Better RV Brands?

[THoltz]

Quote "By the way, THoltz, most Arctic Fox and Nash are also 4 star rated, in the RV Consumer Group guide, not just certain models as stated. "



I have the 2010 RVCG guide, and most but not all Artic Fox is 4 start rated. I was surprised to see the 32-5-S suffered from a poor highway handling rating, while the 36 ft models did not. I believe the 29-5-T had the highest highway rating.

 

[Matt42]

Play-Mor

Well, I'll chime in with a brand that hasn't been mentioned here, good or bad. Play-Mor. Apart from seeing them on the highways, I first ran across them in the middle 1970s when I was doing mobile home work in the L. A. area. Play-Mor trailers were often used as the "retreat and make-up" trailers for the second-line actors at studio back lots and on location. The trailers weren't necessarily fancy inside or out, but they held up well to years of hard use.



A number of years later, I ran across them again, this time when an employer bought a batch of five of them in about 27 foot lengths for field use. Those trailers got rough use in deserts and mountains, on paved and gravel roads, and stood up well. Really well. (The Play-Mor that was assigned to me got used three years in a row for a college field class library in the desert. ) One of them was caught in a freak windstorm headed down Cajon Pass into San Bernardino, and it blew over on its right side. (I wasn't there for that incident. ) The hitch popped off the ball, but the chains stayed attached. With some assistance, the crew got the trailer righted and re-hitched, and it made the rest of the trip to Riverside and then El Centro without incident. It was in use for some weeks before it got repaired. The entry door worked, not well, but it worked.



I moved on to Arizona, where I bought a Yukon by Wilderness & Fleetwood of my own. It was a learning experience. I will leave that subject there. PM me for the gory details.



Soon after we bought the 1996 Dodge, we bought a new 1996 Play-Mor 2350 Aero travel trailer, which has been 99. 99% trouble free. Play-Mor is a small outfit, and the last time I looked, they had only one factory, in Missouri. The units aren't necessarily fancy inside, though they can be ordered that way. For example, ours has sheet vinyl flooring throughout, except in the bedroom area. (I'm a geologist and we have two immense dogs, so vinyl flooring is a good thing. ) Where it was possible to do so, Play-Mor installed appliances and equipment that were one or two grades above the bare minimum that other manufacturers used. This has showed over the years. Only now am I having to replace the furnace motor. Cabinet latch problems showed up, in 2008.



As I mentioned, I used to do mobile home work. I did that to pay for college. It doesn't matter what brand of fifth wheel, travel trailer or mobile home you buy, all of them are going to use putty tape as a sealer when they build the thing. There's nothing wrong with that if it's done well. There are two kinds of putty tape. The cheapest kind is basically oil-impregnated clay. The other kind is butyl-rubber based, but slightly gooey. Oil-based tape is usually gray or very light tan in color. Oil based putty tape holds up long enough to get installed, and will seal for a few years. Then the oil based stuff will shrink and leaks will begin. These leaks are usually in places you can't see, until the framing rots enough for bulging to start. Butyl based putty tape doesn't dry out (even here in Arizona). Butyl-based putty tape is usually brilliant white, but it can be made in other colors to order. It won't shrink, and if it was installed right, butyl tape won't leak unless it is physically damaged.



Our Play-Mor was assembled with butyl tape. So were the Play-Mor trailers I dealt with in the 1970s and 1980s. My Yukon used oil-based putty tape. (I should have known better!) Butyl based putty tape costs about twice as much. So it will add $50 to $200 to the cost of a trailer, depending on the size and number of windows. You can't predict whether or not a trailer will use butyl based tape by its price. Expensive brands may be fancy on the surface, but inferior underneath where it can't be seen. The Play-Mor line, when I bought mine, was on the low end of medium price.



If you are going to buy a used used RV, there's a trick you can try to see if there have been leaks into the framing. This will only work where you can access some of the hex head, phillips head or No. 2 square drive screws used to hold on the siding or clearance lights, or some other part that goes into the framing. Take out several screws, one at a time, and inspect them. If they are rusted, water has gotten to them. If they are badly rusted, water has gotten to them and the wood has been soaked for long periods. If the rusted screws won't retighten, the wood is rotten.



Disclaimer: I don't get a commission from Play-Mor.

 

[Grizzly]

Matt, I too had heard nothing but good things about Play-Mor. I have never owned one, but I have known people that did. However, I hate to be the bear of bad news, but I looked up Play-Mor in my RV Consumer Group guide. The ratings are form 1997 to 2004. I assume they stopped manufacturing in 04. They are rated 2 to 2. 5 stars. Non were rated higher, some were rated lower. Play-Mor also made a Play-Mor Lite, PM Renegade, PM Sport and a PM Ultra Lite. They will only rate RV's 10 to 15 years back. Could be that your 96 was better rated.



Perhaps in the mid 70's they were much better built. RV manufactures often time have to find ways to produce their trailers cheaper to stay in business as the RV competition is extremely keen and the economy being what it is. Many RV manufactures are now out of business. Many manufactures are now using Chinese frames and axles. Most are using Chinese ST (junk) tires just to be competitive. There are still a few well made RV's, but you will pay for them. To quote an old saying, "You get what you pay for".



george

 

[Grizzly]

Grizzly

the ferrys can be very troublesome due to weather and mechanical issues that are prone to the JET BOATS or fast ferrys. I to am a lance camper fan I took mine up the Dalton Highway(HAUL road) and enjoyed a great time with my DW. on your next trip to ALASKA more importantly southeast Alaska PM me as I live 1 mile from the forest service camp ground in Juneau. My DW and I would love to entertain you for a meal.

and to close I would offer to the OP that the Nash product ie Arctic fox desert fox are excellent choices of RV and would be very high on my list to purchase if I were to purchase new. and of course to the OP factor the cost of new tires into your purchase price to replace those peske and puny 15 inch cheap tires that come with most trailers



Also check this site

Motorhome Magazine Open Roads Forum



this is a RV forum that is a wealth of RV knowledge probably more so than here on tdr

and that includes my self.



Good luck with your search



Chris

Chris. I'll take you up on that offer. Maybe this coming summer or the next summer depending on when my wife can take another 2 months leave from her work or when she can retire. I am retired, so I don't have a problem. I assume that DW means Dear Wife.



Thanks for the Motorhome Magazine Open Roads web site. I've already been on it and it's great. It's now in my favorites.



george

 

[mwilson]

After watching this thread go on for a couple of days I want in. :-laf:-laf



There is to me another few things to consider before you pull the trigger on a newer unit.



1) What are you going to use it for??



Fulltiming / Long Trips ??? If so, Harvey and Grizzly are dead on. Those units and those units only. Have witnessed the carnage from low and mid level units and it aint pretty.



Casual / Weekend Use??? Mid level unit may be fine as long as you know what you are in for. Tires should be addressed and upgraded before you sign the papers.

If you are in the 15" size get the best tire on there that you can. I have gone to the Goodyear Marathon which is not the best but I am a Goodyear Dealer and will fight an issue out with the Rep when he comes. That Marathon 15" tire is also run by Penske and Ryder on the rental trailers, car haulers and tow dollys. They are fairly tough, often curbed and overloaded as a rule.

CHECK AND UNDERSTAND the weight rating sticker on the trailer. If you don't understand it post it on here and we will help you understand the ramifications of ignoring it. Overloaded Chinese Axles will bite you in the A** if you force the weight rating of a marginal unit.



2) What is your particular skill level for maintainance??

There are people on here that can field strip and reassemble about anything so they can buy a trailer as I did that is mid level and get good use out of it because they can fix it.

If you don't know what a roll of butyl tape looks like or a leak in the unit means putting a towel to it for the summer so your socks don't get wet then buy the high end units only. You will not have a good experience with a lower grade unit as a rule.



3) If you feel that you can handle the repairs and maintain a borderline unit and are just going to use it close to home, go for it and save some money. The materials to repair these trailers are reasonably priced.

I changed my axles the first year, didn't cost much and only took a Saturday afternoon to do in the driveway. What an improvement!!!!!!! If any of you want to know how to order them, let me know. It is very simple and you only need to know the bearing combo for the hubs and be able to accurately run a Stanley tape measure. I took out the crappy Al-Ko axles with swiss cheese / tin foil tubes and put in a set of Dexters with a 1/4" wall tube. Amazing results, trailer towed altogether different.



I don't have a pile of money in this trailer and will get 10 years out of it, had it 5 years already. Will I get another Cougar??? NO. But my next one will go to Arizona and back every year so even I am not crazy enough to do that. I wil buy one that Harvey and Grizzly present as I will need a quality unit for that kind of duty. No question!!!



2nd picture is some of the repair materials that I have on hand and take with me in the summer. Have used this stuff in a campground to help me or a fellow camper several times.

 

[ChrisOlson]

YES
DW is dear wife I learned that the RV forums.

and the tires on my Forest river are Good year marathon tires as I said 12000 miles and only 1 flat. I am a good year fan whenever possible, But I run TOYOS on my dodge and would even consider a TOYO tire when I up grade to the 16 inch tires and wheels. on my forest river toy hauler

Have a good day

Chris

 

[Matt42]

Matt, I too had heard nothing but good things about Play-Mor. I have never owned one, but I have known people that did. However, I hate to be the bear of bad news, but I looked up Play-Mor in my RV Consumer Group guide. The ratings are form 1997 to 2004. I assume they stopped manufacturing in 04. They are rated 2 to 2. 5 stars. Non were rated higher, some were rated lower. Play-Mor also made a Play-Mor Lite, PM Renegade, PM Sport and a PM Ultra Lite. They will only rate RV's 10 to 15 years back. Could be that your 96 was better rated.



Perhaps in the mid 70's they were much better built. RV manufactures often time have to find ways to produce their trailers cheaper to stay in business as the RV competition is extremely keen and the economy being what it is. Many RV manufactures are now out of business. Many manufactures are now using Chinese frames and axles. Most are using Chinese ST (junk) tires just to be competitive. There are still a few well made RV's, but you will pay for them. To quote an old saying, "You get what you pay for".



george

I was afraid that might be the case. I haven't looked at a new Play-Mor in several years. I will need to do so now. As to tires, I'm afraid that any manufacturer who installs ST rated tires will be installing junk. You know my thoughts on that. having switched to Michelin LT tires years ago. I have checked out some RV shows in the Phoenix area, and I still maintain that high price is not always equal to high quality. It might be a guide, but it's not for sure. I have seen some expensive trailers that were fancy but were junk underneath. Stapled drawers, particle board where actual wood would be better, and ptty tape where butyl should be used.

 

[Grizzly]

mwilson,



When my wife and I were in the market for a new 5th wheel, we went to the only Arctic Fox dealer in Albuquerque, who also sold other brands like Cougar, Montana and other Keystone names. This dealer didn't push Arctic Fox (AF) much since they liked the Keystone names better. The only AF they had was a travel trailer, no 5th wheel. My wife was very impressed with the Cougars and Montana because they were fancy with plenty of foo foo decor inside. I had the chance to compare the Cougar and Montana side by side with the AF. I looked inside cabinets and inside storage compartments and I got under the trailers and compared frames and axles.



The AF had 12" I beam frame under it, which are made in their own Northwood Plant in La Grande, Oregon. They also use heavy Dexter axles. AF are made more rugged to withstand rougher roads like the Alcan Hwy and other roads in the Arctic. Quality and workmanship were clearly better on the Arctic Fox. We've had it for 2 years now and traveled many miles with no issues. We ordered it from a dealer near the La Grande, Oregon manufacturing plant and got the best price of any dealer in most the western half of the country.



george

 

[mwilson]

Grizzly,

We had an Artic Fox Dealer on the New Hampshire border for a few years and I had looked at them on a couple of occasions. I was very very impressed with the quality but the DW found the interior to be lacking as yours did. I think that she said that they looked a little "industrial".



We have had several trailers since, she is now a veteran RVer and has helped with some repairs due to shoddy workmanship that I have tackled over the years. I now firmly believe that when the time comes for a full time unit that "foo foo" will be way down on her list of wants. . :-laf:-laf



For close range RV'ing my bargain specials have served me well and I have learned volumes about campers. I offered the previous post to help those that need to know what they are getting into with the low and mid level units. You can get away with saving a buck if you are going to stay close to home and keep on top of the constant maintenance.



RV'ing is a hit with my family, children and grandchildren. It is deeply gratifying to see my son-in-law work his way up from a pop-up to a 30' tow behind and apply what he has learned from my wife and I to make that decision. HE KNEW WHAT TO LOOK FOR. Had us take a look before he bought it but we really didn't need to, he was on top of it. Kind of a nice feeling.

 

[Grizzly]

I was afraid that might be the case. I haven't looked at a new Play-Mor in several years. I will need to do so now. As to tires, I'm afraid that any manufacturer who installs ST rated tires will be installing junk. You know my thoughts on that. having switched to Michelin LT tires years ago. I have checked out some RV shows in the Phoenix area, and I still maintain that high price is not always equal to high quality. It might be a guide, but it's not for sure. I have seen some expensive trailers that were fancy but were junk underneath. Stapled drawers, particle board where actual wood would be better, and ptty tape where butyl should be used.

I totally agree. My Arctic is not exactly a high priced unit and it's not one of the cheaper ones either. It's certainly not one of the fancier 5th wheels, but it does have good fit and finish.



george

 

[FParisi]

Good posts with good info! It does depend how you'll use it - if it's 50mi to a campground once a year low end may suit well.

I had an Alfa - good unit, company out of business.

After research found a used Arctic Fox 24-5N. Part of what I was most interested in was the dry wt vs gross rating - the AF had a 4,000lb carry capacity which means, to me that it's built heavy duty.

I do not like the 15in tires but with them not at capacity AND keeping speeds down to 55 -65mph so far they're doing OK.

Sure liked the Michelin XPS ribs I had on the Alfa.

 

[Newf Limo]

I always thought it would be nice to put a Monaco in the front and my Ram in a custom garage on wheels on the back. Somehow, my budget keeps me in a pup tent. Chamapgne tastes, micro brew budget! :-laf

 

[Matt42]

Good posts with good info! It does depend how you'll use it - if it's 50mi to a campground once a year low end may suit well.

I had an Alfa - good unit, company out of business.

After research found a used Arctic Fox 24-5N. Part of what I was most interested in was the dry wt vs gross rating - the AF had a 4,000lb carry capacity which means, to me that it's built heavy duty.

I do not like the 15in tires but with them not at capacity AND keeping speeds down to 55 -65mph so far they're doing OK.

Sure liked the Michelin XPS ribs I had on the Alfa.

The Arctic Fox is an excellent unit, no question about it. I would buy one in a heartbeat. As for the tires. . . If you are using ST 205/75R15 C, you can upgrade to LT 215/75R15 C if you have room for about 1/2 inch more diameter and about 1/2 inch more width. You may need to get wider rims. The trailer rims are usually 5 1/2 inch wide, and the LT tires want 6 inch wide. I did this with my Play-Mor, and I am using Michelin LTX tires. But there are several good truck tire brands.



Alternately, for a bunch of money, you can replace the brake drums with six lugs, get 16 inch wheels, and run Michelin XPS Rib in LT 215/80R16E. They will be way over capacity for what you need, and you need to have wheel well space. But I think most Arctic Fox models have the space, based solely on my memory. It is also possible to have 16 inch wheels made for the 5 lug pattern of your current brake drums.

 

[Jim Smith]

good newmar

After what I thought was good research I bought a new 2007 Newmar and would probably not buy it again. Landing jacks stripped out on three different trips and would not raise the camper, black water tank won't drain, after two years, two of the slide out seals came off and needed replacement. Our previous $18K Fleetwood Prowler travel trailer held up much better than in the 5 years we had it than the $48K Newmar has in the 2 years we've had it. Maybe I just got a lemon!

It must be a bad one , mine is a 2000 35lksa model and its just fine. most folks that I have talked to have the same satisfaction as me.

 

[Grizzly]

After what I thought was good research I bought a new 2007 Newmar and would probably not buy it again. Landing jacks stripped out on three different trips and would not raise the camper, black water tank won't drain, after two years, two of the slide out seals came off and needed replacement. Our previous $18K Fleetwood Prowler travel trailer held up much better than in the 5 years we had it than the $48K Newmar has in the 2 years we've had it. Maybe I just got a lemon!

Peter, Did you get an 07 Kountry Aire or Cypress? If so they are rated 3 to 3. 5 stars, which is a good rating. Maybe you did get a lemon.

 

[EricBu12]

Anybody have an opinion on these new toyhaulers by gulfstream?

Saw this unit last year at an RV Show and was blown away at the swing away garage door inside... What a concept. . From wall style garage to full open or "wide open" living trailer... Claims to be pretty insulated and you can order it with dual glazed windows

Gulf Stream Coach :: Wide Open :: Overview

 

[mwilson]

Eric,

I saw 3 used Gulfstream fifth wheels at a dealers lot in NH this summer. Always thought that they were a well built brand but after a walk-around I was not so sure.



These 3 were 4-5 years old and they all had cracks in the gelcoat under the front slide, not just a surface fracture but deep cracks 4-6" long. They were staining black so I assume that the aluminum superstructure was cracked as well. Facing the closed slide the cracks started at the lower left corner and headed down toward the hitch at a 45 degree angle. :{



2 had the cushion style hitch and 1 did not so that didn't seem to help them any. Of course we don't know how they were treated, but 3 out of 3 is not a good average in my opinion.



Maybe they had a bad run that bothered but I would do some investigating before signing my name to one. I hate to bring it up in a way, but thought you should know about it. The concept of the trailer you are looking at looks great and the 3 that I looked at were not toy-haulers, just normal front bedroom fifth wheels. Just made me wonder how well they are reinforcing that critical area abve the fifth wheel hitch.



Mike

 

[Grizzly]

Eric,

I saw 3 used Gulfstream fifth wheels at a dealers lot in NH this summer. Always thought that they were a well built brand but after a walk-around I was not so sure.



These 3 were 4-5 years old and they all had cracks in the gelcoat under the front slide, not just a surface fracture but deep cracks 4-6" long. They were staining black so I assume that the aluminum superstructure was cracked as well. Facing the closed slide the cracks started at the lower left corner and headed down toward the hitch at a 45 degree angle. :{



2 had the cushion style hitch and 1 did not so that didn't seem to help them any. Of course we don't know how they were treated, but 3 out of 3 is not a good average in my opinion.



Maybe they had a bad run that bothered but I would do some investigating before signing my name to one. I hate to bring it up in a way, but thought you should know about it. The concept of the trailer you are looking at looks great and the 3 that I looked at were not toy-haulers, just normal front bedroom fifth wheels. Just made me wonder how well they are reinforcing that critical area abve the fifth wheel hitch.



Mike

The name Gulfstream must be new on the 5th wheel market again. The newest one on my RV Consumers Guide is a 1996. They are rated from 1 to 2 stars, which is not at all impressive. I assume the toyhauler in question is a 09 or 10 model. They may be better now, but I'd be cautious.



george

 

[mwilson]

Just did a quick search on the net while throwing down a sandwich and did find some used Gulfstreams dating back to 2003, a few 2006 models as well. What really jogged my memory was that they make Prairie Schooner and I believe that was the model of all 3 that I looked at. It surprised me that what I had always thought was a high end model had that kind of fatigue, and 3 in a row to boot.



They looked just like this one below.....

 

[Grizzly]

mwilson,



Yes, they are made by Gulfstream and are rated a little better, 2 to 2. 5 stars. They don't make a toyhauler however.



george