Being a Father (??)

[RUSSELL5000]

I have two sons.

My older son appears to be progressing well. He is a senior in high school this year, and has done well with his cross-country and track, although he is not a star athlete. He has done well with his school work, has determined that he will pursue chemical engineering in college, and has received merit scholarships. His scholarships and parental support will allow him to leave school with no debt. He needs to develop his interpersonal and leadership skills, but he has many years in which to do so and should have many opportunities. It is all up to him at this point, but if he continues to work hard then I believe he will be as well-positioned for the future as one can reasonably be (the problem being that we cannot see the future, so cannot be certain).

My younger son is a sophomore. He has stronger interpersonal and social skills than my older son, and has demonstrated he is every bit as capable academically. He plays soccer, and was JV team captain this year. The problem that I am having with my younger son is simply that, bluntly, he is lazy as can be. It is not that he is difficult to deal with; he does what we ask with no problem and is, overall, a really good kid. But, he does no more than the minimum required. This is reflected in his schoolwork as well as his soccer.

I have tried talking to him about the importance of identifying something he has interest, identifying something employable in the future that aligns with that interest, and working hard through the next years of his life to position himself well. I have pointed out that today people without college have median earnings that are roughly half of the median earnings of those with college. I have also tried to explain to him that the coming wave of increased automation enabled by artificial intelligence will drastically reduce the number of skilled jobs currently requiring education beyond high school as well as further reducing production jobs. Wages for those individuals that cannot problem-solve, create/design new things, and have specialized education will be stagnant or declining. I have tried to explain how difficult his life will be if he fails to apply himself, but it has been effective as talking to a brick wall.

He may be able to do well in life without going to college, but I find it increasingly difficult to foresee a path in which that is possible. In addition, I see no path at all with his current level of effort. E.g., one may be able to do well without college by operating his own business; however, if my son does not have enough ambition to do well at school then I don’t think he will have anywhere near the ambition to operate his own business (which I think requires much more work and is quite a bit more difficult in many ways than going to school for a profession). He could also develop a strong skill – again, in my view, requiring just as much (or more) effort.

My frustration is that I see many great possibilities for him if he would be willing to make the effort – more so than when I was his age. We have saved since before the birth of our children so that they could go through school and accumulate no debt. I believe we can still make that happen for him. However, I don’t want to flush that money down the toilet if he is not making an effort.

I want him to get some “fire in the belly” instead of doing something I tell him to. I am just kind of stumped as to how to get him there.

If someone has been down this road before I would welcome your experience.

 

[KATOOM]

As much as its important to be a father.....you also have to be a friend who can relate to their kids trials and tribulations which they face in life. Meaning, father first, friend second.....but both just as important. Its no coincidence that girls who have troubled lives also have father issues. And boys who have trouble with relationships tend to be missing something from their fathers.

Kids always explore their options as they grow but will commonly take the path or least resistance, so making sure you're the one who they can talk to and confide in is crucial to maintaining a common ground. And, be a good role model. Kids generally will unknowingly want to be like their parents because thats all they know. How common that sons take on the same carrier as their dads. So that said, if you're a lazy jerk then the odds are your kids will be lazy jerks too.

Just to relate, I was having a hard time getting one of my kids to see the level of importance in acquiring a college education because in their mind dad was successful without a degree.....so the same should apply to them in life. Seeing that I was loosing the battle, I actually signed up for college and went back to get my degree so that I not only had it but that I proved I could do it.....and so could they.

Dont worry too much. As long as you dont screw up your kids too much, they tend to right side themselves and figure things out. Unfortunately Hollywood and TV tends to portray that everyone hates or is embarrassed of their parents but I think thats far from reality.....and is kinda sad that they lead people to think that way. Family should be everything.

 

[mweiman]

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”
Mark Twain

Is he working anywhere part time? Sometimes I think it helps to get a little exposure and experience to make you realize what you want to do and maybe equally as important what you don't want to do.

 

[Wayne M.]

Having two, 13 and 16, one of each, it's incredible how different in personality they are. Similar to yours Russell. I have a gut feel that the 13 just will not be college material, but it's too soon to tell.

 

[TFucili]

My son just turned 18. While his interests are basically diametrically opposite of mine(hasn't even bothered to get driving permit), he is very respectful and polite to others, and he does pretty well in school. When I look at what other people go through, I count my blessings. I try to lead by example, and offer whatever guidance I can, but in the end it is up to him.

 

[Deleted member 995608]

Some kids can be late bloomers. Hopefully those late bloomers will at a minimum, attend a JC to get the basic ed classes out of the way. Along the way, maybe they'll discover their passion....

It's too bad so many HS's have abandoned shop classes and home ec classes. Those classes taught basic life skills like using your hands to build and repair, balance a check book, how to cook etc.

 

[Wayne M.]

It's too bad so many HS's have abandoned shop classes and home ec classes. Those classes taught basic life skills like using your hands to build and repair, balance a check book, how to cook etc.

Exactly. I went to a vocational HS, one that, for the boomers, launched so many careers around here. By the time I got there, things were paring down, but I was able to get a diploma similar to that Lincoln tech gives out today as a 2-3 year diploma. Today it's a shadow of that but I was ready to turn wrenches when I left there.
I went to conference at my sons school that was built in the 80's, and while a regular zone HS, had shops too. One of his academic classrooms was an electrical shop originally. Took me a while to figure it out.
The gripe I have is that it seems that college has become a business for those who run it, rather than a resource to start careers.

 

[TFucili]

The gripe I have is that it seems that college has become a business for those who run it, rather than a resource to start careers.

Bingo. The ultimate guilt-trip scam.

 

[Jim W]

Russell5000

I have three children two boys and a daughter. All three have turned out wellbut when they were in high school it was a very different for two of them. Myoldest was a car/truck nut and that was all he cared about in fact if it wasn'tfor the 79 Ford Bronco, I do not think he would have graduated from highschool. Boy, did we have the arguments in high school, I had to take awaythe keys to the Bronco for him to study. BTW he still has the Bronco in hisgarage. He is now a union pipefitter/foreman, for a very large mechanicalcompany in the Chicago area.

My other son was totally different loved sports and high school. Captain of thefootball team, on the homecoming court good student. He wanted toplay football in college and we had no issues at all with him. He is now aunion plumber working for the state of IL.

Now my daughter who is a teacher in the English Second Langue departmentfor one of the middle school in the area teaching science to kids.Will if you had asked me if she would have gone this route in high school Iwould have laughed in your face. No way was see ever going to goto graduate from high school at all and then go on to college, in myhumble opinion. She hated high school and did not participate in any thing inhigh school, all of the teachers were comparing her to her brothers and shehated that. Once she went to JR college she loved it she was away from thecomparison and she was her own person. She graduated phi beta kappa froma JR college and then from a 4-year university with a master in secondaryeducation.

So, what I guess I am saying is that they all turn out for the best, but itwill take some time. With good parents behind them helping when need andguiding by example the kids will turn out and be productive adults. Yourhair will just turn Gray that all.

 

[Deleted member 995608]

HS's need to push for continuing education after HS, not necessarily push for 4 state or UC. A lot of parents lack the knowledge to set their child up academically at the beginning of HS to create a rock solid path to a state or UC school. Not everyone will obtain a bachelors or masters and that's okay. What's not okay, or unfortunate for lack of a better term is living life working a job that chose them.

 

[RUSSELL5000]

Thanks, all; I appreciate the perspective of those that have been down the road before and good to hear that the positive results.

I think it is too bad that shop and practical life education things have been removed from school. In my area the budget has driven those reductions. I note that it is gone as well in another school district flush with cash, however. I know we are teaching my older son at home how to do laundry, how to cook something, what a checking account is, etc.; i.e., the basics of taking care of himself.

I agree that college has, in many cases, become a business interested in perpetuating itself rather than providing training and opportunity to young people. Thankfully, this is not everywhere. I recently went on a visit day with my older son. At the start of the day the program the president of the school addressed the group. he said that he wanted everyone to bear in mind key three objectives: (1) Work hard and get done in four years, (2) Use good judgment and find a good balance between interest and employment possibilities so that you leave at the end of four years with a job in hand, and (3) Leave in four years with no debt or as little as possible. He said he also wanted everyone to expand their horizons, learn about themselves, and so on and so forth, but college is a serious, costly undertaking and you have to accomplish these three goals. Obviously, I share the perspective.

It sounds like my younger son fits some of the descriptions above. He has never been a “problem” or “in trouble.” We have never had to deal with serious things that I have heard some have (e.g., a person I know had their 16 year old set the house on fire smoking dope in the house while they were out one evening - almost everything ruined by the time the fire department arrived and put it out, although nobody hurt.) I am quite thankful for that.

An example perhaps explains what I see as the problem and my frustration. My sons go to a college preparatory high school which is competitive entry. If you get below a 70 for the complete year grade in a required class then you “fail out”. This means that rather than attending that high school the next year you have to attend the “regular” high school in the district. In his freshman year he did not like his English teacher, and made no effort in the class. We dealt with him all year and he stubbornly refused to make an effort. At the beginning of May he had a 68. I told him he would be going to a new school the next fall. He did not believe me and talked to the school counselor, who verified that was the case. He wants to be with his friends at that school, and so he “miraculously” generated scores in the middle to high 90s during May to pull his overall score for the year up to a 73.

So, I know he can do well if he chooses to do so.

My older son had the same teacher as a freshman and a junior. He did not like her either. However, his grades for each of the two years were in the high 90s. I asked him about this, and he said that she was actually the teacher he cared for least out of all of his teachers. However, he said she was clear about what she wanted the kids to learn and what she expected them to do. He did it, and got a good grade.

My older son obviously has a far more mature attitude. I have tried to explain to my younger son that he will deal with people that he does not like throughout his life, and that liking has nothing to do with getting the job done. Doesn’t seem to sink in.

So, my younger son is running a C+ to B-. Not a “problem”, but far from what he is capable of. Also, far from what is needed to expand the opportunities available to him.



One thought that occurs to me is to get him to not go to college after high school and let him experience the fun he will have trying to find a job and live on what he will be able to make. I realize he is at the stage at 16 years old when his father knows nothing. Maybe that experience will result in some motivation.

 

[jgillott]

What an interesting topic to find today. I guarantee you that everyone of us that have more than one child have asked ourselves more than once why our kids are so different.

I have 2 daughters that are just shy of 10 years apart in age. Our oldest has been ultra competitive since she was very young. We spend 6 out of 7 days a week with her running between competitive gymnastics, travel softball, and archery shoots. Our youngest, at least at this point, is perfectly content sitting on the couch with me sharing a bowl of popcorn while watching a movie.

I'm sure that it will change for the both of them as time goes on. But for now, it is really awesome to see how different their personalities are. My only hope for them is to remain happy in whatever they choose to do.

 

[promisedland]

Good advise everyone, I enjoyed the read.

 

[Wayne M.]

Good advise everyone, I enjoyed the read.

S'not over yet.

You can do a first class job of Fathering and then have it all unravel in college or even in the military. I've seen it happen in both scenarios.
I was just doing my daily scan of social media, and I came across the phrase "Education Malpractice" regarding acquiring a good education. How great is that?

 

[KenHwy61]

S'not over yet.

You can do a first class job of Fathering and then have it all unravel in college or even in the military. I've seen it happen in both scenarios.
I was just doing my daily scan of social media, and I came across the phrase "Education Malpractice" regarding acquiring a good education. How great is that?

That is very true. I really thought I did do a good job fathering and my kids were great while at home but all the trouble started after they got out into the "world". My oldest started drinking while in the air force and continued heavily after he was discharged. He dug himself a pretty deep hole. Thankfully he is sober now. My middle son went off to college and was in drug addiction treatment a year later and is struggling to get back on his feet. You can do everything you believe is right but ultimately your kids will make their own choices. Just try to set the best possible fatherly example and hope in the long run they will come back to the values you instilled.

 

[Wayne M.]

Ken I am so scared of that. All you can do is lead by example until a certain point. My Dad was pretty good on the up n up, but it was losing an uncle- who I idolized- to Heroin that still has me as a tea totaler.

 

[jgillott]

Ken I am so scared of that. All you can do is lead by example until a certain point. My Dad was pretty good on the up n up, but it was losing an uncle- who I idolized- to Heroin that still has me as a tea totaler.

I think that we all worry too much. Other than doing our best, living a good life, and surrounding our children with opportunities, the only thing left is to love them. We can't do anything else.

 

[RUSSELL5000]

jgillot makes a point here that I realized I am struggling with. I want my younger son to have a good life and I see him making mistakes that reduce the likelihood of that. I want to "fix" that, and I am having a hard time accepting that the only person that can "fix" anything for him is himself.

My faith is so shallow. Intellectually, I know that all that is possible is to do the best I can and offer up my concerns and cares to God; intellectually I understand Jesus' parable of the birds of the air and the futility of worry. However, everything other than my intellect wants to "fix" this.

As mentioned, they will make their own choices and their own lives. I suppose that my acceptance of this fact needs as much or more "fixing" as my younger sons' choices.

 

[KenHwy61]

Letting go of adult children is very difficult especially when you can see the road they are on is not a good one. My wife has literally driven herself to the point of depression with the endless worry of what our adult boys will do next. Only recently has she been more able to leave it in God's hands and by doing that I have seen her feel better. You will never stop being a parent and I think it is wise to continue to give your kids sound advice but don't beat yourself up when they decide not to follow it. Some people just have to go through trials and tribulations before they really figure it out and realize maybe the old man wasn't such a fool after all.

 

[KATOOM]

I think that we all worry too much. Other than doing our best, living a good life, and surrounding our children with opportunities, the only thing left is to love them. We can't do anything else.

jgillot makes a point here that I realized I am struggling with. I want my younger son to have a good life and I see him making mistakes that reduce the likelihood of that. I want to "fix" that, and I am having a hard time accepting that the only person that can "fix" anything for him is himself.

My faith is so shallow. Intellectually, I know that all that is possible is to do the best I can and offer up my concerns and cares to God; intellectually I understand Jesus' parable of the birds of the air and the futility of worry. However, everything other than my intellect wants to "fix" this.

As mentioned, they will make their own choices and their own lives. I suppose that my acceptance of this fact needs as much or more "fixing" as my younger sons' choices.

So much truth in these last three posts..... (forgot to quote one)

But still, I also feel that there's more to just doing what we "think" is best as a parent. Parents HAVE to understand who your competition is.

Every generation is different in some way that the past, but what kids face today is unrealistic compared to what history has dealt most of us. Yes, liberal propaganda has always been a problem but today schools do whatever they want and teachers teach however they want. For sake of work schedules and convenience, we're giving up control of our kids to people who have ulterior motives in the overall outcome of their lives. Its no secret that most topics today circle around alternative lifestyles telling all ages of kids that they can be or act whatever they feel like that day. They're force-feeding entitlement making kids feel like society owes them something for nothing. Constantly making them believe that everyone is racist and against each other. Not to mention sex is EVERYWHERE and readily available on every electronic device they carry around daily. And somewhere in that mix, kids are taught that parents are dumb and should be avoided at all costs.....

As I mentioned previously, I attended college late in life. And the agenda the colleges and professors have everyday and in every class was enough to scare the tar out of me!!!!! Its no wonder kids come out of college totally brainwashed and seek out safe places. The experience was like nothing I was ever expecting and gave me reason to speak out letting these professors know that there's someone attending their class who was NOT going to follow their bandwagon of mind warping manipulation.

So you can provide them with everything good and all the opportunities but unless they can connect with you on a level which squashes out the "competition", you're in for a fight like no other.....