auxiliary cooler

[Red Rocket]

Hello all,



I have a tractor which runs triple gang flail mowers, and the cooling just barely keeps up on a good day. The first problem I suspect is there is a power steering cooler infront of the radiator, and crap gets stuck between the two, clogging the airflow.



I think I want to relocate that cooler, and I'm thinking to the roof, since I need a new one anyway. Instead of relocate the stock cooler, I found permacool makes a dual circuit cooler.



My question is this. Obviously one loop will cool the steering, but what should I run through the second, would cooling engine oil be a good idea, and would it be nearly as effective as coolant itself. Also, would coolant run out since it's above the height of the radiator? Seems that would run back all the time?



Any input would be appreciated.



nick



Also routing and tapping point input would be great.

 

[rbattelle]

As a dual circuit radiator, is it cooling 2 separate fluids, or is it using one fluid to cool the other? A subtle but very important distinction.

If it's using one fluid to cool the other, then I'd suggest running engine coolant up there. But it will drain out of there, being above the radiator.

If the two fluids are not exchanging heat, then engine oil is always a good choice to cool.

On edit:
Actually, now that I think about it, coolant might not run back out of the exchanger if you mount it above the radiator level. If the radiator cap seals the overflow bottle pretty well, and there's no air in the system, the coolant that runs up to the roof may stay up there pretty well. I can't say for sure, though.

Ryan

 

[Red Rocket]

But how will I even fill it if I do hook it to the raidator? Park it on a really really steep hill?



The cooler is just two combined into one, they don't exchange any heat.

 

[Red Rocket]

Also, if I do run oil through it, where would I return it? Dipstick tube or tapping the valve cover are the only spots that come to mind.

 

[rbattelle]

To fill it, I assumed you would merely remove one of the cooler lines and fill there using a funnel.

Oil would need to be returned to the pan, although you could return it to the oil cap (drill a hole in the top of it).

Maybe the best idea is to just plumb the power steering fluid through BOTH circuits in the cooler. A double-pass arrangement. No sense making a lot of complicated plumbing.

Simplest is usually best.

Ryan

 

[PToombs]

If you do want to run engine coolant to the roof, get T taps like they use for engine flushes. Mount these at the cooler. Then you can use a radiator pressure tester to push the fluid up there. Just open the caps to bleed it. I did this on my buddies skid steer for the cab heater. Granted, I'm only pushing up about 3 feet, but it works good.

You could fill thru the taps also, just make sure the radiator cap is on.

 

[AABEN]

Why don't you put a screen on the front that way you can clean it off. This will keep the rest clean. I have one on the front of mine it works grate

 

[Red Rocket]

I am also adding a screen in front of the radiator. I am doing this extra work because this machine overheats even when the radiator is clean, I want it to run cool... It takes a ton of power to mow a 20 foot swath.

 

[rbattelle]

I am doing this extra work because this machine overheats even when the radiator is clean, I want it to run cool

This may seem silly, but have you checked the thermostat? Is the fan functional? Seems strange for a working machine with a good radiator to overheat.



Ryan

 

[steved]

This may seem silly, but have you checked the thermostat? Is the fan functional? Seems strange for a working machine with a good radiator to overheat.



Ryan

Not if the machine is overloaded (i. e. undersized) for the implement its trying to run... no different than our trucks, overload them and they will run hot. I see this a lot in the farming community; the implements get bigger, but the tractors don't.



The first thing I would verify is that the temp guage is accurate...



If you mount the cooler above the roofline, you would need to fill the coolant at that point, the newly installed cooler, (it will drain back) or you will have a lot of air in the system. The oil filter/oil system should have a anti-drainback valve to keep the oil system full.



As for the oil, we are not talking about an oil flow like a bypass filter. The amount of flow needed to cool oil would effectively starve the engine of lubrication by returning that kind of volume to the pan or valve cover (if plumbed similar to a bypass filter). If you plan on using that amount of oil of a bypass filter, you might as well not bother as it won't do a thing (I had a cooler on my bypass). You need to buy a sandwich adapter that scavenges the oil from the oil filter and returns to the same point. Another option would be to find a remote filter kit, and plumb the cooler between the remote head and the adapter.



IMHO, I would opt for mounting a separate (and large) cooler with a separate electric fan for both coolant and oil. I would relocate the PS cooler from in front of the radiator. The other thing to consider is whether the transmission is adding extra heat to the engine via coolers, if its a hydrostat or hydraulic trans.



I would also consider running a synthetic oil if the engine is indeed running "hot"... they degrade less at higher temps. And I would make sure the implement gear boxes are filled with good synthetic gear oils or greases. I would also verify the blades on the cutter are sharp as dull blades require a tremendous amount of power to operate as compared to sharp ones.



And if this doesn't work, buy a bigger machine to drive the implement...

 

[snuff]

Not if the machine is overloaded (i. e. undersized) for the implement its trying to run... no different than our trucks, overload them and they will run hot. I see this a lot in the farming community; the implements get bigger, but the tractors don't.



The first thing I would verify is that the temp guage is accurate...



If you mount the cooler above the roofline, you would need to fill the coolant at that point, the newly installed cooler, (it will drain back) or you will have a lot of air in the system. The oil filter/oil system should have a anti-drainback valve to keep the oil system full.



As for the oil, we are not talking about an oil flow like a bypass filter. The amount of flow needed to cool oil would effectively starve the engine of lubrication by returning that kind of volume to the pan or valve cover (if plumbed similar to a bypass filter). If you plan on using that amount of oil of a bypass filter, you might as well not bother as it won't do a thing (I had a cooler on my bypass). You need to buy a sandwich adapter that scavenges the oil from the oil filter and returns to the same point. Another option would be to find a remote filter kit, and plumb the cooler between the remote head and the adapter.



IMHO, I would opt for mounting a separate (and large) cooler with a separate electric fan for both coolant and oil. I would relocate the PS cooler from in front of the radiator. The other thing to consider is whether the transmission is adding extra heat to the engine via coolers, if its a hydrostat or hydraulic trans.



I would also consider running a synthetic oil if the engine is indeed running "hot"... they degrade less at higher temps. And I would make sure the implement gear boxes are filled with good synthetic gear oils or greases. I would also verify the blades on the cutter are sharp as dull blades require a tremendous amount of power to operate as compared to sharp ones.



And if this doesn't work, buy a bigger machine to drive the implement...

yea that sounds about right... ... ... .

 

[rbattelle]

The amount of flow needed to cool oil would effectively starve the engine of lubrication by returning that kind of volume to the pan or valve cover (if plumbed similar to a bypass filter).

Good point, I didn't even think about that.

And if this doesn't work, buy a bigger machine to drive the implement...

I like this suggestion best! How about one of these, with the 15L Cummins engine! Oo.



Ryan

 

[steved]

I like this suggestion best! How about one of these, with the 15L Cummins engine! Oo.



Ryan

You think that's under 20 feet wide? He might need a bigger mower!

 

[Red Rocket]

I have come to some conclusions on this matter.



This machine is hydrostat, and the cooler for this is in front of the radiator.



I have found two 8 pass 10"x20" coolers which I intend to relocate to the roof... . with a 2000 cfm 16" electric fan. I found one of the sandwich style oil cooler adaptors, and I intend to cool engine oil instead of coolant. The second radiator will cool the hydraulics on the tractor, which includes the hydrostat.



I first replaced the guage and ran the machine, here is what I found. after mowing for 30 minutes, the coolant had reached 210 degrees from a stable 185 during driving down the road. This was on a cool day, with a clean radiator. The coolant is circulating, and the thermostat seems to work well, as can now be seen on the temp gauge.



So I plan to cool engine oil and hydraulic oil through my new coolers, this frees the radiator to plug up less, and cool only the engine.



2 questions:



I think this cooling system will hold around 1. 5 quarts of oil. Can I just run a little extra in the case, or should I fill it full, and assume there's enough to fill the cooling system, then drain back to the pan. We just changed the oil and it was 12 qts.



Second, will this type of oil cooling really dissipate enough heat to make a difference? Should I also get a cooler thermostat like 160 degrees?



Any input on this?

 

[steved]

First, to fill the oil, you should be able to over fill by a quart, run it, and the bypass valve in either the filter of the engine should hold the oil in the cooler from returning to the pan... you should be able to judge this when you fill the tractor with fresh oil... if it takes more to get it full, its holding in the cooler... if not, then its draining out. I would either mount the cooler lower or overfill the crank by the calculated amount... don't run it at normal fill and expect that to be enough.



As for the cooler thermostat... unless you live where its really cold, probably not needed... and as I eluded to prior, I'd be running a synthetic oil because of the added heat, and that would work well in winter. I would not worry about it for the hydrostat drive.

 

[PToombs]

I've been kinda watching what's going on here. I work on heavy equipment for a living. From my point of view, I can see 2 things.

1, some of the hydraulic system may be getting worn, letting oil bypass, which causes heat. Motor, pump, relief valve, etc.

2, Which I think you've figured out. The hydraulic cooler is heat saturating the radiator.

I would just add an auxiliary cooler with a fan to the hydraulic system, preferably before the main, or doing away with the main, and leave the rest of the cooling system (oil and water), alone. Then see what happens before redoing the rest of the system.



Have you checked the hydraulic oil temp? With a guage or IR gun?

 

[Red Rocket]

hydraulics

I IR'd the unknowns, and after the test run with everything clean the water was up to 210, after a short drive back the hydraulics appeared to be around 115, and the engine oil was at around 190. This was only run for about 30 minutes.

 

[PToombs]

That's not really hot for the hyds. I wonder if the radiator is plugged down in between the cores?

The other thing is, did the hyds cool off on the ride back and the radiator stayed hot because the engine was worked?

You need to run it, then stop and check oils and water temps right there. Best way IMO.