as they say, I voted with my feet

[DWeiler]

my mistake with 1/2 ton

In 1997 i ordered/bought a 1998 4x4 Dodge 360 1/2 ton gasser,stock,got about 14/15mpg on a average day,did some mods(ignition,exhaust,headers,air intake etc)got it up to about16/17mpg. Once i put the travel trailer behind it ,8/9mpg only at best,low power towing up hill, really working it,it seemed. Finally went to a cummins diesel(see sig for mods--yes i know it has some bombs, but i can't leave well enought alone)towing is now at 14/16mpg,same trailer,empty averaging 19/21mpg. Each vehicle/owner has a purpose for that vehicle,I drive a 14year old rusted Honda to work only for the fact that it cheap transportation(35mpg) and let the Cummins do what its made to do --TOW. I wish ICOLEMAN all the best with the new rig(sharp looking vehicle)but when towing through those rockies,i'll stick with the Cummins. ---My 2 cents worth

 

[rbattelle]

Swalls is probably referencing this poll.



I started that poll, and it has remained at 12-15% since inception.



Scientific? Not really, but better than nothing.



-Ryan

 

[RTuvell]

Swalls is probably referencing this poll.



I started that poll, and it has remained at 12-15% since inception.



Scientific? Not really, but better than nothing.



-Ryan

Okay fine. Your poll asked about injector failure in common rail engines and your poll yields 12 - 15%. So how does this compare to the rate of injector failures in engines prior to common rail? Before we start pointing a finger at common rail we need more info on the normal rate of injector failure.



Even with the common rail systems there are outstanding questions regarding what is causing the "injector failures" and whether or not it is even injector failure or something causing injector failure such as sub 15micron particles in the fuel.

 

[swalls]

I appreciate everybody's view and decision to go diesel. You wouldn't be on this website if you didn't feel that way. There are tons of positives with diesel engines... mileage, torque, durability, resale value, etc... as a service manager of a diesel shop, I am fully aware of those aspects. BUT: I don't see anybody in Detroit doing much of anything to resolve their basic problem. As for the failure rate menitoned, rbattelle, thank you, I was refering to your poll, and a similar poll on the Chebby website, and a similar poll on the Ferds. FACT: The Bosch common rail system simply doesn't have the kinks out of it yet, no matter what engine it's put in. despite being installed in the Ford 7. 3L for a number of years now. You would think after being around that long they would have bulletproofed it by now. I will NOT spend an extra $6K on a vehicle for the privilege of joining the 12-15% raffle loser's pool; no thank you. That high of a failure rate of even 1 fuel injector is simply unacceptable to me. FACT: The failure rate on the older fuel injection systems with mechanical pressure-differntial operated fuel injectors is NOWHERE near the failure rate of the CRD system... regardless of mileage or hours of operation. FACT: more than a few TDR members (and Lord knows how many that are not TDR posters) have gone through very unpleasant catastrophic engine failures caused by the Bosch system's unreliability, and have had to suffer through economic loss caused by STAR's stinginess and indecison (not to mention the corresponding Ferd and Chebby failures; their parts, service, and warranty processes are all just as bad as Dodge's, from what I gather. ) Of course, the internet polls are informal and unscientific, but on all 3 websites; it varies from 12-15% of owners reporting at least 1 injector failure. I guess it's like what President Ford once said about the unemployment rate; if it's YOU that's out of a job; the unemployment rate is 100%.

Here's another FACT: Bill Kondolay posts on his DTT website that it seems the 48RE transmission was "designed to fail?" Thanks Dodge I really appreciate you asking $45K for a rig that you basically designed to crater on me as soon as it goes out of drivetrain warranty, or failed to redesign correctly so that it definitely will NOT do that so long as I take proper care of it and operate it reasonably--however you wanna look at it. Unless of course I have money falling out of my hip pocket to pay somebody $4K or so to re-do your mistake.

The unreliability factors carry much more weight with my purchasing decsion than any other single item... weighs more than money, more than towpower, much more than ugly cab interiors. The F150 is not my ideal long-term rig, but I did not want to purchase a full time 3/4-ton gas hog, so that I could "enjoy" 8-10 MPG full time, loaded or not. I plan to keep this F150 about 2-3 years, probably put about 60K miles on it, towing a 5000-lb bumper pull travel trailer about 4-5K miles, until the youngest gets out of college... hopefully by then Bosch/Cummins/Ford/GMC WILL have gotten the CRuD out of the CRD, maybe the new diesel standards will have firmed up, and perhaps get the realiability up to something approaching the P7100 pump system. . i. e. , bulletproof... . oh and maybe by then Dodge will also have done something about the rehashed old automobile transmission and the el cheapo seats.

BTW, it's not adios. . I will still be around the TDR, I didn't quit working on and being interested in diesels just cause I bought a Ferd gasser this time around.

 

[Hokey]

diesel prices

I think it's a little early to panick. I believe diesel prices will eventually come back into line with gasoline, if not then gasoline will follow the jump in diesel prices and were right back where we started. 10, 11 or 12 mpg with diesel while towing is still preferred (at least by me) over the 6, 7 and 8 mpg with some gasoline rigs. Been there, done that. bg

I second that.

 

[KBennett]

The unreliability factors carry much more weight with my purchasing decsion than any other single item... weighs more than money, more than towpower, much more than ugly cab interiors. The F150 is not my ideal long-term rig, but I did not want to purchase a full time 3/4-ton gas hog, so that I could "enjoy" 8-10 MPG full time, loaded or not. I plan to keep this F150 about 2-3 years, probably put about 60K miles on it, towing a 5000-lb bumper pull travel trailer about 4-5K miles, until the youngest gets out of college... hopefully by then Bosch/Cummins/Ford/GMC WILL have gotten the CRuD out of the CRD, maybe the new diesel standards will have firmed up, and perhaps get the realiability up to something approaching the P7100 pump system. . i. e. , bulletproof... . oh and maybe by then Dodge will also have done something about the rehashed old automobile transmission and the el cheapo seats.

BTW, it's not adios. . I will still be around the TDR, I didn't quit working on and being interested in diesels just cause I bought a Ferd gasser this time around.

What is this "unreliability" crap. Why do we here at the TDR have to listen to this? I am personally offended by your comments and think your post is complete nonsense. My truck is 1-1/2 years old with 22K miles and has been completely reliable. When you go to pull that 5K up a 6% grade this summer you will know why I bought a Cummins powered truck. My buddy in his V10 Ford can't keep up with me and his trailer weighs a thousand pounds less.

You will be in the right lane doing 40 mph if your lucky and I will be passing you in my Dodge with the "el cheapo seats and the unreliable injection" getting twice the mileage.

Buh Bye!

 

[slomodiesel]

in comparing the gas vs diesel cost factor, you also have to throw in the resale

value-- looking at used 3/4 or 1 ton trucks that are a few years old i think that you'll find that the extra that you paid for the diesel when new will nearly repay for it self when it is sold, at least when you look at dodge diesels anyway.

 

[kentdiesel]

Speaking from experience, I remember the good old days of having or being around high quality, less expensive 1/2 ton gasser pickups, still have one out back, been waiting for a sucker to ask how much I want for it.



They squat to the ground when you have to haul or tow something.

It uses more fuel but it makes up for it by towing and hauling less and doing it slower.

Modify it for more power and it drinks even more fuel.



I will admit, you can not fully appreicate a 3/4 ton or 1 ton diesel pickup til you have suffered thru trying to haul/tow heavy with a 1/2 ton.



If you don't haul,tow or have far to go, a 1/2 ton will do just fine.



Kent

 

[rbattelle]

Relax, guys, don't go getting all offended. I don't think anyone in here's being "mean". And I don't think Swalls is "bashing" the engine.



I agree with Swalls that the injector failure rate will be higher with a common rail engine than with a jerk pump. Jerk pump injectors are just tubes; there's almost nothing to fail in them. It's no secret that common rail injectors are prone to wear at the needle and seat, not to mention that tiny little check ball in there.



Maybe I'll post an injector failure poll over in the 2nd gen forums.



-Ryan

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

Ryan,



A poll most likely will not have any validity. Folks who have had failures will probably be more inclined to take the time and respond. IMHO you will either need to contact the dealers and get the information on trucks sold/trucks brought in with injector woes, or do a census of all the TDR members, or do a random sampling of sufficient size and models of TDR members in order to generate any statistical validity.



. 02



PS: I forgot to mention my sweet old 65 F250 only got 10mpg on a good day.

 

[Bertram65]

I appreciate everybody's view and decision to go diesel. You wouldn't be on this website if you didn't feel that way. There are tons of positives with diesel engines... mileage, torque, durability, resale value, etc... as a service manager of a diesel shop, I am fully aware of those aspects. BUT: I don't see anybody in Detroit doing much of anything to resolve their basic problem. As for the failure rate menitoned, rbattelle, thank you, I was refering to your poll, and a similar poll on the Chebby website, and a similar poll on the Ferds. FACT: The Bosch common rail system simply doesn't have the kinks out of it yet, no matter what engine it's put in. despite being installed in the Ford 7. 3L for a number of years now. You would think after being around that long they would have bulletproofed it by now. I will NOT spend an extra $6K on a vehicle for the privilege of joining the 12-15% raffle loser's pool; no thank you. That high of a failure rate of even 1 fuel injector is simply unacceptable to me. FACT: The failure rate on the older fuel injection systems with mechanical pressure-differntial operated fuel injectors is NOWHERE near the failure rate of the CRD system... regardless of mileage or hours of operation. FACT: more than a few TDR members (and Lord knows how many that are not TDR posters) have gone through very unpleasant catastrophic engine failures caused by the Bosch system's unreliability, and have had to suffer through economic loss caused by STAR's stinginess and indecison (not to mention the corresponding Ferd and Chebby failures; their parts, service, and warranty processes are all just as bad as Dodge's, from what I gather. ) Of course, the internet polls are informal and unscientific, but on all 3 websites; it varies from 12-15% of owners reporting at least 1 injector failure. I guess it's like what President Ford once said about the unemployment rate; if it's YOU that's out of a job; the unemployment rate is 100%.

Here's another FACT: Bill Kondolay posts on his DTT website that it seems the 48RE transmission was "designed to fail?" Thanks Dodge I really appreciate you asking $45K for a rig that you basically designed to crater on me as soon as it goes out of drivetrain warranty, or failed to redesign correctly so that it definitely will NOT do that so long as I take proper care of it and operate it reasonably--however you wanna look at it. Unless of course I have money falling out of my hip pocket to pay somebody $4K or so to re-do your mistake.

The unreliability factors carry much more weight with my purchasing decsion than any other single item... weighs more than money, more than towpower, much more than ugly cab interiors. The F150 is not my ideal long-term rig, but I did not want to purchase a full time 3/4-ton gas hog, so that I could "enjoy" 8-10 MPG full time, loaded or not. I plan to keep this F150 about 2-3 years, probably put about 60K miles on it, towing a 5000-lb bumper pull travel trailer about 4-5K miles, until the youngest gets out of college... hopefully by then Bosch/Cummins/Ford/GMC WILL have gotten the CRuD out of the CRD, maybe the new diesel standards will have firmed up, and perhaps get the realiability up to something approaching the P7100 pump system. . i. e. , bulletproof... . oh and maybe by then Dodge will also have done something about the rehashed old automobile transmission and the el cheapo seats.

BTW, it's not adios. . I will still be around the TDR, I didn't quit working on and being interested in diesels just cause I bought a Ferd gasser this time around.

FYI, the 7. 3 is not a CR motor.

As far as the transmission "FACT" I would take that with a grain of salt seeing as the information comes from someone who stands to gain from providing it.

 

[RTuvell]

Relax, guys, don't go getting all offended. I don't think anyone in here's being "mean". And I don't think Swalls is "bashing" the engine.



I agree with Swalls that the injector failure rate will be higher with a common rail engine than with a jerk pump. Jerk pump injectors are just tubes; there's almost nothing to fail in them. It's no secret that common rail injectors are prone to wear at the needle and seat, not to mention that tiny little check ball in there.



Maybe I'll post an injector failure poll over in the 2nd gen forums.



-Ryan

Ryan,



In all due respect you seem to be missing the point and in fact appear to have a built in bias yourself. You state, "I agree with Swalls that the injector failure rate will be higher with a common rail engine than with a jerk pump. " First you claim there is a higher failure rate of injectors in common rail systems than in non-common rail systems (this has never been proven) , then you claim injector failures in common rail systems are the fault of the common rail systems (this has never been proven), and then you conduct internet polls with "the issues in question" biased towards the conclusion you have already reached. All that your Internet polls are achieving is creating a false sense of the issues which then create misunderstandings resulting in misinformation being spread all over the Internet just as swalls is doing.



IMHO the issues in debate are:



"Are there higher rates of failures within Cummins common rail diesel fuel systems than non-common rail diesel fuel systems?"



If so, "how" are these failures showing-up: pump failures, injector failures, pump failures causing injector failures, other?



If so, what is "causing" the failures: sub-micron particles in the fuel, manufacturer's defects in the pumps, manufacturer's defects in the injectors, fuel system components not capable of meeting the requirements, poorly engineered fuel systems, other?



Sadly, only Cummins, Bosch, and the Mopar techs may know the answers to these questions and they aren't sharing the answers with the folks who really need to know, the customer, us fellow Cummins owners.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I think the biggest difference between "jerk style" injection systems, and the HPCR, is that a bad older style injector MIGHT not even be noticed if it isn't REAL bad - and will probably only cause a rough running engine if it IS bad enough. Could be quite a few owners driving around with "bad" older style injectors who don't even know it - much like lift pumps...



A bad HPCR injector, on the other hand, usually seem to cause SERIOUS problems when they fail - and are FAR less likely to go unnoticed when they do go bad...



AND, WHY do some seem to feel the irresistable urge to take personal offense, when another member here is merely stating his OWN personal opinion or choice? *I* am certainly not offended if someone prefers a Ford or GM over the Dodge - THEIR choice in no way affects MY choice, or how my truck performs for me.



Get a GRIP, guys!

 

[KBennett]

This is not about getting a grip, it's about a guy who is talking trash about our trucks and the choice we made and why a gasser may be a better alternative.

Swalls is the one who needs to get a grip and stop looking for people to justify his decision.

Do you see me over on a Ford F150 forum bashing Fords because they don't have enough power to pull a trailer up a 6% grade or because the engine won't make it to 100K miles? No.

Swalls can take his post elsewhere because it serves no useful purpose on this forum. Especially when he uses incorrect data for his posts.



To add one more reason for injector failures: How many of the failures were because somebody put a pressure box on their truck and kicked the pressures up on the Common Rail until it beat the injectors to death? Or, how about a fueling box that increased the EGT's to the point of meltdown?



I respect Ryan and the rest of my fellow TDR members posts but let's stopping looking at the problems at look at some solutions. The Ford F150 is not a solution in my opinion and if the injectors were so bad on our trucks Dodge would have made it official with a recall.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"This is not about getting a grip, it's about a guy who is talking trash about our trucks and the choice we made and why a gasser may be a better alternative. "



NO, I'm sorry, but you're WRONG!



He has made public an evaluation for HIS choice based upon his own comparisons and evaluation of various points related to trucks - he has made absolutely NO claims or "talked trash" about YOUR specific truck, or mine!



He has done absolutely NOTHING more than the guys on the Ford or GM boards who make sweeping judgements or claims - often false - about other brands - THEY TOO are not attacking MY specific truck or YOURS, only relating their personal opinion regarding the Dodges as a whole - BIG difference between making a BROAD and GENERAL statement of personal opinion, and directly attacking SPECIFIC trucks or individuals!



I might be correct in defending, or taking offense over statements made against ME, or MY truck - but I'll leave it to DC to defend the brand in general - unless DC wants to start paying me as one of theit PR reps...

 

[TX Gooseneck]

If I were to buy a toy truck (1/2 ton and on down) I would look at the Titan. I drove one and it's a nice package. After owning a ton of Fords, I'd be afraid to buy one now. Chevy's have oil problems and end up sounding like a diesel from what I gather The toyota seems to small, but I have no personal experience. The hemi seems cool, the 11mpg doesn't.

 

[SHyans]

Here's my take on this post... . Wednesday night Swalls and his pals went down to the local Sev and picked up a briefcase of Bud with the intent of going back to his place to watch Dukes Of Hazzard reruns on the Crusty Channel. Unbeknowst to Swalls & Co. Wednesday was American Idol night and Swall's wifey was monopolizing the big screen. Therefore for entertainment sake and with nothing else to do, the chuckle brothers decide on a Plan B which was Swalls decides to go grenade fishing in TDR via this post and then sit back and see who bites! Oo.

Good one Swalls!

 

[rbattelle]

In all due respect you seem to be missing the point and in fact appear to have a built in bias yourself. You state, "I agree with Swalls that the injector failure rate will be higher with a common rail engine than with a jerk pump. " First you claim there is a higher failure rate of injectors in common rail systems than in non-common rail systems (this has never been proven) , then you claim injector failures in common rail systems are the fault of the common rail systems (this has never been proven), and then you conduct internet polls with "the issues in question" biased towards the conclusion you have already reached. All that your Internet polls are achieving is creating a false sense of the issues which then create misunderstandings resulting in misinformation being spread all over the Internet just as swalls is doing.

No offense taken, and I certainly respect your opinion. But I stand by my opinion that common rail injectors (just the injectors,not the remainder of the fuel system) are more prone to damage than jerk pump injectors specifically due to their design. I have this opinion based on Taylor's work (The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice, Vol. 2), based on what I've seen in this forum, looking at the injector cutaways, and just thinking logically about the differences between a common rail injector and a jerk pump injector.



For the record, I would judge the remainder of the common rail fuel system (injector pump, fuel lines, and fuel rail) to be of comparable reliability to their jerk pump counterparts.



I didn't think my injector replacement poll was biased... not sure how I could have worded it better. I mean, in a political poll they ask "who are you going to vote for?". My poll says "have you had an injector fail?". I'm not a professional pollster, so I don't know the "right" way to do it.



Please don't think I'm "bashing" our engines... I own one, so I obviously think it has many redeeming qualities. I'm just offering my opinion on the common rail system. I strongly encourage everyone to conduct their own research and come to their own conclusions.



-Ryan

 

[swalls]

Wow, some of you guys have way too much of your identity and emotions wrapped in a piece of machinery... that's all it is, boys, a piece of machinery. If you are offended by my post and opinion about the machinery, it really doesn't matter to me in the least. I've been around diesels, including Cummins 5. 9L, on a daily basis for 30+ years, and I don't regret not joining the xx. x% failure lottery at this time. Everything I have read on the Dodge, Chevy, and Ford sites indicates an increased injector failure rate. And for your guys who are waiting for Bosch to fess up and publish the actual failure rate, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona you really need to invest in. The investment returns will come in the same day that Bosch publishes the actual failure rate.

Added on edit: I can tell you from 30+ years repair experience on Cat, Navistar, IH, Case, Deere, and other engines that the failure rate on mechanical injection systems at 100K or 2000 hours is NOWHERE near our 12-15% poll estimate. No I didn't keep written detailed records over the last 30 years, so I'm sure some of you can say this is also unsubstanitated. Whatever. .



If you really don't believe that the CRD has more failures than the mechanical injection "jerk" pump, and that it doesn't result in more serious damage when an injector does fail... be sure NOT to read any of the recent posts by ceaman or rosco... it might force you to face the reality of the increased odds of this happening to anybody else who owns a CRD diesel, regardless of brand.



Oh and I'm sure all of you people who think the object of my post was to "grenade" Dodge know more than Bill Kondolay does about transmissions. . you seem to think his only object in posting the truth about what he sees is to make a nickel... so be sure to NOT read his article on the DTT website about the redesigned 48RE, or you might have to overcome your emotional bias and face another reality.



As far as towing, I know for sure that the F150 is going to be slower and suck lots of gas... DOH! Considering I tow less than 800 miles a year, I think I can live with that. Be sure and wave when you pass me... cause if you have a Dodge diesel, you darn sure are gonna pass me. I knew that before I even test drove a single Dodge, GMC, and Ford gasser, but the last time I checked, nobody gets an award for getting to the KOA first.



If it makes some of you guys who don't have a life other than feeling big sitting behind the wheel of your 3RD GEN feel LOTS better, go ahead and flame away!! Oo. :-laf



P. S. : And I REALLY don't like the cheap uncomfortable Dodge seats. . if they float your boat, good for you. They don't do nuthin' for me, but hurt my back.

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

Ryan stated:

I didn't think my injector replacement poll was biased... not sure how I could have worded it better

Ryan, my thoughts on your poll had nothing to do with how you asked the question. My opinion was that a poll would be biased because 1) folks with injector woes would be more likely to answer the poll, and 2) statistacally a random sample with a large enough sample size would be needed. A random sample for our engines would actually answer swills statements about having to get all the records from Bosch with an excellent degree of statistical certainty, if done properly, e. g. a randon pick of owners and PM them with a questionaire.



My statement about the reliability of the NV5600 still stands.



Finally, the question which begs an answer is do you, Mr. swalls, have a life other than purposely deciding to post messages that you know will enflame the passions of folks here on the TDR? Folks here abouts seem to be happy with their decision to purchase a CTD and most have told you that it is fine that you found another truck that make you happy. Therefore, what is your purpose in responding in such a negative manner if you really don't care? Perhaps, it would be a pleasant thing if you would wander off and enjoy your truck with likeminded folks and let us enjoy this TDR site. Personally, it is time for me to wander off and enjoy other more constructive threads.