Hells Angels as "A good wholesome bike club with a few very independant members".

 

[The patriot]

Re: Does?

Originally posted by Champane Flight

Some people think because our constitution has mention of God in it, it is a christian based goverment.

Our country WAS founded on Christian values and ideaologys.

It also provided freedom of religion.

Two completely seperate ideas, dont combine the two.

Eric

 

[jwdeeming]

I am sure all the christians out there would like to interpet the word God to their liking. And it probably has been in the past, by some of the founders. However, I do not try to read in what is not.

That is commendable. It also means if you read the Bible literally and don't "read into it", you know that using groups like the crusaders and the KKK to broad brush Christianity is way off. YES, there are whackos. YES, people have interpreted scripture to their own ends. But that does not define Christianity.

The separation of church and state is just fine with me. Anytime you mix religion with goverment you have serious trouble.

The Founding Fathers had in mind that the government should not be in the business of establishing a state religion (which was the main thing they were trying to escape by coming here), nor should it prevent the free excercise of the same. But to say that they meant religion should not have any influence on governmental affairs is, again, way off the mark. You are correct, we were not established as a "Christian" nation or government. But the founders did share the Judeo-Christain world view and the entire system reflects that.



I don't want a government religion any more than you do, but if I'm a Christian trying to influence my government within the legal ways and means it allows, then it is extremist (to the left?) for you to say that I am as dangerous as the Taliban, KKK, crusades, etc. Unless I'm misreading your posts, I bet you are intending to stay much closer to the middle than that.



I have ancestors that bled and died to make this country what it is, and you may have too. There is room for many views in this marketplace of ideas, but let's not degenerate into making crass, inaccurate generalities about opposing views. That would be irresponsible, at the least.



"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. "

- John Adams, Second President of the United States

- Not a whacko.



JimD

 

[Steve M]

I'm glad to read that the Constitution was written for a moral and religious people. Since I'm a moral person and my wife is a religious person, we should be covered.

I have ancestors who died needlessly so that these God fearing people could barge in uninvited and take over the entire continent. Then these God fearing people brought more people of another color over to sell like cattle to do the hard labor and dirty work. When that idea went belly up, these God fearing people went exploiting people of yet another color for their cheap labor and unseen suffering in foreign lands. What's next? Go full circle and abuse our own American people again to fuel the greed? Well, we have Mexico to exploit. I guess they're next. Oh, we're already in the process. I forgot about the North American Free Labor Agreement.

 

[RonaldLarson]

Oh, Champaign,

you serve us well with your dilusional interpretations of conservative groups agendas. The JB society has been historically correct in ALL of it's perceptions of the outcome of laws, court law making and the degredation of social mores.

Rave on, for your time as an influence in society is very very limited. The groundswell of anti-socialistic thought processes has begun, but it really began with slick willie. Coddle your dependence on those who promise that the feds will take care of you. Those of us who have belief in our personal ability, perseverence, lust for success and INDEPENDENCE will show you the door. You'll love Great Britain!

Not afilliated with the JB society, except by observence of their predictions.

Ron

 

[baby.driver]

Don't blame JESUS for Christians mistakes.

All who call HIS name will not see heaven.



Jay

 

[Champane Flight]

Need?

I need NO man or goverment to take care of me Ron. I may be the last of the independent thinkers left. I am very honored to be a part of society that has a mind left of their own. The only thing that I feel threatened by is the so called "Moral Majority". Who by shear one mindedness and not so moral acts are threatening to take over the mainstay of society.



I have been lied to by our goverment before and it comes as NO suprize to me that they will and are lying to me again. It did not suprize me when Bill C. was caught lying, or when R. Nixon was, or my goverment lied to me over VN, and it will not suprize me if we find someday that old GWB is lying to. What suprizes me is that someone could fall for the propaganda that comes from either side.



I do not have a lust for success, I am quite grounded in my dreams. I am a worker, and a fighter. I will work for every dollar I have, and fight for everything and everyone I believe in. Do I believe in socialism? I believe that a little bit of socialism keeps the capitialists honest and helps spread a little wealth around. It also gives the common man something to hope and dream for.



Independence and personal ability in the buisness world will only buy you a cup of coffee. In the world you are refering to, knowing someone and kissing a lot of hinny is the only thing that will get you ahead. Everyone here is a servant to someone.



As far as moving out of the USA? This is MY country right or wrong I will fight for it and have. I keep my powder dry at all times. Anyone who wants to open the door for me is liable to loose a hand.



Good post Steve.

 

[Bill Lins]

Re: Need?

Originally posted by Champane Flight

I believe that a little bit of socialism keeps the capitialists honest and helps spread a little wealth around. It also gives the common man something to hope and dream for.



Independence and personal ability in the buisness world will only buy you a cup of coffee. In the world you are refering to, knowing someone and kissing a lot of hinny is the only thing that will get you ahead. Everyone here is a servant to someone.

Quite frankly, these statements make you sound as though you are looking for excuses to explain your own failures. In addition to independence and personal ability, the self-discipline to defer gratification and the acceptance of responsibility for one's own actions are required to be successful in business. It sounds like you need to take a good hard look deep inside yourself and determine what qualities you have and lack and decide what you are going to do about them. Whining and making excuses for yourself will get you nowhere. Good luck.

 

[mdlowry]

I believe that a little bit of socialism keeps the capitialists honest and helps spread a little wealth around.

Well, for one thing, the government (according to the old, outdated, and ignored Constitution) does not have the athority to do this. However it hasn't stopped them yet.

Even if they did have the athority, the government should not be "spreading the wealth around. " To do this, the government has to take this money from someone else by force to give it away to another. When anyone else does this, it is call theft (or armed robbery). There is no MORAL difference between a socialist government and a thief. (Well, maybe there is. A theif is more honest about his reasons. )

 

[Champane Flight]

If it...

I don't believe that my own failures or excuses for them have anything to do with the way big buisness really operates. I am part of a large Corp and have found my previous statements to be true over and over again. Maybe in some utopian world you guys live in the best man gets the job, but not in mine.



I have and do look at my failures very closely and I do tend to beat myself up for them. I do not make excuses however. I have had many chances to move up the ladder. I have even made it for short periods of time. But, I didn't like what I saw and said so. This bruised several egos and sent me back down the ladder. My statement has nothing to do with my failures, it has to do with observations. More people than I can count have moved up that ladder and most do not possess to common sense to blow a pi$$ ant to he!!. They do very well, because they say "yes" and bow to the right people.



I do not approve of a socialist goverment either. I do approve of labor. A friend of labor is a friend of mine. The difference between a CEO and a thief is that the thief has to take what is in the house. The CEO can take from all the houses, pick your pocket, and do it with a smile.

 

[FATCAT]

... a little bit of socialism ...

I believe that a little bit of socialism keeps the capitialists honest and helps spread a little wealth around. It also gives the common man something to hope and dream for.

A little bit of socialism is like a little bit of cancer, once it starts it is almost impossible to stop.



And if the common man's hopes and dreams are made up of dipping their hands in other peoples money ... well then this country is surely heading for a quick demise. Soon that spreading the wealth around will mean (if it dosen't already) having the common man's hand in his fellow common man's pocket at the same time dancing to whatever tune the federal/state gov't decides to play.



The only things we deserve or are entitled to are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and the rights enumerated in Bill of Rights.



Its a short swim to the worker's paradise south of Florida, for those who think a little socialism is wonderful ... a lot has to be better ... . right?

 

[Steve M]

I believe you all are taking a simple statement way out of context. The simple act of taxing our fuel to pay for roads is a form of socialism. We pay taxes to provide for law enforcement, firefighters and all other forms of social services. Services for society are paid for by society. If you start counting the social services that our government provides at the expense of taxpayers, and then eleminate them all, we wouldn't have much of a society. Without any socialism period, we would be literally dog eat dog and that would be every bit as bad as Cuber in the other extreme. Slavery is the purest form of Capitalism. Comunism is the purest form of Socialism. I don't want either extreme. The Constitution was written to prevent either extreme. As I read it, the Constitution was written for every American. Not Capitalists alone or Christians alone. Nowhere in the Constitution is it said that Capitalism is illegal. Nowhere in the Constitution does is state that collective bargaining is illegal. Nowhere in the Constitution does it state that my earnings shall be garnished to pay wages to another who can not or will not work. That's where I have a problem with socialism. That's when socialism has gone too far. The opposite extreme of slavery. Just as bad. Just as distructive to society. When did all this welfare start and for who? I'm all for sending those who DON'T want to work down to Cuba or some other Socialist country. Not those who are willing to work and simply want the most monitary gain for their work. Isn't that what Capitalism is about? Is taking money from my earnings to bail out a major corporation that I have no interests in any less wrong than taking money from my earnings to bail out a failing individual?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"I believe that a little bit of socialism keeps the capitialists honest and helps spread a little wealth around. "



Spreads WHO'S wealth around? And by WHAT moral right does ANY individual or group arbitrarily SEIZE the assets of another, and THEN also arbitrarily decide HOW it will be re-distributed, and to whom? All with a healthy amount deducted for their OWN personal use as a "handling fee"!



"It also gives the common man something to hope and dream for. "



WHAT? To be one of those fortunate enough to be at the trough at feeding time? To be "smart" enough to figure a way to keep FROM physical labor themselves, while enjoying the fruits of OTHER'S labor?



AS an admitted conservative and student capitalist, I neither NEED or appreciate those types of attempts to "educate" me or somehow keep me in line and on my toes... Especially by individuals or governments professing to be doing it "for my own good, and the best interests of our society... "



A line from my sig in past times:



"It's EASY to be a Liberal - it's usually OTHER peoples money they are giving away or living off of... "

 

[Bill Lins]

Originally posted by Steve M

Nowhere in the Constitution does it state that my earnings shall be garnished to pay wages to another who can not or will not work. That's where I have a problem with socialism.

Exactly. Champagne Flight- take note.

 

[Steve M]

Not trying to beat up on CF with my posts. In my ever so humble opinion you all make good points. CF obviously runs down the middle of the road. I lean just a little to the right. (wife says I hang to the left but I have no idea what she's talking about) I don't see CF as promoting welfare. But I do agree that workers within a successful business need to be recognized in their wallets for a job well done.

We're all in it for the money from the janitor to the CEO. I have no problem with a CEO making millions for his ability to guide a corporation to high levels of success. I also recognize that a good workforce is just as important as a good CEO and the workforce should also be compensated for a job well done.

There are some examples of people being paid way more than they're worth from the lazy janitor all the way to the lousy CEO. There are also many instances of people being taken advantage of for their hard work and humble personalities.

Exploiting humble people isn't illegal. But neither is joining humble people together to collectively bargain for a better wage. Harley Davidson is a perfect example of a company that's making record profits and pays it's workforce a decent income. I've bought several Harley Davidsons. I wouldn't buy a Nike tennis shoe if barefoot was the alternative.

 

[Charley]

Very interesting thread.



I can't help but believe that this conversation is much the same as those conversations that took place during the framing of our constitution. I'm not sure that it will have any impact on the conditions it addresses but it could if it expanded and endured. I urge you to continue in it and to do it as constructively as possible without acrimony.



One of our founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson, was not a God fearing man. He was a believer in the Bible but not as devine inspriation only as a good moral text to follow. I've heard but do not know for certainty that his copy of the Bible had all statements made by Jesus removed.



Another thing attributed to Jefferson was the statement that "a democracy (I'm sure he was referring to the representative republic he helped form) could only stand for 200 years then it had to be torn down by revolution and rebuilt. "



Is the unspoken question this thread is asking, are we 26 years overdue?



Charley

 

[93 1TON]

Form of gov.

I agree with most of the comments and observations. One of the problems is that most people are taught in government schools and are not taught how this country is supposed to be operated. Nowhere in the constitution are the words "democracy or entitled" mentioned. Too many people (lazy) want to believe that it does. Ben Franklin was asked what kind of government was just ratified?, a democracy, monarchy. . he replied "a republic, if the people can keep it. " It looks as if the ignorant, lazy, greedy, or people that just do not want to live in a country where self reliance, truth or basic morals is the rule, are going to win. Until everyone stops looking for the easy way out, it won't change. Rich p. s. Charely (?) Jefferson said "We need an armed revolution every 20 years, to keep the government honest. "