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ATS and Black Mountain Diesel
- Thread starter Briar Hopper
- Start Date
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I think the comments by Tom are appropriate. If I were shopping for an auto, I'd certainly like to know what kind of service/support the vendors are getting from the manufacturer.
Charles
Charles
I didn't read Tom's origional post, so I can't comment on what was said then, but I can comment on my read of the situation.
Way to go Tom.
I've never done any buisness with ATS, although, I did attend their seminar at Muncie and talked to a few of them at the Atlanta Races. They seem like nice guys that seem to know about their product.
However, while I've never done any buisness with Tom, I've known him for years now and reciently was able to head up to his shop for the Dyno Day, Tom strikes me as one of the best guys I've ever met.
For those of you that have ATS trannys and love them, Great, I hope they last a long time and provide you with a great transmission. However, in communication with other BOMBers, I have noticed some things that would keep me from recomending ATS trannys / power parts to folks. I can think of at least 6 things off the top of my head. Now, I'm not going to go into them here because I don't have the permission of the parties involved.
I'm often asked by others what to do with their Dodges (I guess my truck tends to draw attention
). Those in search of a clutch, get sent to SBC, those needing at auto used to be sent to ATS or DTT, now it's DTT or Suncoast.
I respect Tom for what he's done. He had some problems with a major vendor and has decided to stop using thier product. Now, I don't know what was said in his origional post, but if it had been me posting it, it would have been pulled so durn fast as to make your head spin around a full 360 degrees.
Josiah
Way to go Tom.
I've never done any buisness with ATS, although, I did attend their seminar at Muncie and talked to a few of them at the Atlanta Races. They seem like nice guys that seem to know about their product.
However, while I've never done any buisness with Tom, I've known him for years now and reciently was able to head up to his shop for the Dyno Day, Tom strikes me as one of the best guys I've ever met.
For those of you that have ATS trannys and love them, Great, I hope they last a long time and provide you with a great transmission. However, in communication with other BOMBers, I have noticed some things that would keep me from recomending ATS trannys / power parts to folks. I can think of at least 6 things off the top of my head. Now, I'm not going to go into them here because I don't have the permission of the parties involved.
I'm often asked by others what to do with their Dodges (I guess my truck tends to draw attention
). Those in search of a clutch, get sent to SBC, those needing at auto used to be sent to ATS or DTT, now it's DTT or Suncoast. I respect Tom for what he's done. He had some problems with a major vendor and has decided to stop using thier product. Now, I don't know what was said in his origional post, but if it had been me posting it, it would have been pulled so durn fast as to make your head spin around a full 360 degrees.
Josiah
Well its out there, Briar Hopper will have to take what ever consequences come. This is particularly true if the first published draft was... shall we say... harsher. What I read today made me wince. I wonder what the contract says about confidentiality or denegration of the other party. Even the truth, if stated too plainly and with too much detail, can result in a lot more and lengthy hassle.
Bet Briar Hopper would be "hopping" mad if ATS got on the web site and stated plainly what they thought of him (if its negative).
So... Briar Hopper... what if you had left it at problems with contract interpretation, product quality (which eliminates the need for the piggy back on your reputation comment) and, oh hey, if your past customers have any problems with warranty issues, then they are covered by you.
Suggest, if worded in such a manner, it would have been very difficult for any one to reasonably criticize your comments. Everyone's reputation would have been maintained without any damage, self inflicted or otherwise. In your understandable desire to dissociate yourself from ATS, it appears the manner in which your comments were made have left you open to criticism. Hopefully, it will only be criticism. Would urge you to talk to a lawyer in your jurisdiction, they may have suggstions for you, as others in this thread have had.
Good luck.
Bet Briar Hopper would be "hopping" mad if ATS got on the web site and stated plainly what they thought of him (if its negative).
So... Briar Hopper... what if you had left it at problems with contract interpretation, product quality (which eliminates the need for the piggy back on your reputation comment) and, oh hey, if your past customers have any problems with warranty issues, then they are covered by you.
Suggest, if worded in such a manner, it would have been very difficult for any one to reasonably criticize your comments. Everyone's reputation would have been maintained without any damage, self inflicted or otherwise. In your understandable desire to dissociate yourself from ATS, it appears the manner in which your comments were made have left you open to criticism. Hopefully, it will only be criticism. Would urge you to talk to a lawyer in your jurisdiction, they may have suggstions for you, as others in this thread have had.
Good luck.
Tom,
I know what you did was a difficult decision. It's hard to burn bridges in this industry. Most vendors I talk to aren't willing to do that. I've been told by a very respected vendor to keep my mouth shut (about bringing out the truth) and to "Play the game. " It burns me up when vendors hide the truth from customers for money. You have fought, lied and hid the truth for these guys for a long time. Now because some warranties aren't being paid, you are stabbing them and jumping to another company.
It's hard to fix a bad reputation. I wish you luck though. I believe that as long as you put the customer's best interest as your number one priority and are honest with everyone, you will do well.
Good luck in the future, I hope you are turning over a new leaf.
-Chris
I know what you did was a difficult decision. It's hard to burn bridges in this industry. Most vendors I talk to aren't willing to do that. I've been told by a very respected vendor to keep my mouth shut (about bringing out the truth) and to "Play the game. " It burns me up when vendors hide the truth from customers for money. You have fought, lied and hid the truth for these guys for a long time. Now because some warranties aren't being paid, you are stabbing them and jumping to another company.
It's hard to fix a bad reputation. I wish you luck though. I believe that as long as you put the customer's best interest as your number one priority and are honest with everyone, you will do well.
Good luck in the future, I hope you are turning over a new leaf.
-Chris
Thread Locked
This thread is being locked. If ATS wishes to provide additional detail, however, it will be added.
This is an issue between commercial entities. I assume there are contractual agreements that may affect this situation and are most appropriately handled in a private forum.
Robin
TDR Admin
This thread is being locked. If ATS wishes to provide additional detail, however, it will be added.
This is an issue between commercial entities. I assume there are contractual agreements that may affect this situation and are most appropriately handled in a private forum.
Robin
TDR Admin
ATS reply to Black Mountain Diesel
You can tell a lot about a person in the style of their writing and words they chose to use.
Tom is freely only concerned with and for Tom. By his post he feels all of ATS’s progress is all because of Tom. He is finding out quickly that ‘his good name and his credibility’ does not pay the bills. Tom is currently in debt to ATS.
We have had concerns with Tom (Briar Hopper) dating back before the TDR Rally in Columbus, IN. We were sent emails between him and Cummins Corvette. In these emails he bad mouths ATS and DTT.
The one and only person who has degraded Tom’s name is Tom. He has made promises he cannot keep, and he wants ATS to be responsible for his actions and shortcomings. I also lack to see HOW this possibly can be a ‘horribly expensive education’ when he really hasn’t paid for anything.
There is certainly one thing that continues to amaze me when it comes to people and the things they will write. I was raised with, and stick to, certain values that I feel are very important. One of them is do what you say you are going to do, and don’t make a statement about someone, unless you have your facts correct and the data to back it up. When someone writes something like,
Quote: Tom
‘Due to ATS’s repeated refusal to adhere to the terms of our agreement regarding sales territory and other matters. ’
The verbal agreement between Tom and myself was, any customers that requested to have an ATS transmission or converter installed within a 250-mile radius (surrounding states) would be referred to BMD. Of course, not all people are willing to make the drive or have the time. An immediate problem with BMD was the amount of phone calls that were not being answered because the shop was not open full time. Customers constantly called us back complaining of no or poor customer service. One of the attempts to resolve this was to talk to Tom and Will face to face. Which we did in Muncie, There was some resistance because both were working a full time job and could not dedicate there time to BMD. I was direct and straight forward telling them that if you cannot answer the phone calls during normal business hours there would be a major concern on our end to continue to refer customers to BMD. Things got a little better for a while, and then the customer complaints started to appear again.
I pulled Tom off to the side at the TDR Rally in Columbus. I expressed to him that there were again problems and they needed to be dealt with ASAP. It mostly had to do with the treatment first time customers received on the phone. I was very direct and addressed the facts.
This was taken by Tom as a insult. I did not like being forced to be the one to do this but for my sake and Tom’s it had to be said.
As a business owner I appreciate it when some one from the outside gives me constructive criticism. It may sting a bit, but it is necessary for your growth.
About the warranty, to my knowledge there has been absolutely NO one that has been refused warranty. Although I should have. I will give a brief run down of the actual warranty claims.
1) 95 Dodge that had a bad vibration after install at BMD. Customer calls me upset and needs help. I say ok lets start with the basics of what you are experiencing. Vehicle is delivered from BMD, obviously not being road tested, no pressure test etc. Customer finds vibration to be drive shaft improperly installed; the u-joint caps were not properly fastened into the strap. Later customer has some shifting issues; they are addressed and corrected, at no charge to customer.
2) 95 Dodge with a vibration at idle that turned into bad noise at idle. Customer finds torque converter bolts loose. After tightening bolts and talking with me we determine that the wrong bolts were installed into the converter. Appears to be ok now, we will find out in time about the condition of the flex plate. Again; no extra money out of customers pocket.
3) I do not recall the exact year of this Dodge, same incident. This time a bolt flew out of the converter while the engine was running. As you can imagine, the customer was kind of ****** off. We got him through it and all is good.
4) 94 Dodge gets ATS transmission installed at BMD and goes back to Canada. Has some problems with OD. I approve a shop to look into it for the customer. Shop in Canada could not see any reasons for glazed OD clutches and reassembles transmission. I ask them to do a pressure check. They call me, with the confirmation that the pressure is low, I say good, we found the problem, I ask them to adjust it and they do. Pressure is good now and customer is happy and on his way. At no charge to customer.
Tom; this next part strikes a nerve, which is what your intention was. This is where I would swear if I could. Your Quote from your original post:’ the overwhelming amount of evidence we’ve seen that most of their products are “reverse-engineered”, or copied from other vendors who were the original inventors of products. ’
Ok, I will speculate here??. The Triplelok torque converter, we make one for the Dodge Cummins, Ford Power Stroke and Chevy Duramax. Show me another company that builds them, I can sure tell you that who ever it was we ‘copied’ this converter from hasn’t spent the last two years of their life engineering it until midnight almost every night. The valve body parts have valves machined from raw stock. Our separator plate is laser cut from stainless steel sheet metal, the springs are wound for us by the thousands etc. It would be a lot easier for us to buy a pre-assembled kit, but there is no kit that delivers the performance and the adjustability that we desire. The injectors on the market are good, we felt we could make then a little better, there are only so many things you can do to a turbo. If we are guilty of coping someone’s turbo than so be it. I suppose we also copied the turbo set up on the Duramax also. Oh yeah… no one has done that yet. I will supply some pictures when the kit is done, in the next few days. So, again you will have something to say we ‘copied. ’
ATS is not going anywhere. We are here for our customers and will always be. For our supporters, “THANK YOU”!!!!! We here at ATS applaud you and deeply appreciate your time and dedication. We are who we are because of you and your continual support and positive posts. Thank you for always keeping your post clean, honest, and holding the highest integrity. We are proud to be among the highest caliber of people.
Clint Cannon
Owner and Operator /ATS Diesel Performance
Edited by TDR Admin on 11/17/02.
You can tell a lot about a person in the style of their writing and words they chose to use.
Tom is freely only concerned with and for Tom. By his post he feels all of ATS’s progress is all because of Tom. He is finding out quickly that ‘his good name and his credibility’ does not pay the bills. Tom is currently in debt to ATS.
We have had concerns with Tom (Briar Hopper) dating back before the TDR Rally in Columbus, IN. We were sent emails between him and Cummins Corvette. In these emails he bad mouths ATS and DTT.
The one and only person who has degraded Tom’s name is Tom. He has made promises he cannot keep, and he wants ATS to be responsible for his actions and shortcomings. I also lack to see HOW this possibly can be a ‘horribly expensive education’ when he really hasn’t paid for anything.
There is certainly one thing that continues to amaze me when it comes to people and the things they will write. I was raised with, and stick to, certain values that I feel are very important. One of them is do what you say you are going to do, and don’t make a statement about someone, unless you have your facts correct and the data to back it up. When someone writes something like,
Quote: Tom
‘Due to ATS’s repeated refusal to adhere to the terms of our agreement regarding sales territory and other matters. ’
The verbal agreement between Tom and myself was, any customers that requested to have an ATS transmission or converter installed within a 250-mile radius (surrounding states) would be referred to BMD. Of course, not all people are willing to make the drive or have the time. An immediate problem with BMD was the amount of phone calls that were not being answered because the shop was not open full time. Customers constantly called us back complaining of no or poor customer service. One of the attempts to resolve this was to talk to Tom and Will face to face. Which we did in Muncie, There was some resistance because both were working a full time job and could not dedicate there time to BMD. I was direct and straight forward telling them that if you cannot answer the phone calls during normal business hours there would be a major concern on our end to continue to refer customers to BMD. Things got a little better for a while, and then the customer complaints started to appear again.
I pulled Tom off to the side at the TDR Rally in Columbus. I expressed to him that there were again problems and they needed to be dealt with ASAP. It mostly had to do with the treatment first time customers received on the phone. I was very direct and addressed the facts.
This was taken by Tom as a insult. I did not like being forced to be the one to do this but for my sake and Tom’s it had to be said.
As a business owner I appreciate it when some one from the outside gives me constructive criticism. It may sting a bit, but it is necessary for your growth.
About the warranty, to my knowledge there has been absolutely NO one that has been refused warranty. Although I should have. I will give a brief run down of the actual warranty claims.
1) 95 Dodge that had a bad vibration after install at BMD. Customer calls me upset and needs help. I say ok lets start with the basics of what you are experiencing. Vehicle is delivered from BMD, obviously not being road tested, no pressure test etc. Customer finds vibration to be drive shaft improperly installed; the u-joint caps were not properly fastened into the strap. Later customer has some shifting issues; they are addressed and corrected, at no charge to customer.
2) 95 Dodge with a vibration at idle that turned into bad noise at idle. Customer finds torque converter bolts loose. After tightening bolts and talking with me we determine that the wrong bolts were installed into the converter. Appears to be ok now, we will find out in time about the condition of the flex plate. Again; no extra money out of customers pocket.
3) I do not recall the exact year of this Dodge, same incident. This time a bolt flew out of the converter while the engine was running. As you can imagine, the customer was kind of ****** off. We got him through it and all is good.
4) 94 Dodge gets ATS transmission installed at BMD and goes back to Canada. Has some problems with OD. I approve a shop to look into it for the customer. Shop in Canada could not see any reasons for glazed OD clutches and reassembles transmission. I ask them to do a pressure check. They call me, with the confirmation that the pressure is low, I say good, we found the problem, I ask them to adjust it and they do. Pressure is good now and customer is happy and on his way. At no charge to customer.
Tom; this next part strikes a nerve, which is what your intention was. This is where I would swear if I could. Your Quote from your original post:’ the overwhelming amount of evidence we’ve seen that most of their products are “reverse-engineered”, or copied from other vendors who were the original inventors of products. ’
Ok, I will speculate here??. The Triplelok torque converter, we make one for the Dodge Cummins, Ford Power Stroke and Chevy Duramax. Show me another company that builds them, I can sure tell you that who ever it was we ‘copied’ this converter from hasn’t spent the last two years of their life engineering it until midnight almost every night. The valve body parts have valves machined from raw stock. Our separator plate is laser cut from stainless steel sheet metal, the springs are wound for us by the thousands etc. It would be a lot easier for us to buy a pre-assembled kit, but there is no kit that delivers the performance and the adjustability that we desire. The injectors on the market are good, we felt we could make then a little better, there are only so many things you can do to a turbo. If we are guilty of coping someone’s turbo than so be it. I suppose we also copied the turbo set up on the Duramax also. Oh yeah… no one has done that yet. I will supply some pictures when the kit is done, in the next few days. So, again you will have something to say we ‘copied. ’
ATS is not going anywhere. We are here for our customers and will always be. For our supporters, “THANK YOU”!!!!! We here at ATS applaud you and deeply appreciate your time and dedication. We are who we are because of you and your continual support and positive posts. Thank you for always keeping your post clean, honest, and holding the highest integrity. We are proud to be among the highest caliber of people.
Clint Cannon
Owner and Operator /ATS Diesel Performance
Edited by TDR Admin on 11/17/02.
Thread Closed
Thread closed. Each party has had a chance to post their position, and each party's posts have been significantly edited. The exchange does not serve either organization well.
It was inappropriate for this business-to-business dispute to have erupted on this forum. We recognize the need to avoid censorship whenever possible, but enough is enough. This is not the proper forum to resolve business-to-business differences.
Users, please refrain from starting any new threads regarding this exchange. They serve no productive purpose, and they will be deleted.
Thank you, in advance, for your support and understanding.
Robin
TDR Admin
Thread closed. Each party has had a chance to post their position, and each party's posts have been significantly edited. The exchange does not serve either organization well.
It was inappropriate for this business-to-business dispute to have erupted on this forum. We recognize the need to avoid censorship whenever possible, but enough is enough. This is not the proper forum to resolve business-to-business differences.
Users, please refrain from starting any new threads regarding this exchange. They serve no productive purpose, and they will be deleted.
Thank you, in advance, for your support and understanding.
Robin
TDR Admin
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
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What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
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