2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Brake wear

[Gordon Maney]

I have a 2001 2500 Ram 4X4. The truck has just over 125,000 miles on it. Not long ago I was starting to get a bit of a brake noise from the back; this with original brakes all around.

Inspection of the brakes revealed that I had 60-70 percent of the original lining thickness on the front, and very little on the rear. I never had the idea that the brakes were not first rate with good stopping power. All the rotors are worn too much to use, so there has been considerable braking action and effectiveness.

Most of my driving is highways miles, and I live on gravel, driving two miles of gravel daily, a mile in and a mile out.

So..... why? Why are the rears gone and the fronts have lots of lining? The rears wore evenly. No stuck calipers or stuck pistons. Each pad on each brake is thin, and about evenly so. One had gotten down to virtually no lining.

Thoughts on this? An objective analysis might suggest the rears are applying harder than the fronts.

Discuss... .

 

[georgej]

If you bought the truck used the previous owner probably just replaced the front pads only. I get about twice the mileage out of the rear pads, however the braking material had seperated from the steel back plate and the pad was only held in place by a detent in the plate.

If you purchased the truck new and the back pads wear out first I would suspect a problem

I would check for frozen calipers and make sure to flush the system making sure the lines to the front are not clogged with disintegrating rubber hose or somthing. .

 

[Gordon Maney]

I apologize, I did not mention, I did buy the truck new, and all of the brakes are original. The even pad wear tells me no piston or caliper was stuck.

I intend to flush it. I am using all rebuilt calipers and new rotors.

 

[jelag]

Brake pads are bonded to the backing plate... . 2 things will allow them to come off the backing plate...

1 - incorrect bonding... . a good adhesive bond is heat set in an oven under temperature and pressure... . if either is incorrect the bond will fail... . too little heat, too much heat, or too low pressure and the bond is weak and can/will fail...

the bonding adhesive we use is by a very special company... (if I could spell their name I print it) a 5 gal pail that has to be kept in a refrigerator when not in use, has a shelf life of 120 days costs close to $300. 00... . we insert a thermocouple in the bond and record steps up the set temperature and than cool the same way... . all bonded products are done the same way... . with larger equipment that is more automatic than what we use... .

2 - incorrect preparation of the steel is the other most common reason for a bad bond... we use and abrasive blaster, like a sand blaster or glass bead machine with a product called ruby garnet that cleans the metal surface and leaves little crevices in the metal for the bonding adhesive to adhere to... . chemicals, oil from your skin, paint, or moisture all leave there mark in a poor bond... . allowing the metal to sit overnight means a poor bond... what we clean today we bond today... . fingerprints mean a poor bond and moisture that means rust later on and a failure... .

3 - excessive heat by the driver is the prime reason for failure if both of the 2 above are done correctly... . the adhesive we use will fail at a temperature above 550 *F. Usually at this temperature the resins in the brake pad, brake block, or clutch friction also fail any you see a lot of heat checks in the organic, or semi metalic friction...

The stock clutch disc in your truck is made of resins and materials..... they all fail in the 350 - 450*F range... . so if you slip the clutch and overheat it, it will fail... I don't know of a friction company that makes clutch facings, or brake block that will take excessive heat, except Aramid, (kevlar) or Asbestos when your talking about a organic friction...

Ceramic friction is another story and another thread if your interested..... we do a lot of custom bonding on industrial goods, and old stuff..... its not cost effective to do brake pads for trucks... but we do some pads for industrial stuff that the customer can't get in a reasonable amount of time...

If you have other questions let me know and I'll try and answer... . if you have an interest in full ceramic friction, like clutch facings I'd be happy to share how it functions, and how's its made...

 

[Gordon Maney]

Brake pads are bonded to the backing plate... . 2 things will allow them to come off the backing plate...

1 - incorrect bonding... . a good adhesive bond is heat set in an oven under temperature and pressure... . if either is incorrect the bond will fail... . too little heat, too much heat, or too low pressure and the bond is weak and can/will fail...

the bonding adhesive we use is by a very special company... (if I could spell their name I print it) a 5 gal pail that has to be kept in a refrigerator when not in use, has a shelf life of 120 days costs close to $300. 00... . we insert a thermocouple in the bond and record steps up the set temperature and than cool the same way... . all bonded products are done the same way... . with larger equipment that is more automatic than what we use... .

2 - incorrect preparation of the steel is the other most common reason for a bad bond... we use and abrasive blaster, like a sand blaster or glass bead machine with a product called ruby garnet that cleans the metal surface and leaves little crevices in the metal for the bonding adhesive to adhere to... . chemicals, oil from your skin, paint, or moisture all leave there mark in a poor bond... . allowing the metal to sit overnight means a poor bond... what we clean today we bond today... . fingerprints mean a poor bond and moisture that means rust later on and a failure... .

3 - excessive heat by the driver is the prime reason for failure if both of the 2 above are done correctly... . the adhesive we use will fail at a temperature above 550 *F. Usually at this temperature the resins in the brake pad, brake block, or clutch friction also fail any you see a lot of heat checks in the organic, or semi metalic friction...

The stock clutch disc in your truck is made of resins and materials..... they all fail in the 350 - 450*F range... . so if you slip the clutch and overheat it, it will fail... I don't know of a friction company that makes clutch facings, or brake block that will take excessive heat, except Aramid, (kevlar) or Asbestos when your talking about a organic friction...

Ceramic friction is another story and another thread if your interested..... we do a lot of custom bonding on industrial goods, and old stuff..... its not cost effective to do brake pads for trucks... but we do some pads for industrial stuff that the customer can't get in a reasonable amount of time...

If you have other questions let me know and I'll try and answer... . if you have an interest in full ceramic friction, like clutch facings I'd be happy to share how it functions, and how's its made...

I did not say that any lining material came off my pads. I am wondering if you intended your post to be in a different thread?

 

[jelag]

My comment was for georgej, where the brake pad had separated from the backing plate...

 

[robbiesworld]

I have seen the same thing on my moms Mercedes. Her brakes were squeeking so I just assumed it was fronts and after replacing the fronts I realized it was the rears. Same with my brothers Tahoe I actually replaced the rears and left the fronts alone. over 120K stock pads still 70%.



The only thing I can think is the rears never really bite hard or they would slide the rear wheels so maybe they are always riding the disc and... ... yeah this sounds stupid. lol



I found this response to the same question about a VW



What you have been told is correct; today with ABS and especially vehicles with EBD (electronic brake force distribution), rear brakes often will wear out faster than the fronts. My mother had a 1998 Honda Accord EX 4 door and being that she lived in a hilly area of the Bay Area in California, the rear brakes wore out more than twice as fast as the fronts.



Now, as much as the laws of physics applies in most situations, it differs when you apply electronics to the matter:

in some vehicles, the rear brakes will actually apply with greater force at first, than the fronts especially in a panic stop in an effort to reduce the effects of weight transfer and the "plowing effect" of the front brakes taking up most of the load. The idea is to reduce braking distance in moderate to severe stops. It does seem to work, but it is very hard on brake pad wear and sometimes rotors getting out of round.



This is not to say that you may or may not have a problem with the rear brakes, especially if the caliper pistons are dragging or the parking brake cable is not fully releasing tension. These items need to be inspected especially if a burning smell has been noted.



Your 2002 VW did not have EBD, I believe that all new VW's since 2005 have had EBD and this has had an impact on the wear that brakes have. Cars that don't have EBD or ABS, will follow the tradition of frnt brakes wearing at least twice as often as rear brakes (on my own car, I still have the original drum brake linings after 215,000 miles; but I've replaced tons of frnt brake pads and rotors!).



So, I don't think that the dealership is giving you a line. In the Bay Area of California, where I worked in VW dealerships on/off for over 25 years, many people wore out the rear brakes before the frnts and usually it was a two sets of rear brakes to one set of frnt brakes ratio. In some cases it was even worse than that if they lived in a very hilly area.



Hope this helps, a car nut.

 

[B.G. Smith]

Could it be the The gravel road? Grit and abrasive debris from the road might be affecting the rear brake wear. bg