I heard that it can't cost them more than about 40 to 50 bones to make one of those things and put it on the shelf!
-
TDR Magazine subscribers receive more than the magazine! You also gain additional forum privileges!
Details here: TDR Privileges
Subscribe to TDR Magazine here: https://www.tdr-online.com/
bully dog box
- Thread starter dieselpilot1969
- Start Date
Attention: TDR Forum Junkies To the point: Click this link and check out the Front Page News story(ies) where we are tracking the introduction of the 2025 Ram HD trucks.
Thanks, TDR Staff
- Status
Dieselpilot1969 -
Your not seeing the big picture, sure there may be only $50 - $60 in parts.....
$12. 00 per PC Board
$25. 00 in parts
$5. 00 for conformal coating
$15. 00 for the box
But, theres the Dyno they bought to test it, the rent for the building, the payroll for 4 or 5 guys designing it, CAD Software, PC's, Microsoft software and the employees to keep it patched, the labor to assemble, test, package and ship, utilities, vehicles, telephones, friday beer busts etcetera.....
They probably invest about $600,000 over a three year period and need to recover that by selling what, 1200 boxes??
That puts you back to $500. 00 each.
Theres always a bigger picture, besides, you can always build one yourself
I'm always in the same boat as they are, there's more than meets the eye.
Your not seeing the big picture, sure there may be only $50 - $60 in parts.....
$12. 00 per PC Board
$25. 00 in parts
$5. 00 for conformal coating
$15. 00 for the box
But, theres the Dyno they bought to test it, the rent for the building, the payroll for 4 or 5 guys designing it, CAD Software, PC's, Microsoft software and the employees to keep it patched, the labor to assemble, test, package and ship, utilities, vehicles, telephones, friday beer busts etcetera.....
They probably invest about $600,000 over a three year period and need to recover that by selling what, 1200 boxes??
That puts you back to $500. 00 each.
Theres always a bigger picture, besides, you can always build one yourself
I'm always in the same boat as they are, there's more than meets the eye.
Last edited:
Just out of curiosity how much hp does the bully dog box add? I looked at there web site but couldn't find anything about it. I did a search on the board and didn't find much info either. thanks
By the way, can the BullyDog HP levels be changed going down the road?
are you sure?
The box is bound to leave a signature in the ECMs memory. for one thing, the box does boost fooling and the ECM does record boost levels, a long with lots of other data. it would be pretty easy for anyone with a passion for denying you warranty coverage to prove that you had a fueling box on there.
But yea, the techs at DC service bays won't know anything unless of course they know how to dump data from the ECM and study your driving habbits...
But yea, the techs at DC service bays won't know anything unless of course they know how to dump data from the ECM and study your driving habbits...
that's kinda what i was thinkin, if you had a problem and wanted to warranty it , I woul think they would cover all there bases before approving warranty repair, just my . 02
I got it, I'll ask bullydog and see what they say about it
It sure seems there is a lot of misconception about raising of fuel pressure. The fact is the pressure with an EZ is absolutely the same as without, But... . Heres a long post.
What the modules actually do is 'Scale' the data that it sees from the Fuel and Boost pressure sensores and scale it back before relaying the now modified analog signal to the ECM. Its the same as a speedo correction box scaling pulses, in this case a voltage is scaled.
You pump is capable of making 23,000 PSI, but adding the module doesn't change that. What does happen is that when idling, the pressure would be say 6000 PSI, and since there is no Boost, there is no load or need for additional fuel, the signal is relayed to the ECM as 6000 PSI, everything is happy.
When you increase power, the boost rises, and for an EZ on '4' it appears around 2 PSI Boost, the module begins to Scale back the data sent to the ECM. When a given TPS position and boost level programmed in the ECM is expecting 11,000 PSI, the module would be scaling the value so that the actual pressure would be perhaps 16,000 PSI, but the ECM is only being told it is 11,000.
The ECM still fires the injectors for the same duration, but because the pressure is actually higher than what it thinks it is, more fuel is delivered.
This continues right up to the max, a bit over about 23,000 PSI, at which point the EZ appears to tell the ECM that it is in fact 23,000 PSI, and the actual power curve flattens back out, but, since this would drive the engine over Max RPM, it begins to defuel anyway.
The different positions in the EZ then only changes at which Boost pressure the Fuel Pressure begins to be scaled, and to what amount that scaling is.
On '4', it appears to be about 9%. An interesting thing to note is that the Fuel Mileage is computed on specific flow, pressure vs time, and since the ECM is being lied to on pressure, the ECM thinks it is burning 9% less fuel. This can be read from the ECM as total fuel consumed and a little math can show that it is wrong, but were talking about about service shop mechs who really don't care what you are doing with your truck anyway.
It seems to me that the increasing of average pressure may decrease the lifetime of the pump but who really knows, yet. At higher pressure, more fuel is fed to the injectors, even when they are not using all the fuel that is supplied, and flows past the injectors to the return gallery, in theory the injectors are running cooler and better lubed. At higher pressure, more fuel is also being used to cool and lubricate the fuel pump, though I seem to think more of it is actually just passing the cascade or overflow valve and being returned to the tank. Excess fuel pressure, in excess of 23,000 PSI opens the limiting valve on the rail and is also returned to the tank via the fuel filter.
The pressure boxes were first because they are the simplest.
The timing boxes necessarily do the same thing, but with the Crank and Cam position sensors, again changing this data to the new desired pulse time and duration necessary to fool the ECM into thinking that all is normal, and that the engine isn't working as hard as it really is.
Timing is much, much, much more complex than analog scaling, and is subject to many errors and secrets, that Cummins will never give up, BD and EZ and Bully and others will just have to learn them themselves.
I think the final ultimate electronic uprate will include all of these methods, plus some of the other sensors like air temp.
The common thing with all the electronic updates, except for any non-existant ECM reprogram update, is that, Yes, ALL data is recorded, Boost, Rail Pressure, Temps, Fuel Flows, etc, but the performance gains are handled by lying to the ECM, and it records these lies as facts, and no one will ever know the truth, except when one of the values is allowed to be reported to the ECM out of bounds for normal.
This is just my programmed perception of reality within the MATRIX. Gee, this feels different... ... .....
What the modules actually do is 'Scale' the data that it sees from the Fuel and Boost pressure sensores and scale it back before relaying the now modified analog signal to the ECM. Its the same as a speedo correction box scaling pulses, in this case a voltage is scaled.
You pump is capable of making 23,000 PSI, but adding the module doesn't change that. What does happen is that when idling, the pressure would be say 6000 PSI, and since there is no Boost, there is no load or need for additional fuel, the signal is relayed to the ECM as 6000 PSI, everything is happy.
When you increase power, the boost rises, and for an EZ on '4' it appears around 2 PSI Boost, the module begins to Scale back the data sent to the ECM. When a given TPS position and boost level programmed in the ECM is expecting 11,000 PSI, the module would be scaling the value so that the actual pressure would be perhaps 16,000 PSI, but the ECM is only being told it is 11,000.
The ECM still fires the injectors for the same duration, but because the pressure is actually higher than what it thinks it is, more fuel is delivered.
This continues right up to the max, a bit over about 23,000 PSI, at which point the EZ appears to tell the ECM that it is in fact 23,000 PSI, and the actual power curve flattens back out, but, since this would drive the engine over Max RPM, it begins to defuel anyway.
The different positions in the EZ then only changes at which Boost pressure the Fuel Pressure begins to be scaled, and to what amount that scaling is.
On '4', it appears to be about 9%. An interesting thing to note is that the Fuel Mileage is computed on specific flow, pressure vs time, and since the ECM is being lied to on pressure, the ECM thinks it is burning 9% less fuel. This can be read from the ECM as total fuel consumed and a little math can show that it is wrong, but were talking about about service shop mechs who really don't care what you are doing with your truck anyway.
It seems to me that the increasing of average pressure may decrease the lifetime of the pump but who really knows, yet. At higher pressure, more fuel is fed to the injectors, even when they are not using all the fuel that is supplied, and flows past the injectors to the return gallery, in theory the injectors are running cooler and better lubed. At higher pressure, more fuel is also being used to cool and lubricate the fuel pump, though I seem to think more of it is actually just passing the cascade or overflow valve and being returned to the tank. Excess fuel pressure, in excess of 23,000 PSI opens the limiting valve on the rail and is also returned to the tank via the fuel filter.
The pressure boxes were first because they are the simplest.
The timing boxes necessarily do the same thing, but with the Crank and Cam position sensors, again changing this data to the new desired pulse time and duration necessary to fool the ECM into thinking that all is normal, and that the engine isn't working as hard as it really is.
Timing is much, much, much more complex than analog scaling, and is subject to many errors and secrets, that Cummins will never give up, BD and EZ and Bully and others will just have to learn them themselves.
I think the final ultimate electronic uprate will include all of these methods, plus some of the other sensors like air temp.
The common thing with all the electronic updates, except for any non-existant ECM reprogram update, is that, Yes, ALL data is recorded, Boost, Rail Pressure, Temps, Fuel Flows, etc, but the performance gains are handled by lying to the ECM, and it records these lies as facts, and no one will ever know the truth, except when one of the values is allowed to be reported to the ECM out of bounds for normal.
This is just my programmed perception of reality within the MATRIX. Gee, this feels different... ... .....
Last edited:
Dieselman-
Tell me if I'm understanding you correctly. You're saying that the max rail pressure is never increased. What these "pressure boxes" do is fool the computer into giving the injectors more than standard fuel at a time when the pulse width is greater. Is this right? It seems to me the only way to get more fuel in there at the same max pressure is to open the injector for a longer period of time. Are these boxes changing pulse width via fuel pressure fooling?
-Scott
Tell me if I'm understanding you correctly. You're saying that the max rail pressure is never increased. What these "pressure boxes" do is fool the computer into giving the injectors more than standard fuel at a time when the pulse width is greater. Is this right? It seems to me the only way to get more fuel in there at the same max pressure is to open the injector for a longer period of time. Are these boxes changing pulse width via fuel pressure fooling?
-Scott
No. Here comes a flawed analogy.....
If you have a garden hose, and you put your thumb over the end, and you turn the water on 1/2 turn, then you take your thumb off the end for one second, a pint of water comes out.
Put your thumb back on the hose, now open the tap 1 full turn, the pressure is now higher, now take your thumb off the end for one second, and two pints of water flow out.
The pulse remains the same, only the pressure has increased, more water is delivered.
Now the fooling mode is like this, you are the ECM, you wife is the EZ
, you tell her to open the tap 1/2 turn, she tells you its open 1/2 turn, she actually has it open a full turn, you lift your thumb for 1 second, you believe that only one pint has flowed, you don't now the difference, the flowers die from over watering, you don't care.
See?
As for max pressure, when messing with mine around the dealer with is box, the max pressure never exceeded 16,000 without the EZ, but did hit 20,000 with it on '4'. I think that if I were to watch this on a Dyno, or while pulling my trailer, I think that I would see the same trend, but would be able to max the PSI out.
I'm not saying that the pressure isn't increased, I'm saying that it is increased at a rate faster and higher at any given ECM perceived TPS and Boost position but that it does not ever exceed max spec for the pump as it is mechanically limited, and that at any given time unless at 0 throttle, the pressure is higher than it would be otherwise, but the TPS is lower and the ECM pulses the injectors for a shorter period of time and at a lower 'perceived pressure' to achieve the same power level for the current load.
No matter what the HP of a truck, unless you a standing on it, it only needs to burn a certain amount of fuel to produce a certain amount of horsepower to move move a given load at a given speed.
Additional power only comes into play when accelerating and the rate would therefore be able to be greater with more fuel, and when a load/speed/grade requires that additional power be produced to maintain that speed.
The rest of the time a bombed truck is making the same power as unbombed, and burning approximately the same amount of fuel to do the same work, except at a green light of course
If you have a garden hose, and you put your thumb over the end, and you turn the water on 1/2 turn, then you take your thumb off the end for one second, a pint of water comes out.
Put your thumb back on the hose, now open the tap 1 full turn, the pressure is now higher, now take your thumb off the end for one second, and two pints of water flow out.
The pulse remains the same, only the pressure has increased, more water is delivered.
Now the fooling mode is like this, you are the ECM, you wife is the EZ
, you tell her to open the tap 1/2 turn, she tells you its open 1/2 turn, she actually has it open a full turn, you lift your thumb for 1 second, you believe that only one pint has flowed, you don't now the difference, the flowers die from over watering, you don't care. See?
As for max pressure, when messing with mine around the dealer with is box, the max pressure never exceeded 16,000 without the EZ, but did hit 20,000 with it on '4'. I think that if I were to watch this on a Dyno, or while pulling my trailer, I think that I would see the same trend, but would be able to max the PSI out.
I'm not saying that the pressure isn't increased, I'm saying that it is increased at a rate faster and higher at any given ECM perceived TPS and Boost position but that it does not ever exceed max spec for the pump as it is mechanically limited, and that at any given time unless at 0 throttle, the pressure is higher than it would be otherwise, but the TPS is lower and the ECM pulses the injectors for a shorter period of time and at a lower 'perceived pressure' to achieve the same power level for the current load.
No matter what the HP of a truck, unless you a standing on it, it only needs to burn a certain amount of fuel to produce a certain amount of horsepower to move move a given load at a given speed.
Additional power only comes into play when accelerating and the rate would therefore be able to be greater with more fuel, and when a load/speed/grade requires that additional power be produced to maintain that speed.
The rest of the time a bombed truck is making the same power as unbombed, and burning approximately the same amount of fuel to do the same work, except at a green light of course
Last edited:
Your post was great, I have a couple questions though.
You mentioned defueling if the motor was to reach higher than the max RPMs. Do these engines have a limiter? I have seen 3400 RPM on my HO when shifting at the redline. I have the problem with the engine flare which is supposedly "normal".
I read the explanation of that in the TDR magazine, but it doesn't make sense that they would burn off the extra fuel rather than re-route it to the bypass line. What they have done is cause the engine to waste fuel every time you shift under power.
I also hate having to shift at a lower than optimal RPM to avoid over revs. With a 3200 RPM redline it's not like we have a wide power band to play with and with the 6 speed you just start having fun when it's time to shift.
- Status
Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
Turbo Diesel Register
Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
