Banks Six-Gun, Yes or No?

[Don-T]

Originally posted by LHebert

Lonestar,





Banks has nothing on anyone, but a substandard, unreliable, overpriced copy of someone elses hard work, just ask someone that has had problems with one of there products, no customer service to boot, enough said.



Lee

What is the Six Gun a copy of? How is it substandard? How is it unreliable? Who has had problems with this box so I can ask them? What so you mean by overpriced?

 

[KKlepfer]

RAMSPEED

Their numbers are also with exhaust, intake and big head waste gate actuator. Be warned that you wont get their maximum advertised output from your HO.

Great point. I don't know how some of these companies get away with what I consider misleading advertising. If they are going to be misleading in their ads what makes you think they are going to be forthright over the phone.

 

[Don-T]

Originally posted by RAMINSPEED

I was talking to Banks today about their box and they say you will get less of an increase with the HO than the SO. Their numbers are also with exhaust, intake and big head waste gate actuator. Be warned that you wont get their maximum advertised output from your HO. Especially if if you haven't made any other changes to you truck.

By less of an increase do they mean the HP and torque will be less at max or do they mean the percent of increase will be less because the base numbers are higher? You won't get the big numbers out of any box long enough to do any good except on a dyno, unless you make changes to provide more air flow to go with the extra fuel.

 

[RACE427]

Banks yes !

All of the Banks kits products we have installed at school have went without any problems. All of the components have worked as advertised. All of their products install and fit as advertised.



When we had a Banks compressor fail for an exhaust brake, Banks stood 100% behind their product and sent us a replacement at no charge. Banks is a first class company that knows what they are doing. I would not hesitate to use their products.



Hope this helps!

 

[DPKetchum]

Had a 01 come in at the D. C. dealer I worked out running badly. Was the injection pump and it had a bunch of Banks goodies on it. D. C. (STAR) declined warranty on the pump because of mods and BANKS sent a NEW pump and said send THEM the OLD pump and THEY would HANDLE it with D. C. :--)

 

[WadePatton]

Never. Mr. Banks slammed all the other diesel performance folks in the last TDR. That's downright arseholeish. Never.



Now has anybody put a P7100 on a CR engine yet?

 

[lmills]

Originally posted by CSilkowski

Anyone have experience with the Quadzilla box?



From their website it doesn't appear to increase rail pressure, but increases output through timing and duration. Is this accurate?



Thanks

I ran the Quadzilla box for a couple months before selling it. My buddy has it now. They make two different models. A race version which goes to 140 HP and a tow version which goes to 100HP. The tow version is a pressure only box. The race version is a timng and pressure box

 

[RACE427]

Banks

Gale Banks, Gale Banks, Gale Banks, period!!!



Safe reliable power, the only way to go !

 

[DLeno]

on the banks:



Kudos for making a statement about fuel pressure and actually stating that without the speed loader you won't go above 24,500 psi. thats only 1500 psi above stock max. The fact that they don't hide behind "within stock limits" obfuscation like other pressure boxes (for example TS and VA) is a very honorable thing in my opinion. Personally I just cant stomach the claims other pressure boxes are making that all is "within factory limits" when the only other option (fuel pressure outside of factory limits) is a blown rail and a dead engine.



rasberries for publishing power numbers that don't mean anything to the vast majority of CDT owners. a 235HP kali SO engine with a CAT and "recommended airflow improvements? come on!



kudos for the drivetrain slip detection. Thats a reasonable industry contribution. it isn't of interest to me personally (6 speed) and I rather detest having to tap into an wire on the ECM harness, but I'm sure someone will find it of interest. I guess thats the price you pay for drivetrain protection.



For auto trucks that want to stay with the stock transmission, I'd say the Banks has a good market niche carved out. I dont hear of any setting codes, so unfortunately for TST that means they are the only timing box (of three) that is setting codes. (Volumizer and Banks both do timing).

 

[marksp]

question from a newbie on diesel tuners, I don't understand the comment - "rasberries for publishing power numbers that don't mean anything to the vast majority of CDT owners. a 235HP kali SO engine with a CAT and "recommended airflow improvements? come on!".



As near as I can tell, there are no performance related mechanical differences between and CA SO motor and a 49 state SO or HO other than the cat. If this is true, then the engine performance differences are all software defined (pressure, timing, duration, etc. ). If this is true, then don't aftermarket tuners bypass factory settings (both SO and HO) to achieve their published results? In other words, they replace the factory ECM\PCM program (relevant bits) with their own.



This would explain why Banks literature claims larger gains on a SO than on a HO. The end performance result is the same for SO and HO for this and other boxes. Only the relative change is different.



Curious if someone knows definitively???

 

[DLeno]

I don't think it is reliable to say that the end result (SO/HO) would be the same. I'm not saying it won't ever be close to being true in any example, I'm saying its not reliable to make that broad of an assumption. It's an interesting way to look at it, but typically the box crowd (as I have interpreted it anyway) prefers to view things in terms of "how much improvement will I feel". raw, absolute numbers are not as meaningful to some because you have to do some additional work to understand how *your* truck will be affected. And most guys (again, my take here) like to know what the box will do to *their* otherwise stock truck.



As regards the ability of the mechanical system to make power, I really don't know how different the HO and the Cali SO motor are. If memory serves the piston and head designs are different, motivated by differnet objectives (NOx for the 235 versus HP for the 305 engine). They're certainly different animals -- a 30% increase in stock power is substantial, and the way ECM programming accomplishes emissions conformance is also different. Unless I'm mistaken, the 235 HP Cali engine has differnet combustion parameters that will respond differently to the various fueling boxes. As you will see below, none of the fueling boxes out there (with VA as the only exception) replace bits.



With one exception, today's boxes for the HPCR all work in the ANALOG DOMAIN. thats right. they acheive their power gains by introducing error into the analog signals that the ECM normally sees, without touching any ECM bits. Manifold pressure information and fuel pressure information are analog (continuously varying) voltages. make no mistake, these methods are effective, but they don't simply replace stock bits with higher powered bits. In fact, no ECM bits are ever changed -- the ECM itself is left to control everything the way it was intended to. In fact, the ECM thinks it is operating stock.



Consider that ECM programing is vastly different between the 235 and the 305 engines becaue the programmers had different objectives. The only thing a fueling box does is give the ECM different manifold pressure and fuel pressure voltages, and the rest is up to the ECM.



Now then, The Banks box is a "pressure port" fueling box with the addition of analog timing. thats right, the signal coming off the crank is analog in nature (it is a pulse stream, not a binary number) . Here again the ECM program itself is untouched and unmodified. Timing advance is accomplished by inserting delay (error) into the pulse stream coming off of the crank sensor, for example, so that the ECM will compensate by advancing timing. none of this ECM fooling is in the digital domain. no bits are changed directly. the ECM itself remains in full control according to its OEM programming.



with regards to my Banks statement, there are the following concerns:



1. taking the CAT off is illegal. unless I read the Banks site incorrectly, the Cali 235 engine making the published HP gains on the 235 HP engine had no CAT. I'm not saying no one will do this, but for me personally I wouldn't. Especially for the crowd to which Banks appeals (protect the power train, mild performance gains, etc. ) I thought that CAT removal was a stretch.



2. With Banks exhaust (undoubtedly including their very nice 4" downpipe which removes the stock 3. 5" restriction at the turbo), Banks muffler, the wastegate modification, AND a new intake system, you have substantial modifications, amounting to a purchase cost well in excess of the box itself. You have to pay some big $$ in ADDITION to the the cost of the box in order to see the performance gains posted. And when you're done, your truck will be illegal to run on the street.



California guys, please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it legal to remove the CAT?

 

[fencebuilders]

cat

Doug,yes it is absolutely is illegal to remove the cat in Ca.

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

Originally posted by DLeno



California guys, please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it legal to remove the CAT?

There is not CAT on a 2003 Dodge. Not even Cali, and therefore it is not illeagle to change the Downpipe or muffler.

 

[fencebuilders]

Greg,there IS a cat on my '03. Cant speak for all of them though.

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

Originally posted by fencebuilders

Greg,there IS a cat on my '03. Cant speak for all of them though.

It is a resonator. Look up Catalytic convertor in your 2003 service manual and get back to me. You will find that they are on Gassers only... ... .

 

[fencebuilders]

HMMMMM,interesting. I hope you are right!

 

[DLeno]

so why would banks say "235 HP california engine with a CAT"?

 

[DPKetchum]

I was told that a certain percentage of 03s were MADE WITH CATS. Had to be for some reason and the Calif. trucks definitely were. When I bought mine there was one on the lot with a CAT. The pdi tech said every once in a while he saw one or two new ones unloaded with a CAT on them.

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

Sorry guys, Banks is wrong. No Cat on an 03

 

[RAMINSPEED]

Originally posted by Don-T

By less of an increase do they mean the HP and torque will be less at max or do they mean the percent of increase will be less because the base numbers are higher? You won't get the big numbers out of any box long enough to do any good except on a dyno, unless you make changes to provide more air flow to go with the extra fuel.

When I talked with Banks, they mentioned the H/O would have 12 hp less INCREASE than the S/O with the same equipment. The real question is they claim power increases with their monster exhaust and air filter and mod to the waste gate. since your get more performance out of all those other mods, what is their REAL power increase that just the "box" gives you? I'm sure it's not the power they advertise.



When I bought my exhaust from banks I told them I had an HO and they still asked me if it had a CAT. It's a frigin HO not a Cali SO! last I heard NO 03 HO's have CATs.