Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Auto input shaft ? - when needed?

[DavidTD]

Keep in mind shafts don't break at a given HP level. They break at a given point of stress. How that stress is applied will determine it's limits.



I run a billet input shaft (thanks Joe). Until this transmission, I had none. I also have never broken a shaft. (Now watch, I will today)



Depending on how you race/use your truck and how much you try to get out of each hp to the track IMO answers the question. Heavier trucks are harder on them. A 4wd launch is harder on them. Locking the converter early is harder on them. Tighter converters can be harder on them too but in some cases, easier on them.



I run a 7000 lb 2500 4x4 with 33" tires. I run 4wd, usually launch with no less than 20psi. I don't lock my converter until I reach 3rd gear, I run a stall of about 1900 rpm and it has lived so far at 550hp and high 12 second passes. With stock shafts I ran 13's, same set-up and routine except for 265's and 430-450hp. I have launched many times at 30 psi on stock shafts and not had to pay the price. Would I recommend it? No.



I bet if I started locking in 2nd gear I break one of my non billet shafts in 3 passes. If I run a tighter converter and build the same boost I'll break it too. In other words, I have decided to give up some ET for this HP level to maintain reliability.



Just something to think about.

 

[I-6DZL]

Anybody can build a stock trans to hold the stock power of a cummins, with a manual and some tools. I'm also a tech, but wouldn't even come close to hopping my transmission up to the point of holding 500 plus horse power. Now mind you it's not the HP that hurts the trans/power train it's the 1000 plus LB/FT of torque that is a product of the 500 plus horses. Whole 'nother debate, but i think you catch my drift.



If you want to know all of the trade secrets like the rest of us would love to, catch a plane to your favorite trans company for training.



The reason people pay for Greg's (and other trained individuals) knowledge isn't because they're lazy or dumb. It's simply because he know's the secrets, he knows what he's doing, and best of all they WILL NOT have to worry about the transmission the next time they hook the fiver and haul *** up the rockies. Its just a simple piece of mind that gets put to rest.



After all it is only money, hard to come by, and easy to spit out.



Curtis



As far as transmission pressures why would you want to have a party for that ? What is that going to tell you ? Hp/Tq differences call for different pressures. Right, Wrong ?

 

[JoshPeters]

OK I hope I can shed some light here... . there is alot going in this thread, so feel free to PM me. I would rebuild the trans yourself. It's not hard. The only thing to be VERY careful of is the MASSIVE spring in the Overdrive section. You need a special tool and a shop press with quite a bit of travel to dissassemble it. Outside of that, it's a pretty simple transmission. A good manual (ATSG) is ALWAYS a help. You can get them for around $15. That book will give you an overview of the trans, but is not Diesel Specific.



My Recommendation..... Don't you want a fuse? If you put billit shafts in all the way through... . what gives next? I'd recommend the Billit input and intermediate shafts. They are the most difficult to replace and can do the most damage. I've been told IF an intermediate shaft goes..... you may as well buy a new trans. Input... well that can surely mess up the converter. Output... . well that's less parts and the best of all..... you can leave the front 2/3's of the transmission in the truck. drop the T-case and pull the OD section... press... remove snap rings... remove shaft... . install new shaft... and go.



As everyone has said, all the companies have their secrets. Give them ALL a call, tell them what you want to do... . and see what kind of information you get. You might be supprised at a couple of them.



Josh

 

[Partyat33]

Josh, thats exactly the kind of info I am looking for. !!!

 

[JoshPeters]

There is another Thread I posted a while back about the basic function of these trannys... . I'll try to find it and post a link.



Josh

Edit:Here's the link

http://www.tdr1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126758

 

[Cooker]

Enough ranting - can anyone give me a stock pressure # and a "good" pressure # off the test port so I at least know where I'm at?

What pressures are you looking for? What test port do you want the information from?

 

[6btsmoker]

sonnax ind. here in vermont does make a one piece input shaft part#22121B-01. list price is about $900. 00.

 

[bluthndr]

OK I hope I can shed some light here... . there is alot going in this thread, so feel free to PM me. I would rebuild the trans yourself. It's not hard. The only thing to be VERY careful of is the MASSIVE spring in the Overdrive section. You need a special tool and a shop press with quite a bit of travel to dissassemble it. Outside of that, it's a pretty simple transmission. A good manual (ATSG) is ALWAYS a help. You can get them for around $15. That book will give you an overview of the trans, but is not Diesel Specific.



Josh

Good point about the output shaft. I have the Chrysler service manuals for my truck, and I've had one of these trannies apart 3 or 4 times (never mine). I know a guy I can borrow the spring tool from when the time comes for the OD.



Finally something from a guy on here who has done it and has nothing to hide & no vested interest in it!



I will stop being lazy and run through the manual in the next week or so & check my pressures.

 

[Lsfarm]

Sarcasm, but THINK about it

I just emailed Marco and told him he needs to post the software he uses to reprogram the ECM's to make his 'catcher' ecm's, I mean why is he hiding it? there HAS to be an easy cheap circuit board available at RadioShack that just about anyone can buy and solder up a cheap replacement for Marco's ECM. We on the TDR have a RIGHT to have this info for FREE!!



Then I thought about it, and decided to email EDGE, TST, TS, and a few others and accuse them too of hiding the 'SECRETS' that the TDR members demand that they fork over and stop expecting to get reimbursed for their reasearch and developement efforts and expense. There is for-sure a $. 75 board with a few resistors, capacitors and an IC or two that are off the shelf items that can be made into a comp box, boost fooler and make some serious HP on the cheap!!



And to think they charge over $500 for these items. And when they post the circuitry and it doesn't work for me I EXPECT them to spend hours on their 1-800 # explaining what I did wrong with the free information they gave out. !!!



I did none of the above but some people seem to think that being on an internet board gives them some right to free information that costs a lot of people a lot of money. And without thinking or careing that maybe this is their income that pays their bills!!



Just think about it, there are hundreds or maybe thousands of jobs or projects that can be done on our trucks by the part-time tech, or even the full time tech.



Hey I paid my local transmission shop to overhaul the auto trans in my minivan because I knew I didn't want to go through the uphill learning curve to find all the 'SECRETS' about that trans which I'm sure the shop would have 'hid' from me if I had asked for help from them. I couldn't bring myself down to that level, I just paid them for the job and got a warrantee to go with it. R&R a trans a second or third time to find out some 'trick' about that particular trans?? NOT ME!! I'd rather sit by the lake with my dog and watch the sunrise.



And of course I wouldn't ask them for help 'cause I would be taking up their time and taking money out of their pocket and bread of their table. I am better off spending my time on the power upgrades, DTT transmissions and making my specialty products for our trucks.



Another example: Will I spend the hours detailing my truck if I ever decide to do that project. ? NO!! there are lots of shops that specialize in just that and for a few $100's I can get a great job done while I'm doing something more productive.



Expecting or demanding people to give out their techniques and methods and not recognizing that those are their livelyhood is just wrong.



Back to work, Greg L

 

[I-6DZL]

Kinda makes ya stop and think what we (the TDR folks) actually do have. Alot of free info that could and would have cost us big time if we ACTUALLY did have to do the work 2 to 4 more times in order to get it right.



I side whole-heartedly with Greg. There's a cheap way that takes the bread off the table of the founder. Now the polite way, help the founder put bread on the table and help him find more ways to make something better.



Greg what's work ??

Back to doing what i was doing before i forgot what i was doing.

Curtis

 

[zstroken]

You don't even need the tool to redo the overdrive section. You just need to make sure your careful. We used some steel stock on each side, press it down, stick a screwdriver or pick in there and release the snap rings, then release the press. I have done it about 3 times(once was cause i let the splines turn before I compressed it). I chose to run all three billet shafts. I am hoping my u joints are going to be my fuses.

 

[6btsmoker]

for info you might want to check out www.transmissioncenter.net/dodgehtm some very cool , and expensive , parts.

 

[JoshPeters]

OK... . I personally don't think 90% of the people on this Forum would even dream of rebuilding their transmission on their own. For the 10% that would... . more power to them! Ya know what... If EDGE DID post the circutry of their Comp box. . How many of us could honestly build one? Where would you get the connectors? Where would you get the pin bushings... you see where I'm going... I personally dont' care if you give out your "secrets" or not. I understand that's how you make a living, but here's a question for ya.....



Are you ever at a ball game and get someone to ask "Hey you work on Trucks... My truck is doing... ... " and answer them? Do you honestly thing they are going to fix it on their own or do you think they will bring it in? I get this all the time. Do I end up fixing most of them... yes I do. Do we expect you to "give away" these DTT secrets... . nope. He's asking for tricks of the trade. You may not want to tackle your mini-van trans. That's understandable. If you DID want to... and went to a local trans shop and asked for advise on things to watch for... they'd tell you..... at least they do here in MN. Are they gonna tell you exactly how to do it? No.



I feel the TDR is a great bunch of guys. Some are Very knowledgeable. Some aren't..... yet. Some are willing to put fuel in their truck, some are willing to rebuild the engine and transmission. I feel that being one of the more knowledgable people on here, I should answer the questions that I can. I'm not making any money off this either. I turn wrenches for a living. I have TDR meets in my back yard... bring tools home for those people to use... and end up working on their trucks... Do I ask for a penny... no. Do I want anything..... Just the smile of a happy TDR member.



*steps off the soapbox*

Josh

 

[bluthndr]

I just emailed Marco and told him he needs to post the software he uses to reprogram the ECM's to make his 'catcher' ecm's, I mean why is he hiding it? there HAS to be an easy cheap circuit board available at RadioShack that just about anyone can buy and solder up a cheap replacement for Marco's ECM. We on the TDR have a RIGHT to have this info for FREE!!



Then I thought about it, and decided to email EDGE, TST, TS, and a few others and accuse them too of hiding the 'SECRETS' that the TDR members demand that they fork over and stop expecting to get reimbursed for their reasearch and developement efforts and expense. There is for-sure a $. 75 board with a few resistors, capacitors and an IC or two that are off the shelf items that can be made into a comp box, boost fooler and make some serious HP on the cheap!!



And to think they charge over $500 for these items. And when they post the circuitry and it doesn't work for me I EXPECT them to spend hours on their 1-800 # explaining what I did wrong with the free information they gave out. !!!



I did none of the above but some people seem to think that being on an internet board gives them some right to free information that costs a lot of people a lot of money. And without thinking or careing that maybe this is their income that pays their bills!!



Hey I paid my local transmission shop to overhaul the auto trans in my minivan because I knew I didn't want to go through the uphill learning curve to find all the 'SECRETS' about that trans which I'm sure the shop would have 'hid' from me if I had asked for help from them. I couldn't bring myself down to that level, I just paid them for the job and got a warrantee to go with it. R&R a trans a second or third time to find out some 'trick' about that particular trans?? NOT ME!! I'd rather sit by the lake with my dog and watch the sunrise.



Expecting or demanding people to give out their techniques and methods and not recognizing that those are their livelyhood is just wrong.



Back to work, Greg L

FWIW I do agree with Greg on that aspect of it. I don't think anyone deserves to get proprietary trade secret info that someone took their time (and resources) to develop. There is nothing wrong with anyone that does have a vested interest in this keeping to themselves. I also think (actually know from experience and witnessed first hand on several occasions) that Greg and others like him will build a far more durable trans than just assembling parts from a diesel trans shop.



I personally know a Chrysler dealer trans tech that builds Chrysler trannies all day long (including diesel truck trans), and then comes home to his own shop, buys the parts from a hi-perf diesel trans shop, and builds them for hot-rodded diesel guys, and most go only about 6 months or so. What Greg and others know about these transmissions IS worth extra money.



If you're a guy like me who has $40K in tools, a hoist, a spare vehicle, and an appetite for learning the hard way, it doesn't seem so bad, but for anyone out there not in my situation, you are money, time, and headache WAY ahead to just pay one of the pro trans shops to do it. For every time I have heard of one successful (any kind) auto trans rebuild "by a friend" that is not a professional trans guy, there are ten of them that are junk in a month - no exaggeration. Buying 2 convertors, and 3 rebuild kits + 2-3 weeks without your truck is not worth it, and will save you no $.



*While I'm at it, know that I have successfully rebuilt auto transmissions, engines, swapped engines, (performance and normal), and most everthing else you can do to a car (or truck) with the exception of bodywork. If I thought I could pull it off 'cause I change my own oil, or even do lift kits, wire stereos, install alarms, etc. I would be in for a rude awakening. Building engines and trannies that will go the distance (not just to a dragway or mud run and back) is like open heart surgery - it all needs to be CLEAN and very precise - down to the thousandth of an inch. Putting just one bearing in upside down (yes, most of them will fit and roll both ways when assembling and even look "right") will junk your trans in the first 1000 miles, strand you, and cost you thousands more $. As an instructor of mine once said "It's not rocket science, it's actually much, much harder. "

 

[JoshPeters]

Amen Bluthndr



Greg... I hope you don't take what I had to say with a grain of salt..... I just try to stick up for the few of us who can build... . in this case... . a transmission.



Greg... if your at IRP this year... . Let me know... I'll buy ya a beer!



Josh

 

[Lsfarm]

I'll take ya up on that

I have no hard feelings at all Josh, and I'll take a CC and Seven thanks! LOL I'll have a booth at IRP selling Ride-control Bars [traction bars] Stack kits, and various other items. I will of course be there to talk transmissions and demo drive my truck [the transmission] if I can get it out of the consession area during the day.



If you check with a few of the local TDR guys you will find that I too have minor 'bombing' sessions and have had many a KDP fix session here in my shop where I just supervise and hand out tools and laugh at their dirty hands while I watch.



I freely give out advice, loan parts, tools and my hoist for someone who I can meet and shake hands with. Have done it many times and have met/made many good friends in the process.



But I do have a problem with posting on a public internet site some of these ideas and so-called secrets and techniques for proprietary parts, tools and fixes. I gave my word that I wouldn't and I keep my word.



Now for helping someone with the KDP fix I'll give out my phone number via PM and help in any way I can. I shudder at the thought of someone getting caught by the KDP. I will get on my soapbox over something as simple as tabbing or peening the KDP. It is real hard to mess up putting the KDP to rest. But it is very easy to mess up rebuilding a trans and leave yourself on the side of the road with a really big towing and/or repair bill.



I have also been known to photo transmission or other parts, email detailed instructions and all but hold the hand of someone in a bind with a trans, fuel pump, injector install, pump timing or whatever.



I know some of my comments on this thread could be taken as if I stand at the door of my shop with my hand out, but that just isn't true.



Anyway take care, and I'll see you at IRP. I'll be there Friday and Saturday, but not on Sunday.



Greg L

 

[bluthndr]

But it is very easy to mess up rebuilding a trans and leave yourself on the side of the road with a really big towing and/or repair bill.

VERY Easy.

 

[JO'Leary]

Originally Posted by Lsfarm

But it is very easy to mess up rebuilding a trans and leave yourself on the side of the road with a really big towing and/or repair bill.



Very Very easy :{

 

[I-6DZL]

Joe are have you found out the hard way ??? please say NO



bluthndr good luck, and have fun (that's the main part)



Curtis

 

[bluthndr]

For what it's worth, my trans (with brand new stock diesel convertor and Transgo kit) held up fine (at those dyno #'s) until the 191 DVs were put in. I am closer to 360-370 now I am told... Still shifts good & firm but the lockup clutch is junk. I babied it for about 6 months but now it's completely gone and the temp just climbs going down the freeway.



Just wanted to share my experience - that my trans was ok for light duty towing and driving around with 320 RWHP with a shift kit and convertor in good shape - until I "needed" more...