?? BLUE smoke at morn, owner be warned??

[Scrmbld4X4]

Seems the ol' girl has developed a new bad habit. On cold starts in the morning it fogs the neighbor hood. The exhaust is definitely BLUE!!! Only happens first start of the day. Doesn't matter how long it sits, overnight or a week. It smokes until you drive it, revving the motor has no effect. Loading it by driving is the only way to clear it up.

On a similiar note, when loading the Jeep with the truck warming you can't stand to be any where near the exhaust plume. Burns your eyes, like a gasser thats way rich.

Out of all the diesels in our group mine is the only one that does either of these things. Was parked between an 01 2500 and a 00 2500 last trip and neither one smoked blue or had the "rich" exhaust burn your eyes smell.

So what to tell DC when I take it in??? Not looking forward to the run around.

 

[Runaway]

Any "bomb" additions, my "99" had a richer exhaust look with an original VA. When I took it off, no more smoke... ?

 

[Fireman Dave]

I have the same exact thing. Mine started to do this when it was a couple of months old. It only does it on that first start of the day. If the block heater is plugged in, it's not as bad, but ambient temp. isn't a factor. It does it in 70 degree weather too. If the grid heater cycles (making the wait to start light stay on longer), it won't do it.

My dealer didn't have an answer for it. A thread I had going on here last summer didn't really produce an answer either, although cold cylinder temp. seems to be the most likely cause. The general feeling I got was that it's okay and nothing to worry about. Some trucks don't do it, though. That's what bugs me. If it's normal, why don't they all do it? And why didn't mine do it from the beginning? It seemed to start around the time of my first oil change (at 2400 miles), but I can't see how that would be related to it.

The truck runs great and is totally stock. I've just accepted it, but I still wonder a little bit. My garage looks like it's on fire on that first start of the day! #ad


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2001 2500; SLT; 4x4; QC; LWB; Auto; 3. 54 LS; 265s; Camper; Tow; Sliding Rear Window; Travel Convenience Group; Cab Clearance Lamps; Forest Green

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

It's possible that your intake heater grids aren't working. When you start your truck do you see the infamous dimming lights? Watch your voltmeter too - it should dip and rise after startup for approximately 2 minutes or up to 20 mph. If that isn't happening then your heater grids aren't working and could explain it.



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-Steve St. Laurent - President of the Great Lakes TDR
'98 QC LB (CMNSPWR), 4x4, ISB, 5sp, 4. 10 LSD, TST Powermax, 275hp RV injectors, Joe Donnelly modifed Sachs Clutch, custom ladder bars, SW fuel pressure gauge, BD exhaust brake, Isspro turbo temp monitor, front Draw-Tite receiver, rear Draw-Tite class V receiver, BFG 285/75R16 AT KO's, (all the common stuff clipped)

 

[Todd T]

my 01 does it and my 95 did it worse, it would idle real rough for a few seconds. its just at startup and before it is driven, i tend to believe it is just a habit of a cold a$$ motor trying to warm up.

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Todd,
2001 Q-cab SB 4x4 5spd 3. 55's, A pillar Boost/EGT,Jardines 4" turboback kit, and more to come...

 

[Pete Peterson]

Steve is correct, if your heater grids not working it will smoke in the morning. Even if you plug your truck in at night the heater grid will cycle after starting for a minute or two. Pete

 

[Fireman Dave]

Another thing. When I get the big cloud of blue smoke, I also get a little stumble or hiccup when it first fires. Again, this doesn't happen when my wait to start light stays on or when its plugged in. I guess I only have this happen when the temp is over 60 degrees, thus the grid heater doesn't cycle at that temp.

 

[Bad340fish]

Mine has only fogged the nieghborhood once. I needed to move it, it was about 20* and i had a gasser flashback. Hopped in hit the key without waiting for the light to go out. It lit right off just fine but sounded odd and smoked like all h*ll. A few seconds later after the heaters ran a bit it cleared up and sounded normal again. I know my old PSD work truck would have cranked the batteries dead doing that #ad

Clark

 

[Guest00]

What brand of oil are you guys with cold smokers using?????

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Scrmbld4X4

You don't say whether you truck has the stock injectors , or is not broken in yet. How cold is it outside when it smokes? Is your truck block heater plugged in?

We discussed 'Blue Smoke' on cold start up in the 12Valve forum. We think it's just partly oxidized hydrocarbons or unburned fuel. Aftermarket injectors will make it more pronounced.

From the Bosch Diesel Fuel Injection Manual:

... . When the engine is cold, the exhaust gas constituents which are immediately noticeable are the non-oxidized or only partly oxidized hydrocarbons which are directly visible in the form of white or blue smoke, and the strongly smelling aldehydes (that rich smell).....

Fireman Dave,
This problem pretty common. The truck does not like the 60+/- degree outside temp range. Not cold enough to activate the intake heaters, yet not warm enough for the engine to start & run smooth & burn clean like in would in 80 degree weather. #ad




[This message has been edited by HEMI®Dart (edited 02-28-2001). ]

 

[Chad Sheets]

Make a long story short, your cylinders are cold. The fuel can not burn in the burn window, or time allowed. The unburned fuel exits into the exhaust as fuel vapors which exit the tail pipe in a bluish/white haze. Nothing to worry about.

Once combustion temps get up there and the pistons and cylinder walls get some heat to them, everything burns real nice... this doesn't take long. Your truck is fine. There are other factors that contribute like fuel properties, air temps, thermostats, altitude etc. , but it all boils down to a cold combustion chamber.

As far as some do it, some dont debate..... well its like this. Every diesel I have ever seen, or heard about does it, even when you dont see it come out the tail pipe, just remove the exhaust pipe from the turbo, and you will see it then. Doesn't matter if its a Dodge Ram, the Yanmar in my John Deere, my neighbors Farmall, my father in-laws CAT 3406, or the Powerstroke in the rollback, or the 6. 5 GM diesel, my friends Kubota... . they all do it. The reason is, as we have all learned, the cylinders are cold and the fuel can not burn in the time allowed. The unburned fuel exits the exhaust as blue/white vapors. Every single one does it for a few seconds, some much longer like 45 seconds.

Now, why do some do some trucks get hotter faster, making the fuel burn completely while others stay cooler longer not allowing that fuel to get hot enough to burn? Lets do a test between two imaginary trucks exactly the same. Atmospheric pressure is one thing, but since our "pretend" experiment has the two trucks at the same elevation, that rules that out. Next would be the fuel. If both trucks had a bone dry fuel system and we filled both up with the exact same fuel then we could rule that out. Now what if the thermostat on one wasn't closing all the way and it just allowed the coolant to sit there and keep cool. When one trucks coolant is 90 deg, the others is at 40 deg. This is just a thought, especially with all the "Bad thermostat" threads we have seen.

Now, not everyone here has the exact same truck, with the same fuel. Not all of us have the AC turned on when we start the truck (puts an extra pull on the engine while the starter is trying to turn the engine over to create heat, which opens another possibility. . are some starters turning faster than others creating more heat faster... hmmmmm, doubt it, but its a thought), nor do all of us park in a garage free of cool night winds. Too many factors that can make one do it more than the other guys.

What causes heat? Compression. Is it possible that one guy has more compression that the other guy? Only if its a ETH vs. ETC engine, correct? What if its two ETH's, or two ETC trucks doing it. Then we have to assume one has lost some compression. How do you do that? Rings not seating against the cylinder wall causing blow by past the rings into the crankcase making that oil puke tube on the front of our engines billow out nasty smelling oil fumes.

How about this one. We know the timing of injection of fuel plays a big part. Inject the fuel too late and it doesn't have as long to burn as the one truck that is injecting the fuel when its supposed to do. We all have read about the different keyways in the injection pumps that Cummins installs out on the assembly line. Maybe the guys who's truck is smoking more than mine has a keyway in it that is injecting his fuel in a little later than mine??

There are just way too many possibilities to guess at. The only way we will ever know is to get two identical trucks that one is smoking for 45 seconds and one is only doing it for 10 seconds. Do a controlled test, drain ALL the fuel and put the exact same fuel in both, put two exact same properly functioning thermostats in, then pull the injection pump and make sure they both have the exact same offset keyway, then hook a manometer (it measures how much gas is coming-out of the blow by tube which is gases blowing past unseated rings during the combustion process) up to the crankcase blow by tube to measure blow by in both trucks, start them up and see what happens. If the manometer reading are the same, then both will smoke the same within a couple seconds of each other.

They all do it, we all pretty much agree on that. Its nothing that will hurt, we all pretty much agree on that, unless as earlier pointed out, its still doing it 10 minutes after you started the truck. If you get in your truck and start it and see white/blue "smoke", dont sweat it. If you look in the mirror and see it a mile after you've went down the road, then we got problems. Otherwise, we'll call it the nature of the beast just like we do when we try to figure out why 16 year olds do everything their parents tell them not to... its the nature of the beast, dont try to figure it out, because you never will.


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Always ready to help!
2000 2500 Red Sport quad cab, 4x4, K&N, DDI's, straight piped, boost, pyro and fuel pressure gages, Hot Power Edge, EZ box, race transmission, Barry Grant fuel system, mean looking set of 33. 5" tires, Snap On diamond tool box, Marine Corps window sticker, Semper Fi!

1972 340 Cuda'. Original tripple Black, 340 car w/air. Good clean car, super stock springs, Weld Prostars, shaker hood, strong 340 with a 727/4000 stahl, 4. 56... . Bombs away!
NRA Life Member
My Diesel Page

 

[Scrmbld4X4]

Sorry guys, I guess I was alittle vague this morning.

13,000 miles, 99 3500, 5spd, QC, 4WD. K&N Cone (RE0880), DynoMax muffler.

It really looks like an old tired gasser with bad valve guides. BLUE smoke and lots of it, until you drive it. Once around the block and it's gone. But it smokes until you drive it. 45 Sec or 10 minutes doesn't matter.

It's been doing it for a while now 2000-3000 miles. I run Rotella 15W-40 oil, just changed it about 500 miles ago.

I also have a Diablo Power Puck, and a PS boost module/elbow installed. But... it smoked BLUE before and really doesn't seem to be any worse or better after the uprate.

Can't believe it's normal especially when you're parked between two other 24V ETC's and they don't smoke or burn your eyes at all. And yes DC is clueless, they told me this afternoon it's winter grade fuel additives.

[This message has been edited by Scrmbld4X4 (edited 02-28-2001). ]

 

[Wheaties]

Chad,

Great info! This newbie thanks you for sharing your knowlege and experience.

I have read on the TDR that an exhaust brake will help your engine to warm up if you turn it on after startup. Would this also reduce the time spent churning out blue smoke?

Matt

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Scmbld4x4, I would definitely make sure the grid heater was working. Watch the voltmeter in the morning and make sure it drags down below 10v or so right after startup. Listen carefully, you should be able to hear it load the engine slightly.

How cold has it been at night lately? If you don't plug in at night, I would think there was something wrong if it didn't smoke #ad


A couple other possibilities:

1) weak lift pump could soften timing and produce more smoke so I'd check your fuel pressure at the outlet port at the top of your filter canister.

2) Fuel additives. . . I believe that good fuel conditioners with cleaners/detergents are important to keep the injectors clean, if they get loaded with carbon, they cannot atomize fuel as well, especially when the fuel is cold and viscous. I was amazed how crudded up my injectors were after only 15K miles ( didn't use additives religiously like I do now). Also the right fuel conditioners will make the fuel burn more readily and help cut smoke.

My ETH has always started up and run clean, considerably more so than the 98. 5 I had for awhile. I did a gasser move once in the morning when I hadn't plugged in (around 30F) and it got a bit smokey then--was late for work that day #ad


Vaughn

 

[JyRO]

Everybody's cranks with cold cylinder temps, at least relative to a fully warmed engine's cylinder temps. Especially us lucky ones living next door to Santa. Because you 2 guys trucks do it, and not so many other people have that problem, I tend to think there is something wrong. I also think its just a small problem. But my opinion is, that it sounds like a problem that should be correctable. Whether its heater grids or whatever, your trucks should, "smoke (or not)," at crank up and idle just like most everybody elses.

Keep digging. Call Cummins. The dealers probably won't know squat about it, they're likely to tell you its time to change spark plugs (I guess that's an indication on how I feel about 5* service). Sorry I can't help you with this problem, and that all I have is opinions, but, opinions are like bu**holes.....

- JyRO

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Y2K 2500 Cummins ETC/DEE, SLT+, 4X4, Quad, LB, Intense Blue Sport, 3. 54 LSD, rear aux. springs (camper special), sliding rear window, all options except cab clearance lights including agate leather, totally stock engine, silencer ring removed, "stealth," mod to run fogs with high beam. Since everybody else listed their toys, I will too.
1995 Kawasaki ZX6-R (For Sale)
1990 Toyota Celica
1983 Mazda RX-7 GSL (For sale)

 

[Mark@TST Products]

I agree it should not continue to smoke, only 3-4 seconds at most on a 0 F start. I'd check the grid heaters first. If they are okay, then I'd suspect an injector.

I've seen one bad injector in a set cause this problem. The pop pressure is about 4400 psi on the 24 valve injectors. They should not dribble or spray fuel until the pressure reaches this pop pressure. There is alway some high pressure fuel left in the high pressure lines on shut down. If one (or more)injector(s) continues to dribble it can make a puddle of fuel in the combustion bowl while setting overnight. When you start up cold the in-cylinder temperature at idle or light load is not high enough to burn this fuel. The raw fuel does get warm enough to turn to a terrible smelling white smoke. When mixed with the exhaust from other cylinders it takes on a blue/white appearance.

Excessively retarded injection timing will cause the white smoke too (common on 12 valvers). I don't know how to check this on a 24 valver, so hope its something else. My 2 cents.

 

[Scrmbld4X4]

Thanks for the help. Yes the grid heaters appear to be working. Voltmeter dips down around 8, then to 14. Back and forth. Lights dim the whole enchilada.

It's been in the high 20s to low 30s most nights lately. Sometimes I plug it in, if I remember before I go in for the night. Doesn't make much of a difference though.

Mark, injectors you say??? hmmmmmm what's your phone number???? or DD's #????

You guys are going to get me in trouble #ad

 

[Grady]

My brother's 98. 5 5-speed did this. It would run on 2 or 3 cylinders while pumping out copious amounts of black smoke until everything was obscured.

He had the NOX program installed at the time. The grid heaters were working. A trip to the dealer yielded the usual "everything is within specifications at this time" answer.

He had the 18-11-99 reflash done, and the problem went away. I seem to remember something from an earlier TDR issue about the 18-11-99 improving cold start characteristics (Timing??) as well as a couple of other things.

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98. 5 4x4, CC, 5 spd.
3. 55 LSD, Jacobs E-Brake

 

[YA_TO_UPA]

Hi all, long time reader here, first time poster. This post brought me out because I too have a blue smoker that really frustrates me. I had my truck warming up here at work last month and a guy came in wondering if it was on fire and he was serious? In addition to the smoking on occasion when slowly accelerating above 2000 rpm I can get the truck to sputter and blue smoke just rolls out the pipe. This sputtering happens when the truck is good and warm??? When the sputtering first occured I did some research and thought maybe it was the winter blend of fuel I was buying, well I've had it sputter for me in the dead of summer too. I've had it into several dealerships and finally got the "there's nothing we can do for you" answer. So I've just been living with it and wondering what to do next. Would a new set of injectors possibly clear up the problems?? If they would I'd have no problem doing that. Now I know I'm not alone...

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99, 4x4, QC, SB, 5 spd. , trailer pkg, camper pkg. Haven't been bitten by the B. O. M. B. ing bug yet!

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

I had a problem like yours YA TO UPA. In my case what was happening was the wiring harness for my powermax that connects between the factory harness and the MAP sensor (right behind the fuel filter on the driver's side of the engine block) had a poor connection. The MAP sensor was basically getting disconnected and confusing the computer as to how much boost it was making - it sputtered BAD and belched blue smoke out. In my case with the ignition on and the engine not running if I moved that harness around I could hear a clicking in my fuel pump - once I fixed the connection the problem was solved. It's possible that you have a bad connection there or maybe even a bad MAP sensor - I believe there is a code that get's set in the ECM if that's the problem.

-Steve