Best Transmission Mods?

[Bob Wagner]

Bill is hard at work

Bill and Crew are back at the "Thunder of Muncie" enjoying the TDR events and all that holy smoke



When you have a product that commands a lot of attention the Events are never ending



There will be many post in regards to the "Thunder in Muncie" watch the Boards the TDR Members will be posting soon.



I wish Dave the best on his fishing trip. Maybe Dave will post some pictures.



EDIT here is alink to the "Thunder in Muncie"





http://www.gltdr.org/

 

[John]

Originally posted by Dieselnerd

my new converter since there is only about a 300 RPM drop when it locks up at WOT.

Congratulations Dieselnerd, however, after driving countless Rams that have had modified transmissions, I feel my DTT 93% TC/VB combination is by far and away the best combination going! In fact, my rpm drop into O/D lockup is only 50 rpm! I have driven BD modified transmissions (my own) and Sun Coast modified transmissions and there is NO comparison.



As for TC effeciency, I'm able to drive up the gravel road (uphill) to my place. . AT IDLE with my DTT combination! The ineffeciency of my BD TC would allow my Ram to just sit stationary at idle under the same test. I challenge anyone to find a more effecient TC than the DTT 93% model!



PS: call Lawerence Bolton (owner of Diesel Dynamics) and ask him which TC HE likes best... and why.



The steel stator is the best thing going. Period. The only thing better would be a stator made of either titanium or carbon fiber. Look what all racing TCs use as a stator material... STEEL. Why, because it is the best material for the application (unless price is ABSOLUTELY NO object).



As for warranty, Bill Kondolay's word is better than ANY piece of paper! It is absolute pure gold! For any of you that have read any of my past posts regarding my DTT upgrade you know what I'm talking about. Bill and DTT are beyond reproach.

 

[Dieselnerd]

John, thanks for your inspiring testimonial. I ask you this: Under what conditions do you get the 50 RPM drop? WOT? Towing? Uphill? Flat? I can get less than 50 RPM drop if I drive a certain way, in fact I can get no drop if I take it really easy. I also see you have a 98 1/2 which means 24 valve. 24 valves defuel at lockup so your comparison is flawed when compared to a 12 valve which never lets up power until you do. Mine is a 12 valve. If Bill K. would sponsor an unbiased test of his TC against others on a test stand with all factors being equal then we would have something to compare to. I asked him to loan a stator or TC to Dave G. for an unbiased test. Bill never replied or answered yes or no for whatever reason. Dave G. told me he would be happy to conduct such a test on his equipment and anyone could watch. Until then, all I know is you paid more but can't prove you got more. I'm not trying to put down your purchase or the countless other Dodges you drove, or all the people that like DTT, all I'm saying is there is no proof until all the variables are extracted.

 

[Extreme1]

Whoa, hold on a second!

Before we start an arguement second hand (Dave and Bill are both off enjoying themselves), lets let them respond!



I would like to see a comparison on a transmission dyno. I suspect that both guys (if they agree to it) would like to be there. I expect Bills to be more efficient at most if not all RPMs. But really the question is how much more efficient and at what RPMs?



As for the steel vs aluminum debate, race convertors are turning a little more than 3,000 or 4,000 RPMs. I don't think the stator in my truck is flexing enough to make an appreciable difference in its efficiency. If it was, the OEMs would jump on steel stators to gain fuel efficiency!



As for buying the best, if you really wanted the "best" diesel powered truck on the road with an automatic, why didn't you get a crew cab midrange truck, an Allison transmission, an 8. 3 Cummins and add a pickup box to give it "street credibility"? Cost? Duh! Read my sig, what is my truck worth? Think I can justify 1100 bananas to merely upgrade my trans?



Sorry I blew up. Thanks, I feel better now!



Flame away!

 

[Dieselnerd]

Well, I've done some thinking since my earlier post. I tend to get slightly upset when it's apparent we are not comparing apples to apples with all the variables involved and I may have been a little heavy on the sarcasm. I doubt there will ever be a head to head comparison between the two but it would be interesting. Dave told me he doesn't post much any more because he doesn't like all the arguments and so forth when discussing transmission mods. (Arguments? No... Really?) He said he tried to educate people with facts but that just seemed to bring on more arguments and he just got tired of it. If you do a search on goerend you can see what he used to post. As far as efficiency goes, Dave told me at the time I was having him modify my transmission that he thought that Bill K's TC was probably more efficient than his own milled stator TC. That being said, he also said the question was: how much more efficient was it? Dave was of the opinion that the percentage difference might be small enough that most people would not notice a difference in most applications. He qualified this by saying he does understand TC's and did study the stator design used by Bill K. in his units. Since I started this discussion I've seen a lot of very strong opinions. There is no question in my mind that DTT makes a very good TC. If they didn't we would have heard about it by now, instead all I hear are loyal supporters. I am also happy with my TC and I have never heard a single complaint about Goerend either. Which is better? Does it really matter? Without definitive proof we only have our opinion and like most we want to feel we made the best decision.

 

[Bob Wagner]

WTF????

Dieselnerd <b>You</b> keep bringing this TTT



Let it go... Your happy... I am Happy...



Everything if Fine

 

[Guest00]

If the guys w/ Goerend T/C's keep saying if you have an old truck ( near as I can tell, 98 or older ) they are not worth putting money in to to try and keep them as bullet proof as possible. This may be true if the truck and it is not what you would call a front line unit.

We can all go to DTT's site and see what the cost of that unit is, but how much is the Goerend milled stator ????. Milled stator tc's for HIGH PERFORMANCE, close tollerance racing applications are $300 to $350. Given that, then add another $100 because he has a job shop and not a high volume factory then I would figure about $450 max.

I have no problem with the better than stock performance of even a $500 milled stator as long as the buyer is aware of the differences.



Customer support is very important and it sounds like Dave Goerend is a straight up guy and takes care of his cusomers.



It is a matter of choice. Which one you choose is your decision and should be based on as much correct technical information as you can obtain and the aformentioned cost of upgrading an older high mileage truck before the choice is made.



Competition is good for every one.

 

[Mule]

Trans. Mods.

I agree with your resonse Diesel nerd I do not post very much as you can see by my post numbers mostly because I type with one finger but I have a free hour and thought I would put my 2 cents worth in What I think is so really neat is all the info we get from a site like this if were not for this site how many modifications or tips would a person hear about or read about in a magazine? I live in the nothern central US and it used to seem like we heard about things a year after they happened, not any more. We are talking about thr Best of the Best here, the top trans. guys in the US and Canada and from the testimonys for each They are both good, its no different than Ford vs. Chevy everyone has there favorite. I can only speak for myself that doesnt mean yours or anyone elses opinion is right I do know that Goerand Bros. are the best that I have ever worked with. If you lived in our area and needed a bulletproof trans you went to them we have ran their trans behind the Chevys long before Dodge had a Cummins in their trucks, and they were considered bulletproof I have spend hours and days learning about trans and converters with Dave he is a stand up guy to take the time to explain things to me, but thats my opinion and from all the posts Bill K is the same type of person that takes care of his customers when I called or E-mailed him he always took the time to respond which says alot for him I have only rode in trucks with Goerands converters and have not had the oppertunity to drive or ride in one of Bill K. I would really like to so. if any of you in the central US around Minneapolis has one I would like to hook up with you then I would know which is the best for Me and gives Me the most bang for my buck

 

[John]

Diesel Nerd, yes I have a 24v, AND NO I don't have a defueling "problem" (see sig again for performance details). I have a 50 rpm drop at all but WOT (or close) and that is due to a system that won't allow lockup under full throttle. That's why my DTT TCC will live where others won't. BTW, the early 24v engines did not defuel at lockup, I believe that "feature" was added in '01 when they bumped up the HP for the auto. equipped Rams.



I'll tell you what Diesel Nerd, if you were to drive my Ram I think you would be more than a little surprised. As stated in my last post, don't believe me or countless hundreds who are very happy DTT customers (MANY of them previous BD, Sun Coast, and Dunrite customers), call Lawrence Bolton of Diesel Dynamics (one of the most respected names in Diesel performance) and ask for his opinion... he has personally tested more transmission combinations than you could ever imagine... see what he says.



I would also doubt Bill would send one of his stators to another manufacturer for reverse engineering, oops!, I mean "unbiased" testing. If he had the time to be present during testing maybe that would entice him. I doubt it unless all other converter manufacturers were represented. If you'll remember, he tried to do just that at May Madness and he had NO takers.

 

[John]

Re: Whoa, hold on a second!

Originally posted by Extreme1

I don't think the stator is flexing enough to make an appreciable difference in its efficiency. If it was, the OEMs would jump on steel stators to gain fuel efficiency!

No flame suit (or flame retardant) needed Extreme 1. Anyway, I don't think the OEMs would jump all over the extremely effecient TCs as drivability is somewhat compromised after you reach a certain point. That's the main reason Bill doesn't like to sell the 93% TC, instead, favoring the 91% TC. There are a few of us though that don't mind dealing with the increased harshness to gain the effeciency. I have driven many 91% DTT equipped Rams, they all drove well, I just prefer my 93% TC.



The main thing is this, are you happy with the way your transmission functions?

 

[Ramafid]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but anyone who would drive Bill K's truck would be impressed. I did at Muncie and WOW! One person who just purchased a performance TC was so impressed that he bought Bill's TC that day! He thought he had a great setup until he drove Bill's truck. I know this debate could go on and on and I don't want to offend anyone, just posting what I know.

 

[Driftwood Ram]

Re: Re: Whoa, hold on a second!

Originally posted by John







The main thing is this, are you happy with the way your transmission functions?

YES!!!!!!

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Dieselnerd,



Maybe I wasn’t making myself perfectly clear on my previous posts.

Let me re-phrase what I said and clear up any confusion as to how I feel about Dave’s opinion on my stator design or tc for that matter.



From your posts I gather you are happy with your purchase from Goerend. GOOD FOR YOU.

Now having said that let me clarify something for you , I don’t give a fig what Dave thinks of my product as he is not qualified to comment on my theory , or my stator or tc, especially if as you say after studying my stator he thinks they would perform even close to the same.



You see he and I have been over many transmission issues in the past, and based on his own words and responses and subsequent actions it has become very apparent to me he does not fully comprehend the concept. You and Dave can take my comments anyway you wish and do with it as you see fit.



Now lets address honesty while we are at it, I have a copy of an email you sent to one of my customers quoting Dave a few weeks ago. Seems to me based on your email that Dave’s tricks are the same as before, just behind closed doors now, and perhaps using a spokesman, rather than confronting me or how is it you phrased it, “ arguing “ .



There is nothing to be gained by getting into an argument with you or Dave as this issue is old news, we do what we do , and milled is milled, Dave can continue his milling, as that is his choice to make. Dave’s approval or comments on my stator or converter are of no particular significance or importance to me.



I refuse to discuss vicariously through you Dave’s views as he has out and out lied before on this very website to these members and couldn’t back it up, how about this one for an example ,



ie) the lockup system could handle the power of the Cummins with his new special converter, the one you alluded to , the double disc clutch , remember he stated and posted data to substantiate the false statements, what happened to the consumers that believed that propaganda back then, Dave has posting privileges , if he has something to say he knows where to find me.



Let me see if I remember some more of Daves words correctly, Dunrite, BD, Suncoast , Protorque and all the other milled stator companies promoting forced lockup is where Dave recommended guys should go. What happened those consumers that trusted Dave’s opinion back then and followed his advice. Does he refund their money when they were unsatisfied, say it is so, I got a list for you. How about you, are you writing the cheque?



Now you want me to believe he no longer believes forcing lockup is a good idea, or is this just what he thinks consumers want to hear as DTT has now proved that you do not need lock up to transfer the power of the Cummins.



“Opinions and testimonials” I believe is how you put it from my customers, remember you are talking to guys that have tried both stators , just for the record , they are the only opinions that matter to me. We aren’t perfect, I will take my lumps like everyone else. I realize it is ultimately up to each consumer to decide what is best suited for him and his truck especially if he is choosing based on budget.



The milled stator died in the drag racing and performance industry over 15 years ago, for guys that wanted quality and maximum power transfer the steel stator was introduced, in the Diesel industry milled stators will always live on as the market is a vast one, and extremely profitable for the vendors who choose to mill the oem stator. Over 20 %of our business come from guys that have discarded their milled stator converter, as it couldn’t get the job done. I ask you , do you honestly think that if there was only a slight difference the consumers are nuts enough to spend their money all over again. ? Unless of course they are choosing the DTT tc because I am so charming, and politically correct (lol)



The DTT steel stator transfers 30-40% more power than any milled stator, maybe that is a slight difference in your opinion but it wasn’t slight to the guys that chose to spend the money twice. What about the guys that could only afford to have done the job once and listened to honest Dave, and are stuck with the milled stator tc , what happens to them now?



Bill Kondolay

Diesel Transmission Technology

 

[John]

EXCELLENT response Bill!!!!



You didn't even mention the use of old technology by "the other guy" (i. e. , Trans-Go TFOD Diesel shift kit) in their valve body enhancement... he!!, even BD is beyond that technology now (which pales in comparison to the DTT custom modified valve bodies).



Like I said before, if you want the very best go with DTT!



..... THE FIRST TIME!

 

[Joe G.]

Bill still has the best customer service on the planet in spite of being "charming, and politically correct ".

 

[Dieselnerd]

Bill:

It's obvious that my opinions upset you and some of the members. So be it. I don't believe I ever said anything bad about your converter or you. I never called anyone a liar. I did talk about my experience with Dave's converter and then of course the posts seemed to take on a life of their own. I don't know about you but I'm tired of this subject. The only thing that upsets me is the email thing. Like a good guy, I tried to answer every email question I received. It appears someone set me up by then forwarding my answer to you. Not too nice... . Thanks to whoever, I now have to be more careful in answering my mail. I am not Dave's spokesman by any stretch of the imagination and if I was not happy with his product you would have heard about that too. Consider this my last post in this thread.

 

[Bob Wagner]

Another lesson learned

Originally posted by Dieselnerd

Bill:

I don't know about you but I'm tired of this subject.

Lets look at who started this thread.



The truth will Always win in the end!

 

[446]

Although people who have met him say otherwise, if I had to judge Bill K by his posts I would say he was pretty arogant, (sorry Bill, I get accused of it all the time) But when it comes time to purchase a TC I'll be judgeing him on his customer satisfaction. I have yet to see a post saying "anything" derogatory about his product. Quite the contrary, I've seen nothing but praise.

When I get a few extra lumps of coal I'll be buying Bill K. His customers made a beleiver out of me. ( of course he may not sell me one now)

Buy the way. Thanks for the great deal on the injectors.



Ray

 

[goerend]

bill,

i guess we are in the same boat if you are calling me a lier for thinking and saying that more converter clutch lining is better you probably forgot that you also said that. it was on 4-21-00 in the pressure loc vs tst valve body kit post. you said

the sun coast converter is a well built converter, the extra lining is a plus.

you said it again on 6-20-00 here you say in the post AT SLIP IN LOCK UP i believe that the reason sometimes that the aftermarket converter holds better in lock up is they increase the surface area. so that puts us in the same lying boat as i see it.



i suppose if you say it then take it back you call it r&d if i say it and then find out that it isnt so you call that lying.



by the way, anyone who was intreasted in that converter was told that i was not happy with it and it was not sold.



that all being said there still may be some unforseen advantages of the dual lining but we will have to use some to find out r&d like you say.





as far as giving an opnion on your stator, because i have never seen nor driven one remember i have no need to as the properly milled version of mine has stood the test of time and proven to be reliable and cost effective

anyway when dieselnerd asked if i would install one of yours i said sure i have no problem with that he then got back to me and wanted to know what i thought of it. i told him that i have never seen nor driven one so i could only base an opnion on what it looks like it looks like a copy of a chrysler stator in an overdrive trans the 518 behind a v-6 the casting number on this stator for anyone who wants to go to a converter shop and see it for yourself is 4567599 this is the number that is cast on the back of the stator this is the bearing style the thrust washer style is casting number 4431 133 . because these stators work good i could only assume yours worked good also and this is what i e mailed to anyone who asked me about it.



and yes bill i do understand how they work all you or anyone else has to do is get a copy of the sae book design practices of automatic transmissions prox $120 plus freight its all there in black and white. you know, they even talk about how they use dynos to check and verify things and sometimes the numbers are wrong as proven by the dyno. buy the book and read it you will see.



for all the people you hope did not listen to me back then i sure hope they stop listening to you when it comes to converter drain back. remember when you told them last winter that it is normal to take 2 minutes to warm your trans before it would move and not slip, i simply told them they were low on fluid and this cured the problem several e mailed me and confirmed this.



for a 20 plus year vetern of the trans industry i would think you would be able to spot a low fluid condition by the symptoms and give accurate advice. i did not respond to you sooner becasue i was swamped fixing these units that were run as much as 2 and 3 qt. low on fluid because you had these guys believing that it was normal to take 2 minutes before they would move or 2 minutes before they would not hesistate going around corners at slow speed. would you like to pay for some of these?????





bill you replied to the post NEW transmission SHIFT KIT your post 11-03-00 said the difference between your dtt converter and the milled stator tc is THE HARDER YOU PUSH THE STEEL STATOR (THE ONE THAT LOOKS LIKE THE CHRYSLER 4567599) THE STRONGER IT BECOMES. but when bd said this same thing of their new x stator you said it can't be why can yours do the impossible as you say but not theirs?????



please let the rest of us know when it is ok for us to talk out of both sides of our mouth like you do. or should we just shut up and try to figure out what you really mean when you say one thing one day and a different thing a year later while we wait for the truck to warm up-------we need something to do for thoes 2 minutes. i still cant believe that one you must have had some extra inventory to sell because i am sure you know better than to think that was normal. at least i thought you knew that. get the book.



i am sure you will find a way to twist things once more don't hold you breath for a speedy reply i am busy fixing thoes trannies that were run low.

 

[John Berger]

Man am I glad I got a 5 speed

Look at all of the fun I'm missing