2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission At the end of my rope...

[rivercat]

I am fighting thre worst steering I ever had. I had the truck loved the steering on the stock Michelins then I hit the ditch in the ice one year and it warped the RR and broke the right suspension block. Then I had a Tough country lift put on and it drove decent for about 5k then the caster bolts came loose and egged out. Since then I have done ball joints the t style steering, thurens trackbar and changed the stabilizer to a HD rancho. It still got worse and worse due to the crappy bushings that came with the lift. Aafter the last ditch effort to correct it with a bd brace, I changed to a custom high $ set of control arms made with ballistic joints (zero play) and carli leveling springs. Now it is right down horrible It pulls right no matter how I set the caster and then jerks left if I hit a dip in the road. Under allot of power it pulls left then jerks right when I let off. I have tightened the steering box to the point of exploding and just changed the hub on the side with the most tire wear= no change. I know there may be some wear in the sway bar bushings and track bar bushing. But I never had this bump steer before.

I know toe is pretty close and the local alignment shops I been to insist on seting castor at like 2* and we all know that it takes 4* minimum

Im pretty discouraged $1200 spend just on steering upgrades and it drives worse than ever.



can anyone veterans or techs with good front end knowledge help me out ?

 

[SierraRam]

Are you sure you didn't tweak the frame from when you hit the ditch? The way you are talkink it sounds like the rear axle is not straight, this will push the truck under power and then when you let off it will want to snap back do to the correction you make to the steering.

 

[SRath]

Have you had the truck to a good truck frame and axle shop? You didn't say what was done after the ditch to put it right before adding aftermarket stuff and mods. You should have got it back to "right" before doing anything. If you did do serious frame or axle damage, your insurance would have maybe covered it back then.

And I agree it sounds like you are being pushed around by an out-of-whack rear axle more than pulled around by frontend issues.

Back to the cracked lift block: Did the rear axle get centered properly when that was replaced? It wouldn't have to be very cockeyed to do what you describe. You need to have a fully equipped frame and axle shop take a good look. There really is no substitute.

 

[BHanna]

If you had your truck lifted, you pretty much have to reduce the caster on the front end. If you don't, you'll have a sub-optimal front driveshaft angle that will cause vibration and really short u-joint life so pick whichever one you'd rather have.

 

[SRath]

Way back when I bought my first Chevy pickup when in my early 20's, I had issues the first couple of days with being shoved one way when I accelerated and then jerked back the other way when I let off, similar to what you described.

In that case, it was a matter of ignorance and air pressure. Ignorance because i did not know the truck had a locker in the rear axle; air pressure because one rear tire had 4 psi less air than the other, thus reducing it's effective height just slightly compared to the other tire.

Lockers are that sensitive to mismatched tire diameter.

Unless you have a true locker (a limited slip won't do that), I doubt if that is your problem. But it does show how the rearend can steer the truck around exactly as you described.

 

[rivercat]

sounds like good advice guys, the lift is gone It had 5. 5" blocks and add a leafs. I removed the 5. 5s to replace the OEM 4. 75" blocks and left the adda leafs just to see how it did. As far as eye balling or using my hand width from the fender well to tire the rear end looks straight or straighter than its been in a long time. one of the 5. 5" blocks did shear its nipple off and was constantly walking out of line. but even then it still wasnt as bad as this. And if the rear end is fairly straight I should be able to cancel what little bit of offness with the castor like if the rear end is tilted right I should be able to lessen the left caster to correct right.

Im ok with a slight pull but its when you hit the dip and she just turns left I cant stand... .
Im thinking its some play in the Track bar bushings = when the front end dips it slops one way then the other.

Its just to unpredictable and scary at speed to enjoy as soon as I get full spool in high gear Im all over the road almost white line to white line. Its hairy almost worse than a crotch rocket at 120+

I suppose I could do a 40-$50 line up just to see the trust angle number and check the toe any thing they do to the caster will be pointless if the thrust angle is more than a few tenths off.

 

[Hammer]

You never said what you did to the front axle after the caster bolt egged them out. If you did nothing to repair this then all the work your doing in the front end is a waiste time. Also,I would check to see where you stand,knowing you had the accident,on if you do have a wheel cocked(or the wheelbase longer on one side than the other). It can be checked easily enough with the help of a friend and a long tape measure. Measure from the center of the rear lift block to the center of the top ball joint going under the trucks body and see where your at. If you find theere is a difference then you obviously need a trip to a reputable frame shop to make sure its not frame damage related.



If the previous suspension sheared off one of the center locating pins on the rear springs it needs to be replaced or it will never stay centered and will give you the wandering effect. A trip to a good spring shop for a new center bolt and you should be ok,cost for that should be minimual.



As for the pull to the right under braking,that may be just a caliper that is sticking. I would remove both front calipers and make sure that the slides are free and all the rust is removed from the caliper mounts on the truck. Use some anti-sieze when putting them back on and see what or how it acts under braking afterwards.



Caster setting from Ma Mopar is supposed to be anywhere from 2. 2 degrees and 4. 2 degrees. The shop who does mine has them set at 3. 5 degrees on both sides and they have been like that along time now.



Check the trac bar with the truck sitting on the ground and with the enginne running have someone move the steering wheel side to side while you watch it underneath. Any movement will be seen and if it is then the bar needs replaced. Most times with the stock bar it will pop up and down at the bolt at the drivers side wheel and/or slide side to side on the axle end. Since I seen you have a Thuren trac bar I can not imagine its bad already unless you had some wear on the mounting bolt at the axle you did not forsee.



Are you sure you went to the inverted T steering and not by mistake switched yours the other way to inverted Y?. I do know Ma Mopar was not very good about using the same front end parts all through a run of trucks. I have seen both inverted T and inverted Y on late model trucks. What your describing under acceleration and on bumps leads me to think this way.



Here is a link to one of my club members trucks who did the change over from Y to T steering.....



https://www.turbodieselregister.com...ing-t-type-dual-stabilizer-kit-installed.html

 

[rivercat]

Ok

The egging was in the bushings and sleeves in the control arms that were a part of the lift kit. I am now running TITAN machine bars just like yours sept with the bend and made . 5" longer for use with my 2. 5" carli springs. The lift was ok till some of the bolts came loose and it wore the sleeves and rubber and then its like you could never tighten them enough to get the slop out that and the harshness of the ride. The peg that got sheered was on one of the blocks it aligns the block into the spring perch that is on the axle. I drilled a hole and added a piece of a like sized long grade 8 bolt but that wasnt as good and centered as it was before it happened. The OEM blocks I have now have all pegs intact. The rear end seems tilted very slightly to the right less than 1/4".

The steering I have is T style I changed it after the balljoints didnt help much. Its a rod from wheel to wheel then the drag link from the pass side 6 inches or so from the wheel to the pitman arm. I had DW once from running without the stabilizer because theres no hole for it. Maybe that wore the new stuff badly.

not sure how to center the axle or to make trust angle( 0 ) without a frame machine I have seen a set of spacers there one side had a fixed peg and other side was adjustable the peg was on a bolt and you could move the peg either way from center to change thrust angle but it was made for half ton trucks.

 

[SRath]

It really sounds like the ditch twisted your frame so one rear corner is up and the other down and vice-versa for the front.

While these Dodges have fairly massive frame rails, especially the front 2/3, the rear is just narrow channel and there isn't a whole lot tying the two frame rails together in the same plane. It could twist easily. It is, in fact designed to flex a bit in that regard, but an impact could make it permanent.

If you laid your bare frame on the floor, it would probably have opposite corners, front to rear, off the floor like a pinewood derby car with only one front wheel and the opposite rear wheel touching the track. Just think about the shape of that ditch for a moment. Probably had opposite wheels off the ground?

 

[rivercat]

It wasnt the ditch specifically but the driveway pipe that got the RR wheel It put a big kink in it so bad it wouldnt hold air. I had a aluminum shop heat it slowly and hammer it out so it held air but it was still untrue on a balancer. I agree that angles are off and that causes some pull but I really am fishing for the answer to the bump steer question why it pulls hard left under compression and back right as the suspension unloads. I got the truck running fairly straight by running the right cam all the way forward and the left cam in the middle to take most of the right pull out of it and its fairly manageable cruising at low speeds till you hit the first dip and it darts left/right or go for high speed.
I am in contact with Don Thuren and plan to change the axle end bushing on my track bar just in case and then hit an alignment shop to check toe and trust angle.

 

[SierraRam]

Bump steer can be caused by a big difference between the trackbar angle compared to the drag link angle (from pitman arm to tie rods). What kind of aftermarket trackbar and or drop bracket was installed with the lift? Can you take some pictures for us?

 

[SRath]

"I agree that angles are off and that causes some pull but I really am fishing for the answer to the bump steer question why it pulls hard left under compression and back right as the suspension unloads. I got the truck running fairly straight by running the right cam all the way forward and the left cam in the middle to take most of the right pull out of it and its fairly manageable cruising at low speeds till you hit the first dip and it darts left/right or go for high speed. "



This sounds kinda like "I know my arm was broken, but I didn't want to pay to have it set straight, now I am frustrated that all the wraps and braces I buy won't fix my fastball pitch. "



I'm sorry if it isn't what you want to hear, rivercat, but fudging and cheating alignment settings, or buying high-dollar aftermarket components, isn't going to fix a bent frame. Only a good frame shop can do that.

 

[rivercat]

maybe so. but I still think its a component issue a bent frame is constant, not something that changes when you hit a bump or dip. we will see

 

[rivercat]

Well I got it aligned at an oldmans shop and he was sort grumpy, The toe was out some and the caster was 2. 3L 2. 8R and the right cam is all the way froward so I will be moving the holes for the top arms on the axle end forward at least a 1/4" maybe more so I can get closer to 4. 5-5. 0 * on the caster. I didnt get a number on thrust angle his old machine just changes the caster numbers and toe to compensate as the TA is not easily adjusted. I hope the greater caster will help the bump steer. the bumpsteer is new with the Arms I guess the worn bushings on the old arms alowed greater caster angle than the new ones causing the wild steering.

 

[rivercat]

Ok, put a new borgeson box and shaft on today bringing the total up to like 3k spent on the front end. It steers super nice, almost to easy but that didnt fix the problem. Gona work on the rear end and move the upper control arm holes tomorrow maybe.

 

[rivercat]

Ok got new ubolts gona try and true up the rear end real straight. My control arms are now stock length on top and . 5 longer on bottom for added caster. Anyone have horrible steering due to bad endlinks ? thinking of buying the maxlinks but dont want to burn the money for nothing. I really need to get the truck driving nice!

 

[SRath]

Swaybar endlinks should have minimal, if any, effect on steering, especially when traveling straight on smooth, level road. I currently have no steering stabiler at all due to switching to the T-style heavy-duty steering linkage and my swaybar endlinks still need replaced. I have heard about too many of those aftermarket links breaking to spend the money for them myself. The truck now drives (and rides) better than it ever has with the exception of one slightly out-of-balance wheel/BFG Mud-Terrain tire causing a tiny vibration at a certain speed.

Also, my neighbor just did my truck's alignment and he did a full 4-wheel alignment check which would indicate if the rear wheels were out of whack with the fronts (they weren't). Don't guess on your's or throw needless money at it; and you could never get it as accurate as a state-of-the-art alignment machine. Take it to a trusted shop to have it checked.

 

[d6c]

Going to true up the rear end??? IF springs mounts are in the right spot, the springs are true, and the center bolts are in one piece there is no choice where the rear end is going to go!! Sure sounds like something got hurt when you did your oops and a lot of people (including yourself) have been skirting the real problem, whatever it is. My vote is for a frame shop... they are like an alignment shop that is really,really good.

 

[rivercat]

well the center pins are not broken but are a little loose, in measuring from the front stud through the leaf to the center of the block I see a 1/4" less on the left side so the rear end it tweaked to the right slightly bout any truck I bet with miles can be fudged either way, don't assume that just because the pins are not broke and the blocks a doweled in the perches and all that that the rear end alignment its perfect. Mine being tweaked right makes a right hand pull without allot of caster on that side to compensate. All in all the truck drives nice on straight flat road its the bumps and dips that make it jerk around so I am hoping maxx links and the final perfect adjustment of the thrust angle and caster do the trick, also gona throw a new bushing on the axle end of my trackbar soon. At least with the top arms being shorter the rear end no longer hits the trackbar ball-end and makes the violent jerk to the left, or at least its not as bad as it was, With the softer springs and all the extra travel all the old problems are amplified in bumps I think.

 

[BK]

just one point... . fyi...
I had some bad weird tire wear, while doing the front rotors, figured while I was at it , did the bearing too,the funny tire wear is gone...

I had no other signs the bearings were being a problem...