Automatics Are Better ???????

[bmoeller]

built like the allison 6060 but on a smaller scale. 6 speeds fwd, 2 reverse. hydraulic retarder built in [hydraulic retarder is stronger than any engine or exhaust brake can ever be] with a good lockup torque converter

Sure the hydraulic retarder makes more braking horsepower than an exhaust or compression brake, but it heats the heck out of the oil. IIRC, Cat had used some, and you could only use them for about 10 seconds at a time, before the oil got to hot.



My Goerend transmission is great, but I still prefer a hand shaker.

 

[tgee]

Auto trannys shift quick, not much loss of turbo boost in between gears. Makes for a quick getaway from a stop light. Most people will say thier stick will get better fuel mileage compared to an auto. Manuals dont add any heat to an engine. Manuals don't require as much service ( oil changes, band adjustments, et'c ). Most vehicles, including heavy duty ones with big Allisons, are typically rated lower torque ratings than manuals. Most fleets over the years favor autos over manuals because clutches get torn up too much. If I had the money, I'd pitch my 47RE in favor of a NV5600 in a heartbeat.

 

[DieselMinded]

So Autos Plus'es...



Shift By There Self

dont lose momentum between gears

shift faster

more capable of pulling heavy loads



Manuals Plus'es



More Fun

Sounds Better

More Control



I would like to have both



:>



DM

 

[tgee]

Not sure of the " capable of pulling heavy loads " thing.

 

[rbattelle]

My $0.02

My biggest complaint with the automatic is it's inability to anticipate terrain changes. It can't "see" the hill I'm about to start up, so it doesn't know it should downshift. Instead, it gradually bogs down the engine losing speed. Eventually, I notice what's happening (1/2 way up the hill), and give it some more throttle. Then it shifts up one full gear and away we go, off to the races! Now I'm gaining speed quick and I've got to back off the throttle... but not too much, or it'll shift back up a gear and I'll start losing momentum. Sheesh, all I wanted to do was maintain speed and here I am swinging +/- 10 MPH.



In the manual, I see the hill, select the appropriate gear, and maintain speed. No fluid "brain" second-guessing my decisions. If I give it more throttle, it just bites harder; it doesn't decide to change gears all of a sudden and force me to correct.



Driving an automatic is like taking the dog for a walk and letting him lead. Sure, you don't have to pay attention to anything, but chances are the dog's going to take you somewhere you didn't intend to go.



-Ryan

 

[WadePatton]

Yes, automatics are superior--partially.



They are faster at the dragstrip and sometimes the best thing for a puller. A+ for competition use.



BUT DAMNED if I WANT ONE EVERYDAY. I've tried it. I put over 30,000 miles on my "puller"--which is now near 450hp--and a fancy name-brand auto.



I don't like driving an auto. Ever. Even though the auto I've been driving is so good that I chuckle and laugh everytime I drive a stock 47RH, it cannot figure out which gear I want. It's never in the proper gear NOW!. It's always takes coaxing and coddling and pushing buttons and switches. If you're lucky a tickle with the toe will select the gear you want--but then it's a speculation.



Also, you rarely hear stick owners complaining about the clutch being so tight that you can't get it spooled up. :-laf



GEARBox= stomp/flick/unstomp--slow but effective.

SlushBox= fast/indirect selection.



I'm converting my slushbucket to STICK.

 

[JoshPeters]

i could have swore that had diesel/electric drive on it... ???



edit: it is diesel electric...



"The Crawler/Transporter is powered by 16 traction motors powered by four 1,000 kw generators, driven by two 2,750hp diesel engines. "



edit II:



the diesels are v16 alco diesels.



#ad

I stand corrected. I was told that it was done by automatic transmissions.



Josh

 

[klenger]

I need to revote. Why can't I, they do in Chicago?

 

[klaybus]

AT vs 6 Speed

The Auto is great for my commuting but when I'm pulling I would rather have the 6 speed! They both have their place I guess... ... .

 

[ramtifosi]

Autos are what they put in rental trucks, for non truck drivers.

 

[Grizzly]

At least until you spend ALL day driving around Albuquerque.

Then you will "Pray to the Auto-God".

No, that's not at all true. I like driving through Albuquerque going through all the gears. All my trucks have been sticks and I will continue with sticks as long as both legs work for me. If one has problems with knees or are amputee, okay than an auto is the best choice. :-{}

 

[Grizzly]

My biggest complaint with the automatic is it's inability to anticipate terrain changes. It can't "see" the hill I'm about to start up, so it doesn't know it should downshift. Instead, it gradually bogs down the engine losing speed. Eventually, I notice what's happening (1/2 way up the hill), and give it some more throttle. Then it shifts up one full gear and away we go, off to the races! Now I'm gaining speed quick and I've got to back off the throttle... but not too much, or it'll shift back up a gear and I'll start losing momentum. Sheesh, all I wanted to do was maintain speed and here I am swinging +/- 10 MPH.



In the manual, I see the hill, select the appropriate gear, and maintain speed. No fluid "brain" second-guessing my decisions. If I give it more throttle, it just bites harder; it doesn't decide to change gears all of a sudden and force me to correct.



Driving an automatic is like taking the dog for a walk and letting him lead. Sure, you don't have to pay attention to anything, but chances are the dog's going to take you somewhere you didn't intend to go.



-Ryan

Well said. I like the dog taking the lead part.

 

[nickleinonen]

and you could only use them for about 10 seconds at a time, before the oil got to hot.

nothing a large cooling unit couldn't take care of, and in a relitively light pickup truck/trailer [30k lbs], it would be ok [and the retarder is variable so you could use the ecm to control the retarding by monitering temptrature of the oil]. and design it to run on standard hydraulic oil which is cheaper than atf and just regular serviceing of it.

 

[Hohn]

A six speed stick is always better than an auto any day of the week. You that like your auto, enjoy them and their costly repairs and those of us that like our stick will laugh all the way to the bank.

Generalizations like this are pretty ignorant. There are many cases when an automatic would be superior.



As for the lead post, EVERY SINGLE THING about it is correct. The cushioning effect, the tq multiplication, etc.



I personally selected the 6-speed because:

1) I wanted as many gears as possible with the diesel's narrow RPM range

2) I wanted to bomb and not spend a bunch of money on a trans to hold the power. This was the single biggest reason I chose the 6-speed.

3) The 5600 is a very strong transmission

4) In my usage, the 6-speed would delivery better mpg and lower overall cost





There are weak autos and strong autos, just like there are weak and strong manual trannies. They aren't weak or strong BECAUSE they are manual or automatic, however.



Planetary gears ARE stronger and more efficient. Gee, I wonder why race "manual" trannies like Lencos use planetary gears?



Automatics can also increase productivity in applications like mining where you have HEAVY equipment that has to make a lot of starts and stops. The times spent shifting adds up FAST over an 8-hr shift, and autos will make a business more money.



Same thing in a tractor/trailer that makes frequent stops. The manual trannys really work best on the open hwy.



I love my six-speed, and I feel it's the best transmission ever offered in a Dodge pickup.



But if a person can't recognize how an automatic is superior in certain cases, then they need a little more education.



JMO as a gear rower.

 

[DieselMinded]

As for the lead post, EVERY SINGLE THING about it is correct. The cushioning effect, the tq multiplication, etc.

Thanks I didnt mean to start a transmission battle ... ..... I suppose my Shock Title to lure people in is a bit over board ... . but it does have ???? and not !!!!! ... . :>



I was wanting reenforcing opinions/facts that the statement was true.



As its hard to convince another that an automatic transmission is better for pulling heavy loads ..... me only haveing the facts of the qouted statement in my first post I wanted to be sure I was correct .



Many dont beleave it at all and I try my best to qoute it and even thought about printing it out and keeping it so when somebody starts smack talking my Auto or as I call it my Torque Flight :> Im ready for it.



DM

 

[DieselMinded]

Here is the artical in its entirety



Auto Transmissions Explained



There seems to be quite a few problems with the Dodge transmission behind the diesel and I hope that this information will help with understanding the nature of the beast.



1. The transmission that is found behind the 5. 9 Cummins is basically a “A727” transmission with an overdrive unit in the tail housing. There have been numerous designs that up the torque and horsepower ratings of these transmissions, but this is the basic design. The A727 was a “bullet proof” transmission from the mid 1960’s through the 1980’s and beyond. When they added the overdrive unit on, many transmission rebuilders say the unit does not get enough lubrication.

2. Automatics require 2 oil supplies. The first obvious supply is pressurized oil for the clutch applications. The second supply is the lubrication oil that keeps the bearings, bushings, and clutch plates wet. Lose either on, and the transmission burns up. These oil supplies are controlled by the transmission valve body and the oil filter. If the oil filter starts getting restricted, this affects both oil supplies.

3. Believe it or not, a properly operating transmission should not need a oil filter! There really is nothing in the transmission that has to be filtered. No impurities get into the oil and if the clutches are applying correctly, there is almost no wear to them. The only way the filter starts plugging up is because of clutch material, or bushing/metal failures.

4. A real good indication of how well your transmission operates is by looking in the pan. A properly operating transmission should have a clean pan (no metal or clutch material on the bottom of the pan). If you see metal or brass in the pan, the transmission fluid is not lubricating properly. It is becoming too hot and thin. Keep in mind that transmissions can operate at quite a hot temperature (200-300f), with no ill effects providing the oil doesn’t get too thin. The problem with regular ATF is that it is really thin at 200f. You basically have two choices. Either install an auxiliary oil cooler to lower the transmission fluid and provide better lubrication, or switch to synthetic transmission oil or alternative oil such as hydraulic oil instead of ATF. When you think of hydraulic oil in a transmission, it is exactly that. After all, an automatic transmission is operated hydraulically, so it is not so far fetched. I use it in my Dodge instead of an oil cooler, and my pan stays clean 24/7.

5. Diesels can be a little hard on the torque converters. Given a gasoline or a diesel engine, the torque converter has more stress on it behind a diesel. Diesels have a tendency to vibrate and can sometimes shake the converter to pieces. If you are installing a remanufactured, overhauled, or new transmission, put in the best heavy duty converter you can find.

6. When installing a transmission after a previous failure, be sure to flush out the oil cooler and lines real good. Previous debris can come back into a transmission and cause the filter to plug up again, resulting in another failure. It is real good practice to drop the pan and change the transmission filter about a month after the new transmission is installed even if you blow the oil cooler and lines out. Stuff can still work its way back into the new transmission.

7. A good indication of how well your replacement transmission is working is to pull the pan after 6 months or so and look for debris. There really should not be anything in the pan other than transmission fluid. The transmission fluid should be bright red and not dark or discolored. Dark, discolored, or yellow fluid is a real good indication that the fluid is operating too hot.

8. Believe it or not, an automatic transmission can pull extreme loads better than a stick. Three things create these advantages. One, the torque converter provides a smooth fluid coupling that acts a lot like a shock absorber between the engine and drive train. It is good on the drive train and rear ends. 2nd, The torque converter provides an additional gear ratio of about 2. 5-1 for additional gearing beyond the straight 4 or 5 speed stick. 3rd, Planetary gear units can pull heavier loads than a main-shaft and counter gear stick transmission. Each pinion provides 3-4 teeth times 4 or more pinions, for a total of 12 teeth or more for pulling. Keep in mind that that is also in a perfect circle, so load and torque are distributed equally around. The stick transmission on the other hand, with a main-shaft and counter gear, only provides about 2-4 teeth at the most at any one time to transfer the torque and load from the main-shaft to the counter gear. Also extreme loads tend to cause these to separate, that can split a manual transmission case apart. Think about these things the next time you pull something down the road.





(Comments by a diesel and automatic transmission mechanic for over 30 years. )

 

[Sled Dog]

Generalizations like this are pretty ignorant. There are many cases when an automatic would be superior.



As for the lead post, EVERY SINGLE THING about it is correct. The cushioning effect, the tq multiplication, etc.



I personally selected the 6-speed because:

1) I wanted as many gears as possible with the diesel's narrow RPM range

2) I wanted to bomb and not spend a bunch of money on a trans to hold the power. This was the single biggest reason I chose the 6-speed.

3) The 5600 is a very strong transmission

4) In my usage, the 6-speed would delivery better mpg and lower overall cost





There are weak autos and strong autos, just like there are weak and strong manual trannies. They aren't weak or strong BECAUSE they are manual or automatic, however.



Planetary gears ARE stronger and more efficient. Gee, I wonder why race "manual" trannies like Lencos use planetary gears?



Automatics can also increase productivity in applications like mining where you have HEAVY equipment that has to make a lot of starts and stops. The times spent shifting adds up FAST over an 8-hr shift, and autos will make a business more money.



Same thing in a tractor/trailer that makes frequent stops. The manual trannys really work best on the open hwy.



I love my six-speed, and I feel it's the best transmission ever offered in a Dodge pickup.



But if a person can't recognize how an automatic is superior in certain cases, then they need a little more education.



JMO as a gear rower.

Well said, by someone else who know's.

 

[Grizzly]

Generalizations like this are pretty ignorant. There are many cases when an automatic would be superior.



As for the lead post, EVERY SINGLE THING about it is correct. The cushioning effect, the tq multiplication, etc.



I personally selected the 6-speed because:

1) I wanted as many gears as possible with the diesel's narrow RPM range

2) I wanted to bomb and not spend a bunch of money on a trans to hold the power. This was the single biggest reason I chose the 6-speed.

3) The 5600 is a very strong transmission

4) In my usage, the 6-speed would delivery better mpg and lower overall cost





There are weak autos and strong autos, just like there are weak and strong manual trannies. They aren't weak or strong BECAUSE they are manual or automatic, however.



Planetary gears ARE stronger and more efficient. Gee, I wonder why race "manual" trannies like Lencos use planetary gears?



Automatics can also increase productivity in applications like mining where you have HEAVY equipment that has to make a lot of starts and stops. The times spent shifting adds up FAST over an 8-hr shift, and autos will make a business more money.



Same thing in a tractor/trailer that makes frequent stops. The manual trannys really work best on the open hwy.



I love my six-speed, and I feel it's the best transmission ever offered in a Dodge pickup.



But if a person can't recognize how an automatic is superior in certain cases, then they need a little more education.



JMO as a gear rower.

I resent being called ignorant. I am far from ignorant and I am probably far better educated than you are. You really need to watch your mouth, because you have no idea who you are talking to.

 

[JL penner]

I resent being called ignorant. I am far from ignorant and I am probably far better educated than you are. You really need to watch your mouth, because you have no idea who you are talking to.

You gotta admit Grizz, what you said was a bit over the top. I don't think he was calling you ignorant, he was saying that your "generalization" was ignorant. Remove your feelings from your sleeves and tuck them back into your pockets!



That said, I am a manual transmission fan through and through! I agree with what Grizzly said somewhat, that overall, it's cheaper to maintain a stick than it is to maintain an auto. When I get older and I don't feel like shifting anymore, I might switch over to the auto, but for now I like having control of what gear my truck is in!



JL

 

[Hohn]

Well, Grizz, I don't know what to say. You'll note the my post called the statement ignorant. The first clue that this is the case is the presence of the generalization that I quoted. It was quoted specifically to BE the reference to the "ignorant" comment.



I'm sure you *are* highly educated, probably much more so than me. I'll let your words lead people to draw their OWN conclusions as to your education, rather than question it, as you have done mine.





No intentions of ruffling feathers or offending anyone. But if someone is going to make blanket generalizations that are, in fact, untrue-- then I will challenge them to set the record straight.



After all, factuality is what we seek here, right? Don't we want out members to get the best advice possible? How does offering generalizations serve that purpose?



"That's all I have to say about thaaaaaaat"