BD Twins

[BMancin]

So what are the thoughts on the BD Twins?

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Why would anyone buy 2 new turbos only good for 500rwhp when you can use the stock turbo to over 550rwhp?



Seems like a waste.

 

[CLAYTON]

Why would anyone buy 2 new turbos only good for 500rwhp when you can use the stock turbo to over 550rwhp?



Seems like a waste.

What stock turbo are you talking about??????



You might be able to have 550rwhp for a split second before temps sky rocket.



If you have a secret about our turbos let me know

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

A set of TWINS using the stock turbo.



he was aking about twins

 

[CLAYTON]

A set of TWINS using the stock turbo.

AHH I see :-laf :-laf



Is anyone out there running a twin set up with the stocker?

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

I build a kit for 03-04's



http://www.tdr1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122377

 

[BMancin]

Why would anyone buy 2 new turbos only good for 500rwhp when you can use the stock turbo to over 550rwhp?



Seems like a waste.

So you wouldn't recomend these and 500hp is the limit? I thought they are good up to like 1400 ft lbs. And i see with your set-up that the big turbo is a b2, how does this compair to the big turbo on the BD set-up which I think is some kind of S300 turbo.

 

[AK RAM]

Well, here is the extended version. I have a set on the bench I have been working with. I am both impressed and disappointed. I'd have to say they are not worth what they are asking for them the way they come out of the box. I don't have them installed yet, so I may be putting my foot in my mouth. The "extended tip" wheels that BD brags so much about may in fact do something I'm not expecting…. like actually provide a real benefit. When they first came out, the 3rd Gen kit retailed for $3,400, and a set could be had for around $2,800 if you had an "in" with a performance shop. On the first of the year, BD's retail pricing on their 3rd Gen twins went up to $4,550. Now, these twins perform pretty good according to the numbers I have been given from people that are running them, but not that good. You can get a top of the line Piers 40/3B set that will probably blow the doors off of the BD twins for that much. Heck, or buy Mark's kit for $3,500 and use your stock turbo on top.



With that said, they look very pretty on the outside. Nice powder coating, excellent welds (you should see some of the hack jobs on piping I have seen), great fit, and a very well put together kit that is "bolt right up" and needs nothing other than you putting them on. Comes complete with an ATS manifold, BD X-Intake w/ AFE PG7 (twins version, slightly shorter), and new downpipe. On the flip side, they are very "ruff" on the inside. None of the joints line up on the inside. All of them have one side that sticks out into the exhaust flow about 1/4 inch all the way around. The wastegate cover on the small turbo only allows the dual volute flappers to open up just a hair under 1/4 inch. All of this greatly reduces their efficiency and will greatly increase their backpressures. They could be much better performers on average if BD would clean them up some and put a different plate on the wastegate housing that will allow the arm to travel its full length. I bolted my set together for a fit test and saw all of this and couldn't believe it. What a hindrance to performance. I have spent the last two weeks porting and polishing everything, including turbine housings and the ATS manifold that comes with it. I will also enlarge the wastegate volutes and put on a different cover that will allow the arm full travel. Lots of work to do still. It sucks that I have had to put this much elbow grease into them, but then again I picked mine up from one of those performance shops where I had an "in" while under the old pricing , so it will be well worth it. When I'm done, they will perform well. Also, no where near the deal I got, but I still know a few places where they can be had for around $3,800, which isn't to bad I guess if your willing to do some work on them. A little porting and polishing, which everyone can do in the garage, will go a long way.



The top turbo is a stock Schwitzer S300. I know people that are running this turbo as a single with the TST, EZ, and DD2 injectors. It is not enough turbo for that combination with EGTs through the roof quick, but they haven't been able to blow it up. It appears to be tough. The bottom is a Schwitzer S320 with a custom compressor housing and wheel. The compressor side looks to be a custom cast, as in a copy of someone else's, because all identifying marks have been ground off just like my B1-04 was (we know where that one was copied from). I have been told it is an S400 compressor side cast to fit the S320 bearing housing for cost reasons. That doesn’t make sense and could not be confirm, so in one ear and out the other.



I know a guy with these twins on a 3rd Gen just as they come out of the box, running the TST on 5/5, EZ on 4, and 100hp honed injectors, and can not get EGTs to hit 1400*F no matter what he does. Boost hovers around 58lbs with that combination, and will touch 62 lbs on a long up-hill pull. We know that is not the best power making combination, but you have to admit he is dumping an awful lot of fuel in there. Those EGTs are impressive. FWIW. The pic of the twins on the bench are mine…. still in work. The installed pics belong to the guy mentioned above.

 

[yycguy]

Well they sure do look pretty!

 

[ThomasLawrence]

Ummm... why does the exhaust piping out of the top turbo look like a flexible plastic intake tube?



-Tom

 

[AK RAM]

So you wouldn't recommend these and 500hp is the limit?

You may do good to call and talk to the folks at BD as well if your interested. Just remember, all turbo vendors need to sell turbos to put food on the table..... they are salesmen first, so you will have to weed through the bull if you call. Real users on the forum here is your best source of info. I can get well over 500HP with my single B1-04 and have seen one person reach 659rwhp with it, but you wouldn't want to run that hot for very long. Good for trips down the track, but that is about it at that HP level. What you can get to and what you can sustain efficiently are two different things. Not to justify them "just because I own them", but from the folks I talked to before I made the purchase (and I did a lot of research), they can drive empty (unloaded) comfortably at over 500hp and never have to worry about EGTs. If that is the case and they do run that cool at 500hp, they will support much, much more for short trips down the track on race day.



Piers still has a few tricks that most vendors don’t know about yet…. things I have seen first-hand. I still say the Piers twins, although $4,600, is still the best deal going for everything you get. They are truly "tuned" for optimal performance. If cost wasn't such an issue for me and I wasn't offered the deal I was on these, I would be sporting Piers twins for sure.



The BD twins will do OK, just not worth what they are asking for them. It would have to be a heck of a deal for me to recommend them over everything else that is out there. Send me a PM if your interested and I'll put you in touch with the guy I mentioned above who is running them. He will tell you like it is so you can decide for yourself.



By the way, I have a B1-04 for sale in the classified section if anyone is looking for one.



.

 

[AK RAM]

Ummm... why does the exhaust piping out of the top turbo look like a flexible plastic intake tube?



-Tom

Hot pipe or cold pipe? When you say exhaust I think hot pipe, but for some reason I'm thinking your talking about the black powder coated cold pipe. The hot pipe is a nice design compared to some. Where the round pipe attaches to the square flange for the bottom turbo to bolt to... I have seen some vendors beat a round pipe with a hammer until it was semi-square and would weld it in place. This one is two pieces. The bottom half of the hot pipe and the square flange is a CNC cut solid piece with a nice gradual bend from round to square. It is where they welded the top half of the hot pipe to this nice CNC piece that sucks... . bad. Lots of porting on that one. It is wrapped in header wrap to retain the heat. Makes it look funny I guess. The cold pipes between turbos are all powder coated steal. The only plastic in the kit is the mount for the Inlet Air Temp sensor. They made a plastic mount for it and riveted it to the metal intake tube. Very cheesy.

 

[ThomasLawrence]

It is wrapped in header wrap to retain the heat. Makes it look funny I guess.

Okay, yeah - now that I zoom in, I can see that it's a wrap. At first look, the way the wrap overlaps, it looked like a plastic accordian-type intake hose.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

You may do good to call and talk to the folks at BD as well if your interested. Just remember, all turbo vendors need to sell turbos to put food on the table..... they are salesmen first, so you will have to weed through the bull if you call. Real users on the forum here is your best source of info. I can get well over 500HP with my single B1-04, but you wouldn't want to run that hot for very long. Good for trips down the track, but that is about it at that HP level. What you can get to and what you can sustain efficiently are two different things. Not to justify them "just because I own them", but from the folks I talked to before I made the purchase (and I did a lot of research), they can drive empty (unloaded) comfortably at over 500hp and never have to worry about EGTs. If that is the case and they do run that cool at 500hp, they will support much, much more for short trips down the track on race day.



Piers still has a few tricks that most vendors don’t know about yet…. things I have seen first-hand. I still say the Piers twins, although $4,600, is still the best deal going for everything you get. They are truly "tuned" for optimal performance. If cost wasn't such an issue for me and I wasn't offered the deal I was on these, I would be sporting Piers twins for sure.



The BD twins will do OK, just not worth what they are asking for them. It would have to be a heck of a deal for me to recommend them over everything else that is out there. Send me a PM if your interested and I'll put you in touch with the guy I mentioned above who is running them. He will tell you like it is so you can decide for yourself.

I don't sell them to put food on the table but they are my primary product.



here are the Piers twins. .

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You will notice the lack of external wastegates. Because of this he uses 14 and 16cm exhaust housings to help control boost.



I am not knocking his design. It works well but, like the difference between ATS and DTT, there are definitely different design philosophies.



I am a firm believer that the purpose behind twins is to have spoolup as good as the stock turbo, a top end that extends well above 3000rpm, and all that with flexibilty to accomodate 350-700 hp.



This cannot be accomplished by going from a 9cm to a 12,14, or 16 cm housing. on 94-02 truck i suggest a 12cm for anything under 600hp above that ther is an advantage to the larger housing(14cm) and a 40 compressor. HuffnPuff is running 12 flat 1/4s(639hp on the dyno) with a 35/40hybrid 14cm / Bht3B combination.



With a large external gate on twins with a B2 (significant flow advantage over the HT3B) and the stock '03-4 turbo boost is adjustable from 20-60psi. WOT EGTS with 100hp injectors and an EZ are 1050* and cruising EGTs are 550* at 80+mph with NO decrease in fuel mileage (actually a marginal increase at cruise).



Instead of putting on a different exhaust manifold and a different turbo, I reduce my cost and use an external wastegate. I sell my 03-04 twins for $3600. Once you subtract off an ATS manifold and a turbo from the Piers kit then add back a wastegate they are similarly priced.



With Twins you should be able to TOW at 500hp and not worry about EGTs. You migt have to worry about boiling off a little coolant



FWIW,

Mark

 

[Jim Fulmer]

I'm glad I don't have to wade through all the crap on Twins!



When you talk to vendor's about Twins ask them how many kits they have out on the market.



Jim

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

I'm glad I don't have to wade through all the crap on Twins!



When you talk to vendor's about Twins ask them how many kits they have out on the market.



Jim

Or ask them who showed you how to build yours, Jim.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Don't try to take credit for my accomplishments Mark!



Even if I never do it again I've done more than most, Canada and back 5500 miles and laid down... 706 HP



Vegas and back 2260 miles... 804 HP



Dallas and back twice 1. 782 HP 2. 793 HP



Difference is I don't gloat I thank the Lord.



Jim

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Don't try to take credit for my accomplishments Mark!



Even if I never do it again I've done more than most, Canada and back 5500 miles and laid down... 706 HP



Vegas and back 2260 miles... 804 HP



Dallas and back twice 1. 782 HP 2. 793 HP



Difference is I don't gloat I thank the Lord.



Jim

Not to undermine the Lord but I don't think he turns wrenches. I have no doubt that he helped you on the trips there and back.



You have done a lot of really good work. I'm not taking credit for your accomplishments. DON"T TRY TO UNDERMINE MY ACCOMPLISHMENTS. I have put a lot of work into my product and I have yet to have a customer be less than satisfied with the fit, finish, and performance of their Twins kit.



I do remember you coming to my house, taking a ride, crawling all over my truck, and taking notes for parts lists. Then you built your first set of twins with the wastegate setup wrong and fixed them after our conversation on the matter. Rember when you got the reduced egts and faster spoolup after reworking the wastegate outlet? Give a little credit where credit is due.



You've built how many kits? 2, 3? I'm only at 20 times that. With at least 15 different combinations of turbos. I'm working on my 8th set in last 60 days.



I wasted a lot of money before I built my first set of twins and it is my goal to prevent others from repeating my mistakes. Everyone should have a 500+rwhp daily driver that controls smoke, gets better than stock mileage, tows like a runaway freight train, and is a BLAST to drive. Nobody likes a $40k tempermental toy.





I'm glad you or anyone else can build their twins even with my help. I enjoy helping. That's why I do this. Though it's not the only reason, a few $$$ does make it worth my while.



Anyone who wants a parts list can email me for it. I'll even tell you how to build them. Hopefully you'll decide to buy them



No hard feelings Jim. Next time we meet we'll have to wash it away with a beer.



FWIW,

Mark

 

[Gypsyman]

Considering BD's price increase I would say go Piers all the way! There are a LOT of little thing that you don't see listed on the website that really add to the value of thier kit. Had I seen all the little things ahead of time I wouldn't have even bothered shopping around. I won't go into the differences that I saw during the install (don't know how much is proprietary info) but you should give Piers or Harry a call. The performance, spool, and temp drops I'm seeing are FAR beyond what I was expecting. I'm super picky also and the fit and finish are absolutely flawless. These twins are just unreal!



BTW, thanks to Jim Fulmer for answering all my questions and steering me in the right direction!



Richard

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Considering BD's price increase I would say go Piers all the way! There are a LOT of little thing that you don't see listed on the website that really add to the value of thier kit. Had I seen all the little things ahead of time I wouldn't have even bothered shopping around. I won't go into the differences that I saw during the install (don't know how much is proprietary info) but you should give Piers or Harry a call. The performance, spool, and temp drops I'm seeing are FAR beyond what I was expecting. I'm super picky also and the fit and finish are absolutely flawless. These twins are just unreal!



BTW, thanks to Jim Fulmer for answering all my questions and steering me in the right direction!



Richard

What question did he answer? Or did I miss something?