b100 trashes injestors?

[WilkinsJ]

I read a column in the latest TDR magazine written by someone who apparently is a tech a Carson Dodge. I don't have the magazine in front of me so I can't state the writer's name.



He was commenting on alternative fuels and stated that he had a, I think, 2000 or later Dodge diesel at the dealership for repairs with trashed injectors from running b100.



He also stated he had another Dodge Cummins there that was running WVO and the engine was trashed from the wvo getting past the rings into the engine oil.



This is the first comment I have heard that directly states that b100 or WVO can do damage to your engine.



Can anyone comment?

 

[Mundgyver]

I posted this in another thread. It is directly out of the manuals which I quote by title and page.



What you are going to read here, is quoted directly out of the following BOSCH book, Diesel-Engine Management, 4th Edition by Robert Bosch Gmbh, October 2005. This is from page 48 and 49, under Alternative Fuels.



Food for thought guys. Information is always valuable.



Quote begins PG 48. Alternative fuels for diesel engine include biogenic fuels, and, in a wider sense, fossil fuels that are not produced on the basis of crude oil. This included mainly esters that are derived from organic oils.

Alcohol fuels (methanol and ethanol) are only used in diesel engines to a minor extent, and only as an emulsion together with diesel fuel.



Fatty-Acid Methyl Ester (FAME)



Fatty-Acid Methyl Ester (Fame) – commonly known as biodiesel – is the generic term applied to vegetable or animal oils and greases which have been transesterified with methanol. FAME is produced from various raw materials, mainly from rape seed oil (Rape Seed Oil Methyl Ester (RME) Europe), or soya (Soya Methyl Ester (SME), U. S. A. ). There are also sunflower and palm esters (Used Frying Oil Methyl Esters (UFOME), and beef tallow esters (Tallow Methyl Esters (TME)), but these are mostly used in conjunction with other FAMEs. Ethanol can also be transesterified instead of methanol, as in Brazil to produce soya ethyl ester. FAME is either used in pure form (B100, i. e. 100% biodiesel), or it is mixed with diesel fuel to maximum FAME proportion of 5% to from Blend B5. B5 is permitted as a diesel fuel in compliance with EN590.

Since the use of low-quality FAME may lead to malfunctions or damage to the engine and fuel-injection system, FAME specifications are controlled at European level (EN14214). It is essential, in particular, to ensure good aging stability (oxidation stability) and to eliminate contamination caused by the process. FAME must satisfy European Standard EN 14214, regardless of whether it is used directly as B100, or as an additive in diesel fuel. The B5 blend created by FAME additives must also comply with the requirements for pure diesel fuel (EN590).

The production of FAME is uneconomical in comparison with mineral-oil-based diesel fuels and must be heavily subsidized (exemption from mineral-oil tax) in Germany.



Pure, unesterified vegetable oils are no longer used in direct-injection diesel engines since they cause considerable problems, mainly due to their high viscosity and extreme nozzle coking.



PG 49, Emulsions

Emulsions of water or ethanol in diesel fuels are undergoing trials at a number of different institutes, Water and alcohols are difficult to dissolve in diesel. Emulsifiers are required to keep the mixture stable and prevent it from demulsification. Wear- and corrosion-inhibiting measures are also necessary. The use of emulsifiers reduces soot- and nitrogen-oxide emissions since the combustion mixture is cooler due to the water content.



Their use to date has been restricted to vehicle fleets which, for the most part, are equipped with in-line fuel-injection pumps. Other fuel-injection systems are either unsuitable for operations with the emulsifiers, or no trials have been made using them.



End of Quote

 

[Bob Wagner]

Here is some good information







http://www.nwbombers.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=27442&hl=

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

I put 100,000 miles on a '99 VW Golf TDI on Home Brew B100, and nearly the same on a '96 Dodge Cummins and never hurt the injectors. The manufacturers have plenty of horror stories, but if you check the National Renewable Energy Laboratory website (NREL.gov) you'll see plenty of fleets running Bio that have had no problems. Some of them have over 2500 vehicles, from lawn mowers to pickups runningthe same fuels without the terrible effects they were warned about.

I'm not advocating B100, or anything else for that matter, especially because you're using a fuel in your vehicle that it was not engineered to run.

On the other side of the fence, I've run SVO in a couple of older IDI Diesels and absolutely don't recommend it in any diesel engine you care about. I've experienced injector coking, carboning of the valves and pistons, and stuck piston rings. But you can also find people that swear it can be run witout harm.

I make the same recommendation to every person that asks me about running Biodiesel. "If you're worried about running it in your engine, then don't do it. Fuel is cheap in comparison to headaches or an engine. "

Joe

 

[MHagen]

Sounds like BS.



Ive run B100 for almost 100K. I just removed the head to do a head gasket cause it was seeping antifreeze outside the block. Not Bio related but I got a good look at the injectors and there was no coking. The inside of the cylinders looked like new and it has 182K on it. I will continue to run my B100.



Mike

 

[JFaughn]

I've read many studies , gov. , univesity , ect .
It seems most all the studies that are more than 3-5 yrs. old , can not find anything bad to say , [ Most of those studies have seent eng. s back to there manufactures for disasembly , found no problems , put back together , then put back into service ] .
Now in the last 2 yrs. or so , there is nothing good about bio -[ transesterfication ] .
But and its a BIG BUTT , most of the bio plants are owned and operated by farmers / Co-Ops , ect. , no oil companies yet , the problem is the poeple running the refining equiptment , and most of the problems there having is PH balancing , [ this is from someone involved in setting the plants up & going back to look at problems { even tho this is in wrighting , on the net , I did not say this }] .
The hole world seems to be in the same boat about every subject , only the extreams get any play [ media ] and they all have there own scinetist [ claiming who knows what ] .
Just remember one of the presepts of propoganda , If you can not hide the truth then mix it with so many lies that they will never figure it out .
Then theres my old oaky buddies phrase , Figures do not lie , But liers can figure .
I'm not calling anybody here a lier , just making the point ,that we'er here all trying to share info and its hard to get the straight POOP.
Then with so many differant outfits making bio , and its new to all , there still trying to figure it out .

 

[CanadianCarGuy]

Here is some food for thought, 1 out of every 3 biodiesel plant makes biodiesel that does NOT comply with ASTM standards! Some guys from my biodiesel forum performed tests on random samples from various biodiesel plants around North America, mainly the larger ones and found many were not finishing the biodiesel after it was processed, or skimping on the chemicals and not getting full reactions. I myself feel more comfortable making it myself, then at least I know what I am burning. There are several tests that anyone can perform, to get a good idea of the quality of fuel they are making.

 

[Msilbernagel]

I would add these thoughts, based upon what I've read to this point:



WVO/SVO (waste, or new veg oil) is NOT b100/biodiesel, so experience with one doesn't necessarily help predict experience with the other. One of the bigger differences would be temp related viscosity and cold-weather performance (tho neither is that good).



Also, SVO/WVO blending (with gas, kerosene, alcohols, etc) will substantially change the viscosity and gel/pour points (and other significant characteristics, depending upon what you care about), so comparing blended fuel with straight veg-oils doesn't work well either (as predictors).



Fuel systems obviously vary widely.

Engines vary widely (DI . vs. IDI . vs. grid heat . vs. glow plugs, etc)

Driving habits vary widely.

Driving conditions vary widely.



My point? Generalizations have limited usefulness and application.



Commercial diesel (#1, #2) has a lot invested in it to make it work for everyone (target market, cars/trucks) under all but the most extreme conditions without the owner/operating having to fuss with it.



The same is less true of commercially produced biodiesel, though nearly so under most circumstances and as long as you don't exceed manufacturer's recommendations. It's not as mature of an industry for manufacturing, and that's probably a factor in some cases.



With homegrown fuels, especially vegoils/blends, we're all alchemists and have to take all this stuff into account ourselves, and be responsible for our own results. It's not for everyone.



The home biodiesel folks have to do plenty of work to make a product consistently comparable to commercial bio, so they're not getting off easy either.



Alternate fuels are not for wimps. A bit like those with performance boxes, aftermarket cams, injectors, etc... we are our own warranty stations. And, generally, we like it that way. Oo.



Mark

--

Here is some food for thought, 1 out of every 3 biodiesel plant makes biodiesel that does NOT comply with ASTM standards! Some guys from my biodiesel forum performed tests on random samples from various biodiesel plants around North America, mainly the larger ones and found many were not finishing the biodiesel after it was processed, or skimping on the chemicals and not getting full reactions. I myself feel more comfortable making it myself, then at least I know what I am burning. There are several tests that anyone can perform, to get a good idea of the quality of fuel they are making.

 

[ChrisJones]

I recall reading that a guy from Germany wanted to develop an engine that would run on fuel made from what the farmers were growing. What a concept, an engine that would run on oils made from crops. Another point this person wanted to pursue was that he did not want to see farmers having to use or get hooked on so to speak, petroleum based fuel products. I wonder how Rudolph Diesel would feel today if he knew just how much we are hooked on petroleum for his engine and how little farm based products can be used - 5%.



Chris

 

[cj hall]

news flash

ok i might be wrong buttttttttttttttttttttt ,



the diesel will run on veg oil grown by farmers .

this has been done .



Mr. Diesel did it first

George Washington Carver told Henry Ford that some time the world will need to run a different fuel because we would run out of petrol or crude oil.



The bottom line is it works, get over the fact the oil companys are not telling you the truth about what will work. If you want to try it your self then do it. The only reason that the Exxon/Conoco/Cennex/Union76/any other Oil Company and that the Govt are ok with Biodiesel is that it has to be refined in the diesel fuel they say is as good as diesel , They dont want any one to find out that the veg oil will work just as good as diesel.



THE ONLY THING WE AS A COUNTRY NEED TO DO IS HAVE AN OPEN MIND AND PRY OPEN A LITTLE SPACE IN OUR BRAIN AND THINK BUT FIRST WE NEED TO PULL ARE HEAD OUT FROM THAT PLACE ITS BEEN FOR YEARS.



if this makes you mad, sorry but the truth hurts.



cj hall

 

[tgordon]

It works, thats for sure. Of course even as much as guys say that the new ULSD is fine for the engines, I think CJ remembers this, even the guys working for big oil add additives to their private fuel before burning it because they don't even trust their own companies. Imagine that, their own employees.

 

[Champane Flight]

Has nothing to do with trust....

It works, thats for sure. Of course even as much as guys say that the new ULSD is fine for the engines, I think CJ remembers this, even the guys working for big oil add additives to their private fuel before burning it because they don't even trust their own companies. Imagine that, their own employees.

I deal with the new fuels on a everyday basis, I know it will be just fine all by itself. I CHOOSE to put my own additives to my fuel NOT because of quality, or lack of, but because of MY personal preference of performance. I also leave my rig sit in below zero temps for weeks, I do not drive it daily. I have the utmost faith in our product, I would put up against ANY one of your private bio brewerys for quality, and characteristics.

 

[JGK]

It works, thats for sure. Of course even as much as guys say that the new ULSD is fine for the engines, I think CJ remembers this, even the guys working for big oil add additives to their private fuel before burning it because they don't even trust their own companies. Imagine that, their own employees.

tgordon,



Where did you get that info from? Understand, I'm not contesting it. I don't work for any fuel company or anything related. But your statement is interesting and I was wondering where it came from. I mean, its right up there with the rumors I've heard that some Microsoft execs prefer Apple laptops for their personal use because they are more reliable and easier to use.



Oh, and cj hall, we all know that the diesel engine was originally designed to use veggie oil, and will still do so now, but I suspect it has probably evolved over the years to work best with petro-diesel. So I'm not surprised that there's evidence that long term use of straight veggie oil causes problems, I think largely due to the viscosity. Perhaps also due to lack of some additives that modern engines need for longevity and efficiency. So while it works, I don't agree SVO works just as good.



I compromise, I use 65 to 85 precent home brew bio-D mixed with petro-D. There are still some trade-offs, but I believe less so than SVO, and it works just great for me and ranges between about 1/4 to 2/3 the cost of petro-D, depending on my costs of materials for making bio-D and the current pump price of petro-D.



Thanks,

Jay

 

[tgordon]

He has already made his rebuttle as I thought he would.

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

. . not to be a fly in the ointment, but the Diesel engine was NOT designed to run on Vegetable Oil. It was designed to run on whatever fuel was cheapest at the time (which was petroleum based in those days too), and to be more efficient than spark ignition engines. Rudolf never even tried peanut oil (as the legend goes) but first saw a Licensee running it at the 1901 Paris Expedition. It was a surprise to him at the time. He tried plenty of solid and liquid fuels, but never tried any type of vegetable oil.

If you can find a copy, pick up "Diesel's Engine" by Lyle Cummins. It's very long and moderately technical. It gives a complete history of the evolution of the Diesel Engine.

Joe

 

[Champane Flight]

Yes and?

He has already made his rebuttle as I thought he would.

I do not run just the fuel I personally recieve, test, and ship on a daily basis, I run whatever fuel is available, just like everyone else. I trust our fuel, but do I trust theirs? I try to put the best quality fuel into my truck at all times. Cetane levels on the ULSD are low, all other specs are much the same as the LSD, I do add cetane booster in my truck. Unlike some who add gasoline to a witches brew of vegetable oil and french frys... :-laf



Engine builders of today actually build the engine to the fuel, case in point, the new Cummins. In the old days they ran what they had, look at some of the old multifuel engines, those days are gone my friend.

 

[Schlickenmeyer]

I also think this needs pointing out. The concept of the diesel and these fuels is not what is at issue. Rudolph buddy did not have injector pumps running at thousands or tens of thousands of psi, modern injectors, etc.

There are things I would feed my old Mercedes 300D that I would never put in my truck. So the question becomes not can it be a diesel fuel, but can it be a diesel fuel in modern vehicles. We need more old school engines to do this right.

 

[Mundgyver]

So the question becomes not can it be a diesel fuel, but can it be a diesel fuel in modern vehicles. We need more old school engines to do this right.

I agree with this, it is not that I do not like the bio fuels options, it comes down to the QUALITY OF THE BREW that I am going to feed my engine. Right now I am content to sit on the side line and observe, learn and then decide what I will do.



The QUALITY OF THE FUEL is what I look at.

 

[gitchesum]

All this talk about oil companies not wanting alternative fuel sources is bunk. Oil companies have invested over 11 billion dollars in many sources of bio-fuels.



I konw that Chevron is the money behind the multi-million dollar biodiesel plant being built in Galveston Tx.



I don't think you will find anyone that is against fuel that supports US farmers, but that fuel should meet the same standards that the petroleum bases fuels have to meet.

 

[Champane Flight]

Think

I do like the idea of bio fuel, I think it is way beyond the time to start researching it. It has not come up to my standards as a year round fuel source though. It gells at too high of temp, it has separation problems, and it scours fuel systems, which can be good, unless fuel filter supply is low. Right now it is more a novelty than a bonifide fuel source. I will not experiment on my truck for the sake of thumbing my nose at big oil, too much investment. I have put a tank or two in the wifes TDI, in midsummer, on road trips, from trusted sources. It likes bio, seems to run smoother, but mileage was down a tad.



I ask the question, WHY can Europe have ultra clean diesel fuels, WITH high mileage and power, while we are still in the dark ages with our technology?



http://www.shell.com/home/Framework...ists/fuels/vpower_diesel_pp/introduction.html