I am having issues with both front and rear breaks. This has been an on going issue for a while. I just made the 250k milestone and truck continues to run great. As far as brakes, my initial issue seemed to be brake hop (which is new to me). The rear shoe linings on both sides were cracked in the center. I replaced the shoes and had the same thing happen within about three months. I replaced rear shoes (raybestos) drums (autozone) and GM 3500 wheel cylinders (autozone). Still seemed to have brake hop. I have recently rebuilt front end with ball joints (moog), tie rod ends (moog), and pitman arm to clear up wear related slop. The control arm bushings felt tight (did not remove arms) and idler arm felt tight and was replaced by previous owner. I then replaced front rotors/hubs (autozone), bearings (timken), calipers (autozone), front brake hoses (autozone) and premium pads (autozone). I bought a replacement hose for rear brakes but have not yet installed. I had the left front caliper drag quite a bit. In three months it went through about 2/3 of the pad and wore into rotor. I replaced rotor, caliper and pads. This seems to be happening again on left front brake. The pins are well lubed and appear straight. I have cracked the brake bleeder to check for pressure build-up but did not notice any issues and brake continued to drag. (Front left tire elevated would only spin approx ½ to ¾ rev. before stopping). I flushed the left front caliper with about ¾ a quart of fluid which was needed. I still have brake hop/grab which I believe is rear brakes. Light pedal pressure produces smooth stops although it does feel like slightly warped drums. A dial indicator on front shows . 004 which is still acceptable. For rears, I could only run indicator on outside of drum and had . 005 inch which is out of spec. but I did not check for round when new and outside is not a machined surface. Still it is a better indicator than nothing. Earlier this week, I checked fit of left rear shoes to drum and fit was good, no gapping at ends or center (ran out of time and did not get to the right side). I have not been hauling any significant loads, just hauling stuff for home projects. I have been working on my cars for 35 years and never had these issues. I was out of work eight months last year so scrimped putting in the cheap autozone brakes. I am getting extremely frustrated at this point with the rear hop and front left drag! Any suggestions are welcomed at this point. The brake hop is worse when on slight downhill grade below 40 mph.
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2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Brake Issues
- Thread starter DDawkins
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Fit the shoes to the drums.
I feel your pain man! I "had" the same issue on my 99 - you hit the nail on the head, it is the rear brakes.
I went as far as new drums, then had them trued = no change. Then, via a TDR member Sam (it has been a while so I think his last name is Peterson, or Peterston? He "is" the brake Guru! Sorry if I totally screwed it up Sam), I learned the rear drum brake hop issue could be addressed by "fitting" the shoes to the drums. Sam said many truck repair shops can do this. Being the "frugal Yankee" I consider myself to be, I set out on a mission to do this myself and actually figured a "shade-tree" way to accomplish "fitting".
A bit involved but, here goes:
Remove both rear drums lay on the ground as they come off the truck and leave. Remove shoes and place them inside the drums, just as if they were still installed on the truck. Now the fun begins, take drum to a work bench and follow along.
The shoes, when pressed by hand against the drum mating surface, should be flat with only about 0. 020" - 0. 010" clearance at each end of the shoe and be equal at the top and bottom edge as you look down at the edge of the shoe to drum surface. If there is any more clearance the shoes will "toe - heel" and cause the dreaded "hop/bounce" you are feeling when applied, which usually is noticed between 45 and 30 mph.
Also, if there is a gap at the center of the shoe to drum surface, and both ends of the shoe are touching, this will reduce life and cause problems as well.
So, how to "fit" the shoes. What I did is as follows:
If the shoes are bent = one end is flat and the other end is crooked. Place the shoes in a vise, metal at edge of shoe in the jaws, and tweak with a big adjustable wrench, frequently checking in drum so as not to over-tweak shoes. Once this is accomplished you can proceed to the "fit" part. Ain't this fun ? ? ?
Place the shoe in the drum and check for heel - toe. If there is too much gap, place a piece of round stock (or a small #1 Phillips screw driver) vertically between the center of the shoe and drum surface, get two C-clamps and clamp one snugly at one end of the shoe maintaining the round stock in the center of the shoe/drum, centered on the metal of the shoe's inner mount to the outside of the drum. Then take the other clamp and tweak down on the other end of the shoe, watching as you tighten the space getting smaller. Now, remove the clamps and the round stock, and check your clearance - remember 0. 020" - 0. 010" is the goal. Continue to perform the procedure until proper clearance is obtained. If you go too far, or if the clearance is in the center of the shoe, place two pieces of round stock and clamp from the center of the shoe to regain space at the end of the shoes.
Once you have achieved proper clearance make sure to check that the shoe hasn't been bent/twisted in the mating surface. Checking frequently as you go is the key to this procedure and is the PIA of the job. Oh, repeat 3 more times with the remaining shoes.
Now here's the last tidbit that I learned when working in my Uncle's Big Rig shop. About 1/4 - 3/8" along the top and bottom edge of each shoe, straight across the surface of the material, remove some of the shoe material in a slightly tapered fashion towards the metal shoe material - making a bit of a wedge shape - this is very slight and allows the shoe a bit of help "wearing-into" the drum surface. This task can be accomplished with a fine flat file or sandpaper in a flat block, or if you are adventurous and proficient enough a flat grinder, or bench grind can be used as well
Just remember it's easy to remove material quickly, but if too much is gone then you have to buy new shoes and . . . start all over - again, fitting them. Use a file 
Lastly, if the drum is scored, etc. Have them "trued" (removed a very small amount of material just to give a "fresh" surface) at a reliable shop with newer equipment and an older operator. No offense to those youngsters out there in the field, but most young "mechanic/technicians" don't merit caps at the head of their "titles" let alone the "privilege" to work on a part from my truck - sorry. Also, be certain to remove any rust on the axle flange and axle to drum / drum to wheel / wheel to drum surfaces and evenly tighten/torque the lug nuts so there is no doubt the assembly is "true" when finished.
Make sure you take your time and check surfaces frequently throughout the process.
Have fun:-laf
I feel your pain man! I "had" the same issue on my 99 - you hit the nail on the head, it is the rear brakes.
I went as far as new drums, then had them trued = no change. Then, via a TDR member Sam (it has been a while so I think his last name is Peterson, or Peterston? He "is" the brake Guru! Sorry if I totally screwed it up Sam), I learned the rear drum brake hop issue could be addressed by "fitting" the shoes to the drums. Sam said many truck repair shops can do this. Being the "frugal Yankee" I consider myself to be, I set out on a mission to do this myself and actually figured a "shade-tree" way to accomplish "fitting".
A bit involved but, here goes:
Remove both rear drums lay on the ground as they come off the truck and leave. Remove shoes and place them inside the drums, just as if they were still installed on the truck. Now the fun begins, take drum to a work bench and follow along.
The shoes, when pressed by hand against the drum mating surface, should be flat with only about 0. 020" - 0. 010" clearance at each end of the shoe and be equal at the top and bottom edge as you look down at the edge of the shoe to drum surface. If there is any more clearance the shoes will "toe - heel" and cause the dreaded "hop/bounce" you are feeling when applied, which usually is noticed between 45 and 30 mph.
Also, if there is a gap at the center of the shoe to drum surface, and both ends of the shoe are touching, this will reduce life and cause problems as well.
So, how to "fit" the shoes. What I did is as follows:
If the shoes are bent = one end is flat and the other end is crooked. Place the shoes in a vise, metal at edge of shoe in the jaws, and tweak with a big adjustable wrench, frequently checking in drum so as not to over-tweak shoes. Once this is accomplished you can proceed to the "fit" part. Ain't this fun ? ? ?
Place the shoe in the drum and check for heel - toe. If there is too much gap, place a piece of round stock (or a small #1 Phillips screw driver) vertically between the center of the shoe and drum surface, get two C-clamps and clamp one snugly at one end of the shoe maintaining the round stock in the center of the shoe/drum, centered on the metal of the shoe's inner mount to the outside of the drum. Then take the other clamp and tweak down on the other end of the shoe, watching as you tighten the space getting smaller. Now, remove the clamps and the round stock, and check your clearance - remember 0. 020" - 0. 010" is the goal. Continue to perform the procedure until proper clearance is obtained. If you go too far, or if the clearance is in the center of the shoe, place two pieces of round stock and clamp from the center of the shoe to regain space at the end of the shoes.
Once you have achieved proper clearance make sure to check that the shoe hasn't been bent/twisted in the mating surface. Checking frequently as you go is the key to this procedure and is the PIA of the job. Oh, repeat 3 more times with the remaining shoes.
Now here's the last tidbit that I learned when working in my Uncle's Big Rig shop. About 1/4 - 3/8" along the top and bottom edge of each shoe, straight across the surface of the material, remove some of the shoe material in a slightly tapered fashion towards the metal shoe material - making a bit of a wedge shape - this is very slight and allows the shoe a bit of help "wearing-into" the drum surface. This task can be accomplished with a fine flat file or sandpaper in a flat block, or if you are adventurous and proficient enough a flat grinder, or bench grind can be used as well
Just remember it's easy to remove material quickly, but if too much is gone then you have to buy new shoes and . . . start all over - again, fitting them. Use a file Lastly, if the drum is scored, etc. Have them "trued" (removed a very small amount of material just to give a "fresh" surface) at a reliable shop with newer equipment and an older operator. No offense to those youngsters out there in the field, but most young "mechanic/technicians" don't merit caps at the head of their "titles" let alone the "privilege" to work on a part from my truck - sorry. Also, be certain to remove any rust on the axle flange and axle to drum / drum to wheel / wheel to drum surfaces and evenly tighten/torque the lug nuts so there is no doubt the assembly is "true" when finished.
Make sure you take your time and check surfaces frequently throughout the process.
Have fun
:-lafI think that is called arcing the shoes. I would think any reputable brake shop that can true the drums can arc the shoes for you. Or you can do what Joe Mc did. Congrats Joe Mc on a job will done but if you count you time as worth any dollars i think having it done be cheaper but perhaps not with the satisfaction you got!!!!
Remember that when you turn a drum you now have a larger diameter and the outside edge of the shoe is a smaller diameter. . so if you put that shoe in the drum you'll have center contact only until you wear them in... . As an example what you have is a small circle inside a larger circle, so when that smaller circle touches the larger circle it only touches in one spot... . (drum=large circle, shoe=small circle)
Actually, brake block used to be oversized so that you could arc the shoe to fit the oversized drum once it was turned... Than the EPA decided that the dust was something that they didn't want in the air... Oversize shoes that aren't arced, will in fact touch heal and toe... .
So they convinced the shoe manufactures to build the shoe to the exact size and any time you arc the shoe you reduce its life... . as its now smaller than a stock shoe... even though it fits better, works better, but just has 20% less friction... .
We still quote this work... but we have to do it one set at a time... and the usual cost is around $150 to turn the drums(2), line the 4 shoes and arc them to fit... . so most guys are so cheap that they pass... . We still do a lot of this on mid range trucks, and buses as well as some large trucks... . in fact enough to keep 1 guy busy most of the time doing this work... . On truck shoes, we order block in 1x, 2x, 3x, this is one oversize, two oversize and 3 oversize based on how large the drum has been turned... as some drums allow is to remove . 180" before they are scrap... they in fact are marked the same way as a light duty vehicle drum... with a maximum size... when this is attempted by hand (arcing) the person doing it creates flat spots on the friction... . these flat spots are areas that range in size, but leave impressions in the friction where they do not contact the drum, thus leaving the shoe as ineffective as it was before the arcing was attempted... .
When a drum is turned the cutter skips and jumps over hard spots, leaving some ridges and craters in the surface of the drum... . so we have to follow the turning of the drum with a grinding stone, to top off the ridges... Thankfully rotors don't have near the problem as drums... ...
We don't do on the vehicle work, this is just work that is packed in the door by our customers...
Joe's comment about bending the steel will in fact damage the lining, no matter if its bonded or riveted to the steel... Once it forced out of shape the lining will not recover... PLEASE do not ever do this..... I guess we throw away 5-7% of the steel we test before we reline it... so that a bent table doesn't get back on a vehicle and give the customer grief... the table is the term for the portion of the steel (shoe) that the block is either bolted, riveted, or bonded to... .
Hopefully his uncle is no longer in business... . the technology is not like mentioned above... Remember that to work on Class 8 trucks requires a certified technician who has been to school, and passed both a written test and has the skills as required by the shop owner to perform the tasks...
We do this for a living... . passing close to 1,000 truck shoes a week through our shop (we're small) as well as having a certified instructor on the staff to do the training to certify the technicians... .
Quite frankly I cringe a lot reading how some of you approach brakes, and repairing them... and the parts that are thrown at solving the problem... I've been an avid poster on this board and I've always approached this and other issues by suggesting that you understand the theory of operation before you diagnosis the problem and than repair it... .
We take this very seriously, and have had to refuse service to some customers as we know their repair is unsafe... . and we know they go down the street to our competition to get the work done... .
In the same tone, remember that your children might be in the vehicle that passes the truck that one of our customers just worked on... . or the mechanic just finished the school bus your kids are riding in.....
I'm sorry if I've offended some of you... . but unsafe brakes puts all of us at risk.....
Actually, brake block used to be oversized so that you could arc the shoe to fit the oversized drum once it was turned... Than the EPA decided that the dust was something that they didn't want in the air... Oversize shoes that aren't arced, will in fact touch heal and toe... .
So they convinced the shoe manufactures to build the shoe to the exact size and any time you arc the shoe you reduce its life... . as its now smaller than a stock shoe... even though it fits better, works better, but just has 20% less friction... .
We still quote this work... but we have to do it one set at a time... and the usual cost is around $150 to turn the drums(2), line the 4 shoes and arc them to fit... . so most guys are so cheap that they pass... . We still do a lot of this on mid range trucks, and buses as well as some large trucks... . in fact enough to keep 1 guy busy most of the time doing this work... . On truck shoes, we order block in 1x, 2x, 3x, this is one oversize, two oversize and 3 oversize based on how large the drum has been turned... as some drums allow is to remove . 180" before they are scrap... they in fact are marked the same way as a light duty vehicle drum... with a maximum size... when this is attempted by hand (arcing) the person doing it creates flat spots on the friction... . these flat spots are areas that range in size, but leave impressions in the friction where they do not contact the drum, thus leaving the shoe as ineffective as it was before the arcing was attempted... .
When a drum is turned the cutter skips and jumps over hard spots, leaving some ridges and craters in the surface of the drum... . so we have to follow the turning of the drum with a grinding stone, to top off the ridges... Thankfully rotors don't have near the problem as drums... ...
We don't do on the vehicle work, this is just work that is packed in the door by our customers...
Joe's comment about bending the steel will in fact damage the lining, no matter if its bonded or riveted to the steel... Once it forced out of shape the lining will not recover... PLEASE do not ever do this..... I guess we throw away 5-7% of the steel we test before we reline it... so that a bent table doesn't get back on a vehicle and give the customer grief... the table is the term for the portion of the steel (shoe) that the block is either bolted, riveted, or bonded to... .
Hopefully his uncle is no longer in business... . the technology is not like mentioned above... Remember that to work on Class 8 trucks requires a certified technician who has been to school, and passed both a written test and has the skills as required by the shop owner to perform the tasks...
We do this for a living... . passing close to 1,000 truck shoes a week through our shop (we're small) as well as having a certified instructor on the staff to do the training to certify the technicians... .
Quite frankly I cringe a lot reading how some of you approach brakes, and repairing them... and the parts that are thrown at solving the problem... I've been an avid poster on this board and I've always approached this and other issues by suggesting that you understand the theory of operation before you diagnosis the problem and than repair it... .
We take this very seriously, and have had to refuse service to some customers as we know their repair is unsafe... . and we know they go down the street to our competition to get the work done... .
In the same tone, remember that your children might be in the vehicle that passes the truck that one of our customers just worked on... . or the mechanic just finished the school bus your kids are riding in.....
I'm sorry if I've offended some of you... . but unsafe brakes puts all of us at risk.....
I do too on occasion and I probably don't know 5% of what you know.
When truck brake questions or technical trailer brake questions show up here I read but remain quiet because I know "jelag" will read it and reply.
If I ever have a serious truck or trailer brake issue that needs to be resolved I will probably travel to Spokane for repair.
The shoes I did on my truck (like Sam fellow TDR member recommended) are still fine, no cracks, no high/low spots and no hopping when I stop. My Uncle had a 14 bay (on each side) repair shop at the White-Freightliner / Volvo Dealership he owned until he divorced and sold it to share with his ex. And, that was back in late 79. So, your hopes of him no longer being in business are true.
To each his own, no offense taken.
To each his own, no offense taken.
I want to thank everyone for their support and ideas on my issues. I pulled my front left caliper last week and removed the piston for a look. There was a rubber shaving such as from the o-ring that seals the piston. The bore looked pretty pitted but clean. There was a wear pattern developing on the piston where it was dragging in the bore. I tried inserting piston at 90 degrees as it looked ok (for a couple of months old). It started hanging up again so I replaced it with a Nappa unit. No more issues so far. I changed out my drums and shoes last night with Nappa's best. All is ok on day one! The old shoes were worn/fit well into the drums. I believe that the drums were warped, or at least the left drum. The wear pattern on the left set of shoes was indicative of being the problematic side. Not sure how to describe it other than it looked like areas of non contact on leading edge outer side. Not sure what would cause that. I am hoping that the cheap parts are the issue. The parts that were on the truck before Autozone were well worn and very near limits so I opted to replace rather that chance turning. I hate throwing parts at a problem but this may be one of those you get what you pay for moments with the Autozone parts. The new shoes and drums fit great on one side and had a little crown on one shoe on the other. I will report back when I get a few more miles on these parts.
Don Dawkins
1998 12v 2500 2wd clubcab
Don Dawkins
1998 12v 2500 2wd clubcab
I have the same hop problem in my truck. After reading this post, I have a much better understanding of what to look for. Ok, so, I have also been having a problem with my truck pulling to the left when I brake hard. Today, I looked at the front rotors (through the wheel as I haven't had a chance to pull the wheels yet), and the rotor on the the passenger side has a groove wearing in about only the outer 1/2" of the circumference. The rest of the rotor is rusty! What do I need to look at when I pull the wheels???
Hammer
TDR MEMBER
Part of the rear brake "hop" comes from people using to hard of a brake shoe.
You want to use the softest and cheapest shoe on the rear that you can so you do not end up with a very grabby rear brake which will lead to the axle "hopping".
I have done this since retired TDR brake guru Sam Peterson told me it way back in 99 with my 98 and I have never had an issue with that at all and it stops smooth and straight... ... Andy
You want to use the softest and cheapest shoe on the rear that you can so you do not end up with a very grabby rear brake which will lead to the axle "hopping".
I have done this since retired TDR brake guru Sam Peterson told me it way back in 99 with my 98 and I have never had an issue with that at all and it stops smooth and straight... ... Andy
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
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Renew
Subscribe
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
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