Brake Stopping Power Question

Attention: TDR Forum Junkies
To the point: Click this link and check out the Front Page News story(ies) where we are tracking the introduction of the 2025 Ram HD trucks.

Thanks, TDR Staff

radiator install this weekend

Need old dead intercooler

Status
Not open for further replies.
This is a ? for you brake AND torque converter guys who love to look at things a bit differently... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .



It's tought to get my rig to stop. I replaced front pads/rotors/calipers/lines. Constant rear shoe adjustments/bleed all lines etc. etc. etc.



Now, the good part... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .



If I pop the transmission into "N" it stops right now!!



So what's going on here. Is this normal for the converter to "drag" or "hold on"? You auto guys have this same feeling as I????



Do not know what I have for a converter but it "feels" pretty stout. I'll be visiting with the PO soon ,,,,,,, aka taking him for a test ride Oo. and will ask him if he knows anything.





OR ... ... ..... my brakes are like, way too small????



Send some discussion my way pleez. Thanks guys!





Scott aka Greenleaf
 
Greenleaf aka Scott,

Are you talking about a one time pedal push or a going down a hill braking event?

Or both?

Hey ain't you supposed to be in school bub? :-laf :-laf

E C Jay
 
doesn't stop as desired

You may have narrower shoes on your truck than I have on the 93. Haven't I seen a post on using larger wheel cylinders? I posted on the dana 70HD a few days ago. They have 13 inch brakes and 3 1/2 inch width. Some trouble to adapt everything but worth the effort I think.



I could diagnose your condition if I drove your truck but it is a long drive just for that. Can't quite figure how the transmission in neutral would be an influence toward the positive.



One thing for sure, woah mule is very important.



James
 
HTML:
Whatever you do with your Parole Officer is really none of our business.

:-laf :-laf :-laf



Scott... need to borrow a 20 lb Danforth (anchor) and 200 feet of line? Makes a nice E brake :D
 
Last edited:
????

Greenleaf said:
This is a ? for you brake AND torque converter guys who love to look at things a bit differently... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .



It's tought to get my rig to stop. I replaced front pads/rotors/calipers/lines. Constant rear shoe adjustments/bleed all lines etc. etc. etc.



Now, the good part... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .



If I pop the transmission into "N" it stops right now!!



So what's going on here. Is this normal for the converter to "drag" or "hold on"? You auto guys have this same feeling as I????



Do not know what I have for a converter but it "feels" pretty stout. I'll be visiting with the PO soon ,,,,,,, aka taking him for a test ride Oo. and will ask him if he knows anything.





OR ... ... ..... my brakes are like, way too small????



Send some discussion my way pleez. Thanks guys!





Scott aka Greenleaf

Sounds like you may have a real "mystery switch". The converter should unlock: when the brake pedal is depressed enough to activate the brake lights. When the accelerator is returned to the idle position and when the accelerator is pressed to the floor( hard acceleration). If the truck will stop while still in drive, then the converter is unlocking at some point. To check to see if the converter is unlocking, drive till the truck shifts into OD and the converter locks up, then with your foot still on the accelerator pedal, with your left foot, touch the brake pedal slightly (enough to activate the brake lights but not enough to activate the brakes, watch the tack, rpms should jump two to four hundred rpm depending on how fast you are going. bg
 
Scott, are you still running the stock converter or have you replaced it with a tighter unit? The only time I notice any extra braking needs is at low rpms/speed close to stopping and that is because my idle is set high and it wants to pull thru the converter.



If your converter is on its way out you may see it starting to drag when braking and that could be part of the problem. When is the braking not as good as you think it should be? Higher mph or the last little bit before you stop? When you let off the throttle do your rpm's drop to almost idle or do they stay up and slowly come down with the speed?
 
Where do I begin........................?

Well first, Tug and Jay are correct. I "should" be in class learning all I can about the new Cummins ISB. However, they aint no longer in foreward mount Bluebirds. So, what's the point. They also want me to buy a $2000. 00 + computer program to troubleshoot these new engines ... ... ... ... . yeah right!! :rolleyes:



My Parol Officer happens to drive a 3500 w/twin stacks :eek:



My truck;

It don't wanna stop, like the last 50 feet or so. The converter keeps pulling me along. So If I pop her into "N" the bus, er' I mean truck stops quite well!

Jezz, now I'm confused.



My slow idle is like 820 rpm's. The engine speed drops quickly.



I have no idea what for a converter this truck has. My "Parol Officer" :-laf may know.



Hope this helps



Scott
 
Scott, not sure if you're referring to the transmission trying to keep pulling the truck through the stop sign, or if the converter is damaged somehow and is actually trying to lock itself together. My truck requires a lot of pedal to stop it mainly because the engine does not want to be stationary. In fact many times when I'm slowing down, especially going down a hill, I'll shift 'er into neutral to take the engine torque out of the stopping equation... . otherwise I sometimes end up using both feet... it just wants to pull right into traffic... kind of like my Dad's M-38 Jeep!



It's actually very interesting this question came up, because I'm looking for a simple way to upgrade the brakes without spending big amounts of rubles..... and I have an idea: A gasser master cylinder. Now hear me out - I'm not entirely sure the gasser 1st gen rigs have the master cylinder I'm thinking of, but it is the aluminum cylinder with the detachable plastic top reservior and the two plastic caps.



Now, on my crew car 74 power wagon I installed that very master cylinder, and I am here to swear to everyone reading this that my big, huge, heavy power wagon stoped-right-NOW! If I wasn't careful it'd lock up all 6 wheels and the truck would skid to a stop. I'm serious - the brakes on that rig were phenomonal, and I don't care what engine is in a rig, vacuum is vacuum whether it be generated by the engine or a pump, but I'm thinkin' the aluminum master cylinders are the way to go. In fact, before I tear my rig apart I'm going to swap the big honkin' cast iron-always-leaks-no-matter-how-new-the-gasket-is master cylinder for the aluminum one... just to see if I really am crazy. The big block 413 and the front Dana 60 dually axle weigh as much as the front end of my D250 Cummins, so I'm thinkin weight really is impartial in this quest.



Whadda yall think?
 
It all depends on the bore size of the master. A smaller bore will be easier to push and will produce more pedal travel with less effort, a larger bore will do just the opposite. The problem I have with my truck is that it wants to lock the rear brakes. It's almost as if the fronts aren't doin squat. I think I'm gonna tear into mine and see if there is a problem. I may do away with the stock proportioning valve and put in an adjustable to take some of the rear away. I need like a mile and a half to stop and the rears are on the verge of lockup (if I modulate them of course).

Travis. .
 
Scott, I have heard that with a tighter converter when the rpm's get up around 800+ the truck will have a tendency to try to pull worse than stock. Maybe PB will chime in with his experiences. Not sure what my rpm's are now but mine acts the same way as yours. I am fairly certain I have a problem with the ABS and brakes. I know the brakes are worn but I can still set the parking brake and it won't pull thru it at an idle. Not so using the foot brake. It is taking more and more pressure to stop it and hold it at a stop sign and sometimes it will roll out after a short time. Going thru some of the old posts I think my ABS controller is going bad and just not applying brake like it should. The same could be happening with yours, or the converter is starting to weld itself, or there is a problem with the master cylinder, or possibly the proportioning valve is not working as it is supposed to.



As far as the master cylinder being a problem I don't buy it. On both my 92 2x4 and 91 4x4, when the brakes were functioning properly, they both stopped as well as any gas powered truck I have owned in the last 30 years. The wear and tear of sevral 100k and the intervening years have made a definite impact and it has to be mechanical. These trucks have to meet specifications for stopping when they are produced. It is inconceivable that a diesel truck would not have to meet the same specs for stopping as their gas counter part both from a safety and marketing stand point. Yes the brakes are undersized for what they are trying to stop, but, if it ain't stopping right there is a problem! Its not becuase of the type of MC, or the size of brakes, or whatever, its because something is worn and/or not functioning correctly. Finding which piece in which vehicle that is not up to par is where things get tedious, annoying, and sometimes expensive. For those of you that get the TDR magazine the last couple of issues had several excellent articles on brakes, braking, associated parts, and the possible effects of tampering and tuning.



Weight. This is the second post where somebody has made the comment the B series Cummins can't weight much more than a big block gasser. Come on!!!! The Cummins is not some light weight gasser V8 made for a light duty truck! This is a real diesel engine intended for a lot more than our trucks are ever capable of. The crank alone could function as an anchor for a fair sized boat! You have to take the head off with a fair sized cherry picker! I can pick up a bare 440 block and set in the box of my truck. If I tried that with a bare Cummins block I would be due for surgery where a perfect stranger with sharp instruments is waaaayyyyyy too close to parts of the body I consider precious. I am told the Cummins B tips the scales at a svelte 1100 lbs in our trucks. Now I know for a fact a 440 will not even come close to that. The truck engines are the heaviest and the 318/361 won't make that weight and I seriously doubt the 413 would either.



The glaring truth is we are using braking systems designed for a lot less weight and were marginal at best when new. Add the miles, the time, and in some cases the abuse, the fact we ain't dragging our feet to stop is a testament to the parts involved. The best way I have found aside from major expensive upgrades is to use good parts, use them often, and look for the problems with the existing pieces. Boring? Yes, but my truck stops.



My . 02
 
Scott

It sounds to me like you have a torque convertor or idle speed problem. It sounds like you've replaced everything and it's still hard to come to a complete stop. When you put it in gear, does it lunge or try to drive away making you push harder on the brake? If after you come to a stop and put it in "N" with your foot on the brake, does it "unload" dramatically? The fact that it stops good in neutral says to me it's trying to overcome the brakes, which it should not do. On another note. I also wouldn't upsize my rear brake shoes and slaves unless I towed heavy most of the time. On an empty truck it will give you more rear brake than you need, resulting in rear brake lock under hard braking. I know our trucks have ABS, but as soon as it kicks in your braking distance goes WAY up. These are just my thoughts spilling out of my brain.

Travis. .
 
Yep-er, right-on.



When I put the 'ol transmission in gear the truck tips to one side/lunges forward/I apply heavy brake pressure. When I pop her into neutral the engine dramatically "unloads"



A year ago @ factory power I could hold the vehicle back with the brakes, all the while @ WOT. Now, @ the current power level (no clue) I will not hold the rear tires while @ partial throttle. Does this have anything to do w/it?



GL
 
Scott

It sounds like your idle is too high, or your convertor is screwing up. If you don't have a tach, find a way to check idle speed. If your idle sounds high, try slowing it down to see if problem goes away. If your idle is ok, start looking at convertor.

Travis. .
 
Idle speed in "N" and all accessories off is 820rpm



When in "D" it drops noticably. With a/c on and in "D" it drops even more. ( Note; nice plumbs of grey smoke here :) )



With a hot engine on a hot day, in "D" and a/c on it's down around 650 or a bit less. I don't want to slow it down any. Even @ 650 rpm the engine wants to drive the truck through a red light.



Scott
 
Sounds to me like torque convertor is too "tight" (stall speed too low). Talk to someone who makes torque convertors and tell them what you've done and what you have. They should be able to make a recommendation what to do. Even though your idle is ok, you are probably making more power now at idle requiring a slightly "looser" convertor. The same convertor can act very differently with different power levels infront of it. Again, call someone who deals in convertors and they can set you straight.

Travis. .
 
When did it start trying to drive thru the converter or has it always done that?



Have you replaced the injectors and tweaked the pump and then the problem started?



You either have a tighter aftermarket converter or a stock converter getting ready to seize. The plumes of gray smoke kinda indicate slurping a bit more fuel at an idle than normal. You are seeing one effect of using a converter not matched to your application and doing just what it was intended for, chiefly torque multiplication. In gear the idle is being pulled down way too much and its just loading the converter.



You basically have 2 choices if the current situation is not to your liking. Turn the fuel down and get the idle back under control or get a custom converter that will allow a higher stall but still give a good fluid coupling. Its possible but its not gonna be cheap.



Meanwhile, enjoy the feeling of having a tiger by the tail. :D :D
 
It has always seemed to do this from day one. The wife doesn't like it but I don't seem to be bothered much. She get's real nervous sometimes as I approach a stop sign, and the intersection is filling the windshield... ..... fast :)
 
Solution

Your best bet probably is to send me your torque converter and I will send you mine, mine sure as heck won't drag you through the intersection, as a matter of fact it might not even get you back up to speed after you go through the intersection. :rolleyes: bg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top