Brake Controllers

[HBarlow]

Jack,

Good. You'll love it. I didn't know who Plug It Right was but remember now that a woman TDR member had posted about the MB in the past.

 

[JMetzger]

Yes, She & her husband are in AZ instead of TX as I think he had some kind of surgery that he needed the warmer weather. Seem like nice people.

 

[GCroyle]

So it just sounds like SWW is no longer distributing, but the MaxBrake is still available, thats good.

 

[richardcoxid]

HBarlow



I have always thought that the pressure operated variable resister pad that clipped to the brake peddle back in the late 50s and early 60s was a K-H, maybe it wasn’t, you know the memory isn’t that fails as you age.



The other thing that came to my mind is that there was a controller box similar to todays controllers that you mounted under the dash, it had a rubber tipped rod that extended up in front of the dash that you moved to take manual control.

 

[HBarlow]

Richard,

I have a vague memory of a brake controller device that strapped onto a brake pedal also but don't know if it was another K-H product, some sort of accessory device that could attach to a K-H, or an entirely different product. It was a long time ago!

The only one I owned back in the '70s and again in the '90s was the hydraulic-electric device that was actuated by brake line pressure or by moving the lever that extended from the front of the controller housing under the dash.

They were outstanding products.

 

[JMetzger]

Harvey, I remember he controller Richard is referring to. It strapped on the brake pedal & it was a rheostat & you kind of rocked your foot on it. The more you tipped it forward the more it applied the brakes. They were not around very long as the Kelsy-Hates was far superior to it. Had a friend who had one. It was a poor mans controller about half the price of the K-H & didn't have to tie into the hydraulics. . See Harvey that is what is nice about being older than dirt.

 

[richardcoxid]

JMetzger



To eleminate the 8” steel tube that connects to the adapter I had a local hydraulic brake hose shop make up a short (20” ?) piece of brake hose with the proper ends, the transducer end I attached to the fire wall pinch weld.



I also have been told that if you can get the proper adapter the transducer can be screwed directly into the adapter tee.

 

[HBarlow]

Jack,

Thanks for answering that question.

It IS good to be older than dirt sometimes but the problem is I can't remember many of the things that I once knew very well.

 

[JMetzger]

Thanks Richard, I might look into that idea. Harvey that is known as CRS.

 

[richardcoxid]

Harvy et All



A short history on brake controllers- (as I remember it)



My parents had a small single axle pull trailer back in the mid 50’s. The brake controller was a pressure operated variable 6V resister pad about brake pedal size and 1/2in thick. It was clipped to the brake pedal. This was truly a PROPROTIONAL controller i. e. Pressing the brake pedal compressed the resister and the voltage to the Rv brakes would increase. No computer or anything, just a pressure operated high amperage variable resister.



The next generation of brake controllers tapped a small hydraulic line into a brake line at the master cylinder and was snaked into the cab and connected to a small slave cylinder in the brake controller body. This slave cylinder was connected to a variable 12V resister. There again a truly proportional system. This was the system of choice for 20-25 years until Anti-Lock brakes were introduced, the vehicle manufactures wouldn’t allow you to tap into the brake hydraulic systems.



The controller manufactures came up with the problematic pendulum (inertia) type and time constant controllers. I also had one of these time constant death traps! When you applied the TV brakes the controller slowly ramped up to max in applying the RV brakes. This means that when you were gradually slowing down the longer you had the TV brakes applied the harder the RV brakes were applied, then release the brakes and apply them again. Conversely under a panic stop the TV brakes were doing all the stopping while the RV brakes were gradually increasing.



Also about this time there was a Jordan Ultma 2020. This was operated by a small diameter cable that one end was connected to the brake pedal arm and the other end connected to the controller body that moved a variable resistor to vary the voltage to the brakes. This was again a truly PROPROTIONAL brake controller, i. e. apply the brakes when going forward, reverse or even stopped and voltage was applied to the RV brakes. I understand that the Jordan was sold and the new owners stopped producing them.



The MaxBrake has a pressure transducer connected into a Hyd. Brake line. This is again a truly proportional brake controller! Press the brake pedal and the voltage to the brakes increases even when you are stopped or are backing. The small volume of brake fluid displaced by the transducer is approved for use with TV Anti-lock brakes. The Max Brake controller is available mail order only, I am not aware of any RV dealer that stocks them.



I did make a change to the instructions- Max Brake supplied a steel brake line that went between the adapter “T” and the Transducer. To me that presented two potential problems, 1- bending the steel line without kinking it, 2- vibration of the relative heavy transducer could cause the 8 inch long steel line to work harden with the potential of a resulting fracture. I had a local hydraulic hose company fabricate a length of hydraulic brake hose with the proper crimped on end fittings. I then attached a small piece of 1/8”aluminum to the firewall pinch weld and used a small “U” bolt to attach the transducer to the bracket. On my truck there are two power brake lines alongside the Master Cylinder that the transducer could also be attached to using cable ties.



BTW- I am under the impression that the Brake Smart (very similar in operation to the MaxBrake) is either no longer business or are almost out of business!



Max Brake is available only by mail order. Plug It Right and MaxBrake™ - Hydraulic over Electric Variable Brake Controller



There may be other suppliers also.



Disclaimer- I have NO financial or other interest in “Plug-it-right” or “Max Brake”.



Like I said this is as I remember it, but Ihope that is is more or less correct.

 

[HBarlow]

Richard,

Generally correct but I will differ with you on the manufacturers prohibiting tapping into a brake line. As late as about 2006, 2007, or 2008 and perhaps even to this day, the GM light truck brochures contain a fine print line that stated (states?) that a hydraulic over electric brake controller that taps into the truck braking system IS acceptable as long as the controller does NOT displace more than . 02 cubic inches of brake fluid. I have not looked at a GM light truck brochure in two or three years but not long ago the statement above was still printed in their brochures. Dodge has been silent on the subject and I would not drive a free Furd light truck so have never bothered to look at their brochures to see if they expressed a position.

In the late '90s when I was thoroughly disgusted with trying to tow a triple axle Airstream with a sorry pos Tekonsha Voyager I contacted Hayes or Hayes Lemmerz, a descendent company of the old Kelsey-Hayes that manufactured the controller we have been discussing. A helpful engineer took my call and advised that the old K-H controller could still be found and it was acceptable on all late model light trucks although the manufacturers were silent on the issue for fear of ambulance chasers going after them. Their system displaced only a tiny amount of brake fluid. I found a new one in an unopened box at an old RV dealer and bought it. I installed it on my Furd F250 and it worked great.

Ignorant or biased RV dealers probably started the old false statement that a K-H controller could not be used because either their techs didn't know how to install a K-H, the owner didn't trust them to, or because they preferred to sell useless inertia-activated controllers.

You stated that the brake pedal pad brake controllers were proportional. That's true I suppose but the system involved delays due to space between driver's foot on the device, a resistor, and the brake pedal, and more. They may have acted somewhat proportional but were not efficient or they would still be in production and for sale. They and the Jordan Ultima have faded away.

The only brake controllers that precisely measured driver input, precisely modulated trailer braking, and provided precisely proportional trailer braking to match truck braking were the original K-H, the BrakeSmart, and now the MaxBrake.

 

[garford12]

Does anyone know how many axle's the Max Smart supports. My 5th wheel has two axle's and I occasionally add a flatbed with 2 axle's. Thanks, Bob Smits

 

[JMetzger]

There add says up to 4 axles. maxbrake.com

 

[RonD]

Richard,



Generally correct but I will differ with you on the manufacturers prohibiting tapping into a brake line. As late as about 2006, 2007, or 2008 and perhaps even to this day, the GM light truck brochures contain a fine print line that stated (states?) that a hydraulic over electric brake controller that taps into the truck braking system IS acceptable as long as the controller does NOT displace more than . 02 cubic inches of brake fluid. I have not looked at a GM light truck brochure in two or three years but not long ago the statement above was still printed in their brochures. Dodge has been silent on the subject and I would not drive a free Furd light truck so have never bothered to look at their brochures to see if they expressed a position.



In the late '90s when I was thoroughly disgusted with trying to tow a triple axle Airstream with a sorry pos Tekonsha Voyager I contacted Hayes or Hayes Lemmerz, a descendent company of the old Kelsey-Hayes that manufactured the controller we have been discussing. A helpful engineer took my call and advised that the old K-H controller could still be found and it was acceptable on all late model light trucks although the manufacturers were silent on the issue for fear of ambulance chasers going after them. Their system displaced only a tiny amount of brake fluid. I found a new one in an unopened box at an old RV dealer and bought it. I installed it on my Furd F250 and it worked great.



Ignorant or biased RV dealers probably started the old false statement that a K-H controller could not be used because either their techs didn't know how to install a K-H, the owner didn't trust them to, or because they preferred to sell useless inertia-activated controllers.



You stated that the brake pedal pad brake controllers were proportional. That's true I suppose but the system involved delays due to space between driver's foot on the device, a resistor, and the brake pedal, and more. They may have acted somewhat proportional but were not efficient or they would still be in production and for sale. They and the Jordan Ultima have faded away.



The only brake controllers that precisely measured driver input, precisely modulated trailer braking, and provided precisely proportional trailer braking to match truck braking were the original K-H, the BrakeSmart, and now the MaxBrake.

Harvey, Ford has had a direct hydraulic line off the master cylinder for the Ford Tow Command for about 10 years now, it works just like Max-Brake does, I know this because I replaced a Master cylinder on my Sons truck 5 years ago, Max-Brake is great, just not the only player in town. There isn't much Ford offers I care for, but the brake controller is a first class act, I wish the Ram trucks had the same design.

 

[garford12]

Thanks Jack, I couldn't find it on their web site. Bob Smits

 

[HBarlow]

Does anyone know how many axle's the Max Smart supports. My 5th wheel has two axle's and I occasionally add a flatbed with 2 axle's. Thanks, Bob Smits

Yes. It will work perfectly when pulling trailers with one, two, or three axles. I've not towed a trailer with four axles but it may adapt to that also.

Oops. I wrote this very early this am with my first untouched cup of coffee in hand. I misread this because you wrote "Max Smart" and thought you were inquiring about BrakeSmart. The BrakeSmart which is the predecessor or the MaxBrake and the company that developed the technology operates three axles just as well as two. I haven't owned or used a MaxBrake and haven't read their product installation sheets so may be wrong about MaxBrake.

If I were going to tow a heavy flatbed trailer behind a large and heavy fifthwheel I would consider something more creative for safety.

If a MaxBrake is capable of providing braking for four axles I would run heavy gauge wire to all four axles.

If a MaxBrake is only capable of providing braking for two axles I would mount two MaxBrake controllers, one for each trailer, and run heavy gauge wire separately to each trailer. I would adjust the gain of the second MaxBrake for the second trailer higher than the controller for the front trailer so that the rear brakes would lead the forward trailer.

Towing two heavy trailers with one dually pickup with mediocre braking (front disc/rear drums) and apparently no exhaust brake is a serious endeavor that requires serious measures to provide adequate and safe braking.

Frankly I have towed trailers weighing around 20k pounds and I would not tow two heavy trailers in tandem with a dually pickup. That rig you're describing could kill people and cause hundreds of thousands of dollars in property damage.

 

[HBarlow]

Harvey, Ford has had a direct hydraulic line off the master cylinder for the Ford Tow Command for about 10 years now, it works just like Max-Brake does, I know this because I replaced a Master cylinder on my Sons truck 5 years ago, Max-Brake is great, just not the only player in town. There isn't much Ford offers I care for, but the brake controller is a first class act, I wish the Ram trucks had the same design.

That's good if accurate. I've seen lots of wild claims about Furds on other websites but never by anyone who had actual knowledge of their brake systems.

It's too bad Dodge engineers didn't have enough sense to do the same.

 

[garford12]

My current wiring for the second trailer is pig tailed into the wiring on the 5th wheel. Should I run a second brake wire from the truck to the adapter on the back of the 5th wheel? If so what gage? Thanks, bob

 

[RonD]

That's good if accurate. I've seen lots of wild claims about Furds on other websites but never by anyone who had actual knowledge of their brake systems.



It's too bad Dodge engineers didn't have enough sense to do the same.

Harvey, Ford trucks that have Tow Command have a different Master Cylinder than ones without it, Ford I suspect doesn't build it, just has a Sub Contractor, supplier provide it, like Dodge does with Continental, as much as I really like my new Ram, there is a reason they are the least money over the others, I would gladly have paid the extra ten bucks it would have cost to have a better designed controller, Ron

 

[RonD]

That's good if accurate. I've seen lots of wild claims about Furds on other websites but never by anyone who had actual knowledge of their brake systems.



It's too bad Dodge engineers didn't have enough sense to do the same.

I don't think it is the Engineer's, but the Accounting Bean Counting Department