2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Brake Bleeding - Combination and RWAL Valves

[Hollywud]

I finally got the opportunity to perform my EGR rear disc brake conversion this past weekend. Still tweaking the parking brake cables... ... stay tuned for a future "all encompassing" post on the conversion.



For now, I was wondering if someone could answer a simple (hopefully ) question. After doing my brake work (complete front rebuild included), I wanted to bleed the entire brake system to ensure all air was out of the system. Bench bleed the master cylinder, bleed the combination valve... bleed the RWAL (rear abs) valve... . followed by each caliper.



I have the factory manual and it states to bleed in the following order:



1. Master Cylinder

2. Combination Valve

3. RWAL (i. e. rear ABS) valve

4. Left Rear Caliper

5. Right Rear Caliper

6. Right Front Caliper

7. Left Front Caliper



Here's the questions:



- What is the proper method for bleeding the Combination Valve? What I did was crack all the brake lines leaving the valve until only fluid and no air was present... ... is this correct? I couldn't find a bleeder screw (other than the huge one on the top of the valve but I was afraid to crack it).



- What is the proper method for bleeding the RWAL (rear ABS) Valve? What I did was crack all the brake lines leaving the valve until only fluid and no air was present... ... is this correct? I couldn't find a bleeder screw (other than the huge one on the side of the valve but I was afraid to crack it).



- Why does D. C. specify to bleed the left rear before the right rear?... . this is contrary to the standard practice of starting bleeding on the furthest bleeder from the m. c.



Hopefully someone can shed some light..... thanks in advance,



jon

 

[John]

Here's a tip Hollywud...



Scrap the OE driver side parking brake cable... the rear most one that actually connects to the brake backing plate. Order the corresponding brake cable for a 4x2 Ram and it will be just about perfect! Why? I ordered one... just to see, and it worked! Although the distance from the end of the cable casing to the end of the cable "bullet" is still too long, the newer EGR parking brake installation kits have quite a bit of adjustment options. As I have the older, 2 tubes arrangement (that I customized ), my adjustment options were nil after I shortened the tubes and had them welded to the caliper parking brake cable mount.



Either that or you can use your OE parking brake cable and put a loop (360 degrees) in it to take up all the extra length. Not a good way to go in my opinion.

 

[John]

Brake Bleeding

~ I have a '98. 5 QC 2500 4x4 with the 4-wheel antilock brake option ~



I purchased and utilized the EGR Pressure Bleeder system in my brake bleeding process. That is by far the slickest brake bleeder I've seen and used! Well worth the money (IMO).



I completely bled my brake system starting with the passenger side rear, the driver side rear, the passenger side front, and finishing with the driver side front. BTW, I also changed out all of my OE brake hoses, installing the optional EGR Teflon/Kevlar/braided stainless steel counterparts during my brake upgrade project (as well as the two like s/s extension hoses with the rear disc conversion kit). I just followed the directions that came with the EGR Pressure Bleeder kit and I didn't have any problems.

 

[y-knot]

You are very right, the EGR pressurized bleeder is awsome, well worth the 90 so bucks. As for how to properly bleed the combo valve and the RWAL valve, it's like you said, only I suppose you had someone depressing the brake pedal??? If not thats how you do it , have them press on the pedal and you open each line one at a time, till all clear. If you would have used the EGR pressurizer, you could illiminate the need for the extra person. Only commint on the pressurizer is, make sure you have a good seal BEFORE you add the fluid to the tank. I would have to say EGR is a very good company, all there products worked and fit right, and the were very prompt in shipping. Also they still have time durring there bussy day, for all your questions.

 

[y-knot]

One last thing, in my book it states to bleedin this order



master cylinder

combo valve

RWAL valve

RIGHT (passenger) rear wheel

LEFT (driver) left rear wheel



the right should be bleed first it is the furtherist from the master cylinder/

 

[Hollywud]

Thanks for the tips!!!



I was really curious to see if I was using the correct bleed technique on the comb. /rwal valves. I've done my method before on other vehicle systems but wasn't sure what the large bleeder looking fittings were for... ... anyone know? For reference, the fitting in the combination valve also has a metering valve.



I too purchased the Motiv pressure bleeder but, manually bleed first because I wasn't sure if I would be able to force all trapped air out of the combination/rwal valves. The pressure bleeder set-up was definitely worth the money! I did have the following problem:



- I couldn't seem to get all the air out of the right rear caliper while pressure bleeding... ... the bubbles never stopped. All other corners bleed a continuous stream of fluid... no bubbles. No fluid leaks noted so I ruled out pulling air thru a leaky line. When I bleed the line manually, no air seemed to be present. Not sure what was causing the air bubbles but figured I would test the brakes and subsequently bleed (haven't had time to test... work called ;-(.



Regarding the driver's side parking brake cable, I called Glenn @ EGR to see if he had a better routing description than those in the instructions. I explained that I couldn't find a routing scheme that allowed an equal pull on both rear calipers... . cable bend definitely the culprit. Glenn now has a "correct length" replacement driver's side cable in stock... . I ordered one @ $50 and am awaiting it's arrival. This will definitely cure the unequal applied brake pressure. I too modified the original "L" bracket and tube design..... welded the tube to the bracket... . enlarged the hole on the "L" bracket to 5/8... . installed a flanged bushing as a cable guide. I will post all the details/pictures sometime next week, when I get some time off.



... . fyi... . I installed all the EGR goodies... F. blue printed calipers, F. carbon/kevlar pads, F. slotted rotors, R. drum-2-disc conversion, S. S. /kevlar lines, Motul 600c fluid, etc.

 

[Hollywud]

One More Pressure Bleeder Question

When you were bleeding, did you use EGR's method of pressing the brake pedal down 1/2"-3/4" or the factory manual's technique of pressing or lifting on the metering valve? If the latter, where can I get a clip to hold open the metering valve?... NAPA?



Thanks!



jon

 

[John]

Hollywud, the aforementioned brake cable I detailed in my first post was only $26. and change from Dodge... and that was at retail.



As for the trapped air in the rear caliper(s), I had many air bubbles, in fact, it was a seemingly never ending stream for awhile! However, perserverence prevailed.



As per y-not's warning, make absolutely sure you have a good seal on the master cylinder reservoir before you add brake fluid! The first time I bled the system (after I replaced the front brake system and front hoses... including the left to right hard line) everything went like clockwork. ( ) However, the second time (after completing the entire project) it went a little South. Here's why; although I did pressurize the EGR Pressure Bleeding system before adding the Motul brake fluid (and waited ten minutes or so just to be sure), I somehow felt something wasn't quite right. Ok, fast forward to after initiating the brake bleeding operation. I went back to my engine compartment to see if I had enough fluid in the Pressure Bleeder as well as double checking the pressurization number on the container. Well, I noticed a very small leak stemming from the seal of the master cylinder reservoir and the Pressure Bleeder adapter. So, I couldn't leave well enough alone! ( ) I "adjusted" the cap and went back to bleeding the system. Hmmm. After a few minutes I discovered that things were going rather slow (as in, reduced pressure). Hmmm. I went back to the engine compartment to discover my very small leak had grown due to my intervention. ( ) Then, I looked down beneath my Ram to discover I had what looked like Lake Erie below my master cylinder. ( ) Then, I discovered my mistake, I had hooked the retention chain of the sealing cap below the plastic reservoir instead of below the cast aluminum master cylinder as was the case the first time I bled my brake system (allows for a more stable platform in which to properly anchor the retention device). After the cleanup process and getting even more mad at myself for wasting at least one $15. bottle of Motul RBF 600, I went back to bleeding the system without incident.



Lesson learned.

 

[Hollywud]

John,



Thanks for the tips!!!



The OEM cable seems like the better alternative, considering cost. When I receive the EGR solution (manufactured by Control Cables, Inc), I'll post on fit, form, and function, relative to cost.



I too had an issue with my pressure bleeder springing a leak however, it wasn't at the m/c adapter..... it was at the brass fitting (where you connect the m/c adapter to the bleeder). I don't know why it loosed because I definitely tightened it adequately. After re-tightening, I was back in business. Once I get the opportunity to take my truck for a test drive/break-in the pads, I'll bleed the system again. I will try the pressure bleeder first and if I see bubbles from the right rear caliper, I'll let it bleed for awhile and see if all the air will escape. If that doesn't work, I'll revert to manual bleeding. I still wonder why when I manually bleed the brakes, I saw no bubbles but, when I used the pressure bleeder, I did.



What method did you use to hold the metering valve in the proper bleeding position? EGR's brake pedal depress or DC's push/pull technique on the valve pop-it?



jon

 

[y-knot]

I used both methods, I held the pedal down for awhile. And I also had speed bleeders, so i depressed the pedal slowly a few times on eack corner. Helped speed-up the air removeal, and all worked out real well. A little tip for useing the power flusher, ON the tank, attach a fe-male air line quick connect, and on the cap side a male end. Makes attaching and re-attaching easy, lets you get the tank out of the way quickly. Oh, I had almost the same problem with the leaking cap.

 

[Hollywud]

I was thinking the same thing ynot. When I initially hooked up the pressure bleeder, I connected the adapter to the m/c before screwing the lines together. Then I realized that both male & female ends were rigid... i. e. female didn't have a swivel fitting. I had to undo the adapter installation at the m/c to screw the lines together. No biggie but, I hate having to go back-wards. I'm definitely going set-up the lines with a quick disconnect.

 

[Hollywud]

I Knew I Wasn't Crazy

Y-Not...



When you posted the correct sequence for bleeding and reference the factory manual, I pulled mine out and checked. Sure as #$%@, you were right ... it called for the sequence that made sense and not the one I originally posted. Man, I thought I let myself down and was possibly going crazy because I was positive that's what it said in my manual.



Eureka! :-laf



In Group 5 (i. e. Brakes) of the manual, go to the section for Rear Wheel Antilock Brakes (pg. 48 in my manual). This is where I saw the odd sequence printed... . which stands as follows:



1. Master Cylinder

2. Combination Valve

3. Rear Antilock Valve

4. Left Rear Wheel

5. Right Rear Wheel

6. Right Front Wheel

7. Left Front Wheel



Is this just a mis-print? If not, could someone explain the theory behind this sequence?



jon

 

[IWeiny]

Coment on the one caliper with bubles.

When I did mine I had to go and get more of the Motul fluid from a local racing shop and the guy there, also a Ram owner but not TDR member, mentioned what they do on race cars. He said with a new caliper there can be very small (He was talking microscopic) rough surfaces inside the piston/cylendar which will tend to hold the air. What they do is use a rubber mallet to tap on the caliper to help dislodge these bubbles and let them float to the top for bleeding. I bled mine 3 times over the course of a week, and now feel they are ok. Used a lot of very expensive fluid but you are filling a rather large empty caliper.



Just a thought.



PS, How do you like the rear disks thus far? I have thought about it but am afraid of the install after doing the fronts...

 

[Hollywud]

IWeiny,



That's a good idea... didn't think of that but, it makes sense.



I plan on posting a specific topic when I get a few minutes but, here's my initial impression:



EGR Drum-2-Disc Conversion



- Caliper brackets and caliper mount very easily... there were minor clearance issues on certain bolts, making proper torquing difficult (but do-able).



- S. S. /Kevlar lines (caliper to oem steel line) mounting tolerance between the line's block and caliper radius cut-out are tight... . I didn't need to but, you may need to notch the caliper or round the line's block slightly.



- Mounting the rotor to oem hub is very straight forward... a shop press makes installing the studs very easy but, they can be pounded in with drift and some sweat.



- Wheel shims are provided, spacing wheels to their oem position (very close) since drums are now missing... I had to chamfer the inside diameter edge that contacts the hub. The stock drum has this chamfer which appears to be a relief since the stock hub has a fillet or radius in the mating corner. Without doing this the spacers would not sit flush with the hub.



- Parking Brake - still working on this one... currently not assembled. The passenger cable routing is good but the driver's cable is way too long, since the cable entered the drum from the rear. I tried looping it per the EGR instructions but couldn't get an even pull between the R & L calipers. I called EGR and they now have a "correct length" cable for sale... . mine's on order and I'm awaiting delivery ($50). Also, TDR user name "John" found that an oem cable from the 2wd truck will work too ($25). What the aftermarket cable does is allow for a straight shot from the oem parking brake cable bracket to the EGR parking brake bracket. I also modified the EGR bracket slightly to better align the cable. Once I have the new cable installed, I'll post an opinion on clamping adequacy.



- Definite Overall Negatives = instructions need some help and it would have been cool if the kit included new pre-bent (to the correct length) hard steel lines that route along the axle (bending the oem lines doesn't look pretty and I'm always fearful of work hardening issues).



- Definite Overall Positives = Glenn @ EGR... I called him numerous times to ask for clarifications and/or dumb questions... . his customer service is top notch! Since I would say that his kit is still in it's infancy stages, I don't think it went too bad and future kits will probably get better as he receives feedback.



- Driving Performance = Too early to tell. For one, I definitely still have air in my system since the pedal doesn't quite feel hard... . maybe as break-in procedes this will go away too (from what I've read on other posts). At any rate, it's raining today and I would rather bleed in dry weather (why add undue moisture to the system, if I can wait). I did break-in the pads this morning after slow testing for a mile or two. Bring some coffee or a TDR magazine along... after braking hard from 50 mph to 15 mph twice you are supposed to stop and let the brakes cool till you can touch 'em. This took 20 - 30 minutes in my case. Also, upon pulling to the side of the road (used a very untraveled road), the front brakes were steaming... alarming at first. I now have 20 miles on the system and it stops good..... I haven't hit the brakes hard since initial break-in though and I still need to bleed more air out of the system, so hopefully it'll be GREAT soon.



More info and photos to come... . stay tuned.



jon

 

[jcbrown]

ABS Bleeding...

No comment's on how to bleed the ABS brake circuit's?



I just activate ABS brake circuits driving/stopping on grass and rebleeding.

 

[Hollywud]

jcbrown... . nope, you are the first... . other than agreeing that it's o. k. to bleed like I mentioned earlier in the post.



All...



If this link works, here are a few photo's I've put in my gallery: https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/displayalbum.php?&userid=15037&albumid=1241



More to come later... . stay tuned! > gotta get back to wrenching and stop playing on the TDR

 

[John]

Hollywud, I prepared a post addressing evey aspect and more pertaining to things about the EGR rear disc brake conversion the other day but...



it was lost as I posted it (even though I used my time honored trick to overcome that!) Needless to say, as I'm a hunt-and-peck typist and had to research some of my notes to accurately post... well, I was livid about my post disappearing! BTW TDR, that "fix" you have for being "dropped" off the BB does not work! [for me anyway] Also, this is THE ONLY BB that I frequent that continually has this problem!



_________________________________________________



Anyway, I will state that I was one of the very first to receive the 5/16" thick aluminum spacers (the last box of my EGR shipment was held up pending the arrival of the spacers to EGR). The spacers were directional. By that I mean, they only had one side with the I. D. chamfer machined on it. As you know, that side faces in upon installation. Also, before installing my spacers I sprayed a light cost of anti-seize on the inner facing side, wiping away any residual from the bolt holes.



I'll post other information when time allows.

 

[Hollywud]

John,



So your spacers came with the chamfer machined from EGR???



Mine didn't have a chamfer on either side (i. e. 90 degree edges), so I made the clearance myself... . I called Glenn at EGR and it sounded like none of the spacers had a chamfer on them. Maybe I just misunderstood him?



jon

 

[Hollywud]

By the way, I've been there too!!!!



I now type my posts in Word first... then cut and paste so I still got it if the post bombs.

 

[John]

Yes Hollywud, my EGR spacers (5/16" thick plate aluminum, fully machined on a lathe... by a rookie machinist I might add... :-laf ) did have a considerable chamfer machined on one side of each spacer.



[by rookie machinist I mean... someone who was either in too much of a hurry or didn't know what he/she was doing judging by the chatter marks]



... nothing I couldn't take care of though! ( )



BTW, you have the new parking brake hardware (the universal piece with all the holes in it). The older style (supplied) arrangement was rather crude, very poorly detailed, and required a welder for a quality installation (IMO). Although my parking brake installation turned out very well, it was not without considerable intervention (i. e. , rework) on my part to make it happen.