Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting Bullet Casting

[KBurgoyne]

I'm thinking of getting into the business, but I would like to get schooled before I dive in head first. Any information on readings, techniques, supplies, ect would be appreciated. Anybody feel like getting out of the business? This would be mostly for 45 rifle and I take quality over quantity.
I have heard that the lyman casting handbook 3rd edition is one of the best recourses, but it went out production before I was born. I would like to cast up to the 740 grain FNGC's to see what they can do.

The one on the right is a 560 grain. Queue maniacal laughter :-laf:-laf:-laf


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[GHarman]

What kind of "Quantity" are you talking about? Personal use or for sale? It is all about QUALITY or the accuracy will suffer!
Ya need BEST Quality bullet moulds and a lead smelting pot. A thermometer, and lots of time at the bench! I can tell you from experience that a B-box type of work station with air control away from the casting process, and away from your breathing zone is a MUST! I do cast from time to time, but far less than in the past! Usually outside in nice weather. The need is no longer a priority as it once was. Scrap lead is not as widely available as it once was, either. Wheel weights are no longer made from lead alloys and scrap lead pipe is not quite as common as it was 50 years ago!
You also will need a Sizer/luber with the correct diameter dies. Pick the type of lubricant for your specific uses. Here are some articles that I found very informative and good reviewing! No one knows it all and seeking better, more efficient ways of doing things is always a good idea. Heres the link to a very lengthy PDF file. Have fun.
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_All_LASC_Articles.pdf

GregH

 

[GHarman]

What rifling twist are you using for the "Lead LOG"?

GregH

 

[GHarman]

Used Lyman books are available, but they are limited to the technology of the time. There are better moulds and custom Mould makers and You will find that the load data can be different with todays powders! IMHO, the Hoch and the Veral Smith (http://www.lbtmoulds.com/moulds.shtml) bullet moulds are far superior to the lymans. I've had to many Lyman moulds there were eccentric. Sometimes as much as .010". That is not conducive to maintaining concentricity when sizing and lubricating.

GregH

Here is an example of some of the older books available.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lyman-Cast-Bullet-Handbook-1973-Catalog-/151456540708

 

[KBurgoyne]

It is a 1in14 twist http://www.montanabulletworks.com/page11.html

Do you have a preference on the best "instructional" data out there. The log is an NEI.
I was thinking of having the BFR converted to 458 B&M. http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/ai.cgi?sn=pYBlKaCxAp&catid=553 (This might not work, its a membership site)
It is a 300 RUM cut to 2.3 and reshaped with forming dies. No fire forming required. The guy who did the testing has reported getting over 75 shots out of cases. Energy wise it is just above the 458 Winchester but designed for short actions.

 

[GHarman]

What is the length of the finished bullet? What velocity! There is a program available to calculate, given the twist @ 1-14", the velocity required to stabilize it!
GregH

 

[KBurgoyne]

it is a 1.7in with the ballistic coefficient of a baseball.

 

[GHarman]

Actually that is not a true statement. The length is more that 3X the diameter! A far superior sectional density than a round ball with low mass. The BC may be lower than a .50 caliber 750 gr. Hornady AMAX, but you are not paying $3.00 each, either!
The minimum velocity for stabilization for this bullet, given the parameters you have established is 1000 FPS. Now that also depends on temperature.
Here is the calculator. http://kwk.us/twist.html

Use the lead number. The auto input is for a jacketed bullet.
Have FUN!

GregH

 

[KBurgoyne]

That shouldnt be too difficult. Thanks, I got some reading to do.

 

[The patriot]

I've inherited a TON of lead, a SAECO furnace & a I have a hungry Guide gun......following this thread.:-laf

 

[KBurgoyne]

Anybody have a recommendation for a good "starter set". Like the things they have been using for 30 years that have not failed yet. I don't have a brand in mind just a good set to get my learn on. I am not doing this to lower costs. I want a source of fine quality heavy stuff.

 

[GHarman]

Patriot!
Do You have a Guidegun with the microgroove rifling or the new version of the ballard rifling? The microgrooves don't seem to grip the lead bullets to well at the higher velocities.

KBurgoyne,
In todays economy with tools widely available, I don't see any "kits" available other than what Lyman has to offer. Lee has the cheapest lead furnace. I have a Lyman and 2 lee 20#r's. Lead dippers are applicable for some moulds and not so good for others. The bottom pour furnace works best IMHO for a heavily grooved bullets. The hydraulic pressure pushes the molten lead into the tiniest grooves of a mould block set that is up to casting temperature. They also have the volume for gang moulds! I have two; a Hensley and Gibbs 6 cavity .44 mould that throws 250 gr Keith type bullets. LOTS OF LEAD REQUIRED each pour. A H&G .45/ 225 Gr. 4 cavity mould that also require a significant quantity of lead.

Getting moulds to release consistently has been a problem at one time or another. An eccentric cavity can lock the bullet into one side.
For a concentric cavity, smoking the cavity with a wooden match creates a carbon layer that acts as a barrier between the lead and the hot mould block, preventing soldiering. That is "old school" stuff. Now, there is commercial mould release, available! How well it works?? I have no clue!!

I use Beeswax as a flux. You can use commercial stuff, if ya like. Beeswax is cheap and non toxic. It smokes a lot but I usually light it off before stirring the pot while the flames are still burning.

Just be clean about your self and work area. Don't do this where you can track debris into your living quarters, ESPECIALLY if there are CHILDREN around.
Bullet lubricants are really critical, especially at the higher velocities. LBT Blue and Lyman Moly lube are some of the best.
If Ya shoot blackpowder cartridge rifles or a rifle musket with minie balls. A mix of 50%/50% beeswax and petroleum jelly is an outstanding home made lube and very similar to the original lubricants! Combine it in a double boiler and mix thoroughly. Pour into a luber sizer or set the bullets into a tin pan (.58 Minies ) base down, pour lube into the pan covering all grooves. Let it harden. Use a deprimed 28 Gauge plastic shot shell cut just a little longer than the length of the minie, inside dimension. Cut a dowel that fits through the primer hole. (You can drill the hole larger and make an ejector pin out of brass or steel.). Slip the case mouth over the minie and press through the lube with a series of twists until ya hit the bottom of the pan. Pull it free and push out the lubed bullet with the ejector pin. WORKS GREAT! That lube keeps the powder fouling soft as long as the humidity levels are reasonable. In the dry West, ya may need to use a blow tube, just to get some moisture into the dirty bore to keep the black powder fouling manageable. Bt that is another bunny trail =)!

If Ya can lay out your goals in more detail, I may be able to make some starter tooling recommendations.

GregH

 

[KBurgoyne]

The basic goal is to produce better quality bullets than what are available. Most companies don't bother to produce the big stuff that is designed for a longer COL than 2.550 because of the popularity of the Marlin I guess. Availability of stuff like the ones pictured is poor, and when you can find them the high quality stuff runs over fifty cents a shot. Don't buy much because of sticker shock, run out quick, come crawling back for more. So quality and availability are the two main concerns. Speed can wait. I don't mind at all starting on a burner and cast iron pot.

 

[GHarman]

Thats the way I did it. But before I was educated in the issues of handling lead. My Mom and I cast round balls on the kitchen stove for a long rifle when I was 15 years old! That is the modern "burner and pot method"! That was 51 years ago! We used scraps of lead pipe! It was really smelly and really a mess!

Get a Lee lead pot 20# capacity. Big bullets use ALOT OF LEAD!. Heres an example and description, Shop around for best price! http://www.midwayusa.com/product/645810/lee-pro-4-20-lb-furnace-110-volt

Lyman and Saeco, as well as other makers have lead pots also. You should have an ingot mould like a C.I. cornbread pan or a commercial ingot mould. Making proper alloys requires some mixing and hardness testing and segregation of lots. A Hardness tester, A luber and sizing die and nose punch (Fitted to the bullet nose). (I prefer the Lyman for this application, but there are other systems out there. However, You CANNOT interchange tooling between manufacturers. Lyman dies do not fit Saeco lubers, etc.. Size the bullet to the throat diameter, NOT the groove diameter! You are on the right track! Yes, those commercial bullets are really pricey!
Make up a list of tools that you are considering and post it. Make sure you have the proper mould handles for that mould set! So they open and close with no interference. A wooden mallet is also necessary at times. When I get a stuck bullet. I strike the hinge of the handles, never the mould block. Most of the time , all it takes is a tap! Lyman moulds are cut with a cherry, they are not lathe bored. Hence, an oval cross section if the operator has not cleared away the chips as the block halves are closed down upon the cherry. Lathe bored moulds are far superior.

GregH

 

[The patriot]

GHarman, it doesn't specify on the bbl. If my other guns are any indication, if it were microgroove it would say so on the bbl.
It has an XS long rail on it, so it may be covered. The sights are AO Ashley IIRC. I actually like the Brockman sights better, but no one could tell me if they'd work with the rail..... anyway...
It's "new" enough to have the crossbolt safety, it also has porting, so it's not that new because they stopped that. Looking down the bbl it looks like regular rifling. I'm guessing ballard. I have a couple Marlins, so I know what the microgroove looks like.
I have about 500 new 45-70 brass, also 500 remington 405's. I think it would be cool to run some real pumpkins down the tube.:laf: 500gr +

 

[GHarman]

Patriot!
OH! YEAH! Reloader 7 powder worked well for me! A good solid crimp as a separate step, after you have seated the bullet!
They will Slap the Snot out of Ya! ASK BIG!!:-laf Sounds like You have the "Ballard" style rifling. IIRC the microgroove had 12+ shallow lands/grooves. My 1977-78 vintage, 1895 rifle had the microgroove barrel, with a 1-20" twist. Watch the bullet length on the heavies! Plenty of lube grooves, a square & flat base!
I'd LOVE to have one of the new 1895 large ring carbines with the 18" tube! Oo.

Have a BALL!
GregH

 

[BIGNASTY]

On Post#12 Greg said that Beeswax and Petroleum jelly at 50/50 works. I have gone to a 50/50 mix of Beeswax and KY jelly (DONT ASK QUESTIONS PLEASE!!) It works for me and some of the others around here that help me figure out bullet casting and black powder cartridge reloading for my Sharps.

One thing is a FOR SURE buy the best bullet molds you can afford there is a WORLD of difference in off the shelf products than there is with a HIGH QUALITY mold. I smoke them with a stick match as do almost all the old school shooters that shoot OUR favorite Sharps rifles. Saeco lube/seizer work flawlessly.

In my Malin 45/70 I have and continue to search for more of the newer bullet lubes until I find what works. I haven't had as much time and experience with this new style as Greg, I have most of the time in the chamber and tube the Garretts 540 gr Butt Busters, like I said I haven't fiddled around with this rifle reloading for it enough to risk my or someone elses AXX with my Experimental rounds until im confident that they will do the job.

 

[KBurgoyne]

If it is a marlin it should have the Ballard rifling. I recently found out that mine was an REP Remington manufacture. They took over Marlin and produced some lemons for a few years. http://www.gunblast.com/Marlin-1895CB.htm

I am going to take it to a local Remington certified armorer, and if I can get my money back I will. Mine isn't too bad, but a close look reveals sloppiness in the machining, and fit. Anyway I recently bought several hundred bullets from Western Bullet Company. They are sized to .458 which is what I need for the BFR, but the Marlin prefers .459. The quality is decent, but you can tell they were speed cast to keep the price down. I have used these http://www.midwayusa.com/product/19...ead-flat-nose-gas-check?cm_vc=subv11988196250 in the Marlin.

They are one of the best bullets available and line up perfectly for the max length of the action. They are on sale now plus the black Friday discount code you can get them for a lot less than I did. You want heavier.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm has a 525

http://www.competitor-pistol.com/jb bullets.html has a 550. Above that you run into problems with the bullets being designed for a longer COL than the marlin can handle. That can be cured with neck tension, but there is so little room left in the case that the charge is pretty wee

I have not had a chance to use Re7 because I have not been able to find any. IMR and H4198 are very similar. On the burn rate chart they go 3 in row, Re7, then IMR, then H4198. I prefer H4198 over IMR 4198 just because the granules are smaller and it meters better, but the charges only differ about 5% between the two. IMR 3031 and Re 10x also have a nearly identical burn rate. I have used 3031, works well, but a bit smokey which is fun until you have to clean the gun.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Just food for thought if your going to reload in volume or in the size of those Artillery Rounds that you pictured you might want to look at the melting pot that I bought, I had a small lyman that worked well for handgun size bullet casting. My new one is the RCBS Pro Melt. It holds lots of lead and keeps it at an even temp because of the amount of lead that im able to put in it as compared to the littler Lyman, those big bullets use up the lead at an alarming rate waiting for lead to melt and temp up to specs takes time and fun out of the project

I didn't go back and look but I think that Greg said that he uses Beeswax to clean the lead pot, I use Paraffin wax, drop it in and stir, will have to read back a post or two to make sure that's what he said and give the Beeswax a try.

 

[KBurgoyne]

On Post#12 Greg said that Beeswax and Petroleum jelly at 50/50 works. I have gone to a 50/50 mix of Beeswax and KY jelly (DONT ASK QUESTIONS PLEASE!!) It works for me and some of the others around here that help me figure out bullet casting and black powder cartridge reloading for my Sharps.

That Sharps must be a frisky one. Does your wife know about this "relationship".