ATS manifold cap screws keep backing out

[pgleavitt]

Glad I came across this thread. Just getting ready to installing a ATS manifold and want to make sure I don't screw it up. Could you please list all the parts and sizes needed to complete the job. Also sources would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.



Pete

 

[mcdaniel1]

Hey Bob:

Have been following this thread with interest. Sounds like you have a great solution to a nagging problem.



I have picked through the posts and tried to put together a list of materials with sources that you used. To be sure that I have a complete list and for others benefit, would you be willing to post a "final" list of components along with the sources/contact info?



Very good post and thank you for sharing your hard earned info.



Tom



On edit: Looks like I am not the only one wishing to know. Pete and I posted at the same time.

 

[RustyJC]

Bob,



Looks like a business opportunity! Package an ATS manifold super-trick fastener kit! We'll talk about royalties later. :-laf



Rusty

 

[pgleavitt]

Build it and they will buy it. At least I will. The older I get the less I like to do it more than once. I also find that I read directions a little more carefully now. Go with what works. Thanks

 

[rweis]

I'm RV'ing this weekend, but will put together an info list next week.



Bob Weis

 

[pgleavitt]

TTT

 

[fishjack1]

I am going to order an ATS manifold for my '96 - do the 12v engines need to be installed in this manner? Or will the hardware that comes with the manifold suffice?

 

[jcbrown]

Source's...

ATS 3-Piece Exhaust Manifold/Mounted with

• Two M10 X 52mm Stud's

• Six A10-X Belleville Spring Washers

• Two M10 X 1. 5 Drake Lock Nuts (Nut Torque 17'#/Lock Nut Torque 12'#)

• Ten NL-4 Vibration Proof Fasteners

• 10 Factory OEM Metal Sleeves (Torque 32'#),

• Ten M10 X 80mm Hex Head Cap Screws (with additional spacer washers)



Same yourself some money and reuse OEM metal sleeves.



Oo.

 

[rweis]

I agree with JCBrown.



He has a better way than I did. I replaced all studs and fasteners. He only replaced 2 OEM bolts with studs, MUCH less expensive.



His list is better than mine from a cost standpoint.



I am going to leave mine the way I have it as it does what I want (holds torque perfectly, THANKS RustyJC), but future endeavors ought to evaluate both ways. Cost is CERTAINLY less his way by several hundred dollars.



Iteration number 2 (his) is an improvement on iteration number 1 (mine).



Bob Weis

 

[tom sweeney]

i used "blue" Loc-Tite on my cap screws... haven't had a problem since... . over 60k miles ago... . good luck..... tom

 

[Ron Bissett]

You could use a old trick of taping the threads with a chisel just a small tap along the threads not to deep and using a anti-seize on the male thread . Ron Bissett in Metro Louisville KY

 

[Mad Bomber]

ATS 3-Piece Exhaust Manifold/Mounted with

• Two M10 X 52mm Stud's

• Six A10-X Belleville Spring Washers

• Two M10 X 1. 5 Drake Lock Nuts (Nut Torque 17'#/Lock Nut Torque 12'#)

• Ten NL-4 Vibration Proof Fasteners

• 10 Factory OEM Metal Sleeves (Torque 32'#),

• Ten M10 X 80mm Hex Head Cap Screws (with additional spacer washers)



Same yourself some money and reuse OEM metal sleeves.



Oo.

Has there been any better way to keep them bolts from backing out of ATS? How are they doing now a year later?

 

[rweis]

Works Perfect!



I have 10 sets of the studs/stainless steel sacrificial washer/belleville washers/stainless steel sacrificial washer/Drake lock nuts left.



You use two sets of these on top #3 #4 and the OEM bolts/sleeves/TSB stainless steel bolt keepers on the other 10 positions.



That is the answer. It works, and I recheck mine every 6 months or so and nothing has even slightly changed torque.



If you want a couple of the studs/etc/etc/etc sets I will sell you them at my cost 2 years ago. $45 per set (plus shipping cheapest way to get to you. generally USPS ground about $3 total), 2 sets needed, 10 sets remaining.



Again I want to thank RustyJC for helping me solve the problem from the mechanical engineering standpoint. Without RustyJC's help it could not be done.



Bob Weis

 

[RAndrae]

The Fix

Here is the fix, all these pages for such a simple fix. REID tool= posi lock washers. I used them and have NEVER toched the bolts again.

 

[rweis]

Well, the washers might not back out but what about the elastic / plastic characteristics of the studs / cap bolts? What is the prestress on your cap bolts? At what torque? Are you beyond the elastic limit? How are you allowing for the 3mm growth of the manifold and staying within the plastic limit of the fastener? and still fit within the top #3 #4 physical limits?



The locking Drake Nuts are only a small fraction of the fastener system. Maintaining the torque (holding force) of the manifold is the important part. Why do you think DC put such a long bolt and such a heavy sleeve as OEM? Because it can stay elastic with 3mm growth and maintain torque because of its length and sleeve.



The problem with the ATS is the top #3 #4 not allowing a long bolt and sleeve. The shorter the bolt the less total growth length it can stand and stay elastic. That is why the Belleville washers, that is what they do, that is what they are designed to do. The top #3 #4 limit the length of the holding bolt to about 52mm. With a 52mm length, a bolt can not stretch and shrink 3mm and stay elastic (ie hold torque when cool as well as hot). The lock nut is whatever you want to use. The Drake is a good lock nut, but not the only one for sure. However, the Belleville washers is what allows the 3mm growth and shrink and still maintain torque.



The stainless steel washers just don't let the Belleville washers cut into your manilfold boss. Of course if you do not care about the Belleville washers cutting into the ATS manifold boss, do not use them.



I would really like to know what system you have to attach the ATS manifold, maintain torque, NOT go into plastic conditions on the fastener, and fit within the confines of top #3 #4.



I did not go this route because it was easy. It turned out to be significantly more involved than I would have ever thought. However I tried every thing I could think of before I went the Belleville route.



Good luck,



Bob Weis

 

[rivercat]

Another problem solved and another satisfied customer. Thanks TDR, meeting-place of Genius