Bully Dog downloader skeptics

[DLeno]

Dleno, you make some very good points,But with anything else,you always run the risk,especially when your dealing with a under warranty truck,of the dealer being able to detect some unusual when the ecm is flashed. I worry about daily,but some people aren't as lucky as i am. 90% percent of the employees at my dealership are also my friends,of course i still take it back as much as possible,but with 6in exhaust and numerous gauges,and the fact that im not pulling my injectors everytime keeps you on toes. But there is always a downside to everything,it's part of the game.

Well, I wasn't really trying to make any point -- I was just brainstorming in answer to the question TBrennan raised. The important thing is now wer're not in sensationalism mode and that good information is now flowing . Its ok to post pre-release information to get some exposure. I have no problem with that, and Bullydogs dealers/distributors are well within forum protocol to do that. I just think that you should have identified yourself properly at first. you'll find that is quite accepted here.

 

[realsquash]

Does this "downloader" plug into the OBD-II port or does it plug into the engine sensors?



Andy

 

[DLeno]

OBD port. download once and smile.

 

[realsquash]

OBD port. download once and smile.

I want to hear that from the person who has it installed on his truck...



Andy

 

[AndyMan]

No reason to get testy, it was right there in his post.

ok to answer the download question. It is a handheld module that plugs into the obd port and has a screen that tells you the activity of the module.

 

[realsquash]

My bad, I sorta just forgot that part I guess! This would be the first product that I've heard of that modifies the code in the ECM, a big step in the right direction!



Andy

 

[CJEliassen]

CJEliassen, $30,000 to learn to fly a helicopter, how much for a ride? and can you pick me up before the next Hurricane hits Charleston?



John

If you buy one, I can pick you up anytime

 

[AndyMan]

My bad, I sorta just forgot that part I guess! This would be the first product that I've heard of that modifies the code in the ECM, a big step in the right direction!



Andy

Step in the right direction for SURE. I heard a RUMOR from a good 2nd gen buddy that Marco has conquered the ECM in our 3rd gens. Rumor is that they're b-b-b-b-bad bad bad. Anybody else heard anything about that?



Andy

 

[realsquash]

Step in the right direction for SURE. I heard a RUMOR from a good 2nd gen buddy that Marco has conquered the ECM in our 3rd gens. Rumor is that they're b-b-b-b-bad bad bad. Anybody else heard anything about that?



Andy

Everybody seems to be really tight lipped about it. Nobody wants to say what they've got going on. I wonder why that is?



Andy

 

[hasselbach]

Give the guy a break! Imagine this possibility, he has been visiting for a while now and has gleaned alot of thoughts from the wisdom (and crap) that floats around here and has just finally come up with a peice of info that he thinks we might be intrested in and look at the welcome we give him!!! Jeez guys, just because there aren't facts to back up the story doesn't mean he's trying to screw us!!

I thought women got emotional over small things.....

I think you call the whiners "girlie men"

 

[CJEliassen]

I have never seen guys get so emotional before. Especially over something trivial like how much power does my truck make. LOL

 

[DLeno]

downloaders are nothing new, except of course for the Cummins common rail 3rd gen trucks. they've been available for the 2nd gen 24v trucks for some time and pretty common in the Ford and Chevy markets as well.



The advantage to the downloaders is that you have more direct control over more things, parametrically speaking, and you have zero part count. the only reliabilty exposure you have is the downloaded code itself and the integrity of the downloader appliance itself. After download, I would think (haven't proven this) the risks would include positive tracability and greater exposure of abnormal engine operating parameters during an engine failure snapshot.



The advantage of an external box is that you are making modifications one layer of abstraction away from the native code that runs the engine, so all enhancements are accomplished without touching what the dealer can see.



now if we can just get the downloaders to return to stock condition with no tracability... .

 

[realsquash]

Actually, if done correctly I think that modified ECM tables would help that "traceability" stuff. Instead of seeing screwy, obviously manipulated numbers (such as from an EZ), they would see the real things. Now they would also see higher boost and the like than the stock engine would run, but what they see would be correct (I wonder tho, a 3 bar MAP sensor only reads up to something like 28 psi).



If this device has multiple programs it would be easy to make it also hold and upload the stock program, so I would expect that.



Andy

 

[TBrennan]

Is there any concern about something like the stock ECM keeping track of the mileage and the reflashin causing that to be out of step with the odometer reading?? That could be flagged as a problem, but the Dodge does reflashes also so there is a proper way to do it I'm sure.



The one aspect about a downloader I don't like is the lack of on the fly adjustability. So a big question I have is, is there a "program" which is going to give me great results when I get on it but also be the most fuel efficient when driving normally?

 

[realsquash]

I wouldn't be worried about that stuff at all. The reflash is probably just changing some parameters, nothing more. It's possible that it would do more than that but I doubt the need for any changes to executable code.



I would expect that you could have one program for best mileage during cruising and max power under WOT. That's the beauty of controlling everything within the ECM. Multiple programs would be used to match what other hardware you have on your truck to support it. You could feasably get 200HP/godonlyknowsTQ with just ECM programming but you'll need a phat turbo or two.



Andy

 

[DLeno]

Actually, if done correctly I think that modified ECM tables would help that "traceability" stuff. Instead of seeing screwy, obviously manipulated numbers (such as from an EZ), they would see the real things. Now they would also see higher boost and the like than the stock engine would run, but what they see would be correct (I wonder tho, a 3 bar MAP sensor only reads up to something like 28 psi).



If this device has multiple programs it would be easy to make it also hold and upload the stock program, so I would expect that.



Andy

The new ECM tables themselves would be a dead giveaway in any investigation into the use of after market enhancements -- if the dealer chose to go read them of course (which they would if they were looking for a reason to limit the warranty). It seems to me that many parameters including boost, fuel pressure, timing, and duration, would be visibly allowed to go outside of normal factory limits and that this evidence would be plainly readable even without an engine code. Thats of course if the enhanced tables are in the ECM at investigation time, such as after a catestrophic engine failure and you are unable to re-program the stock tables back in. And if the downloader is unable to avoid leaving a new timestamp that earmarks the flash, then even if you restore the fueling tables you have left clear evidence that they were recently changed. Of course, the local dealer probably doesn't have the ability or the desire to read those tables directly. the might peform a new flash and erase your table but thats certainly a don't care. I think only in the case where a major engine failure was escalated up to STAR would they have the motivation and capability to investigate.



It is my understanding (not proven though) that there is insufficient memory in the ECM to store a historical information (this needs to be corrected if wrong). Thus whatever engine conditions prevalied at the time of failure would be stored. If you have an EZ onboard, acceptable boost pressure and rail pressures are recorded because the box lies to the ECM. If you have (or had and removed) a modified fueling table then the out-of-bounds conditions would be recorded as they really are.



One interesting corner case that should be investigated: if the ECM stores a value that doesn't set a code (because the code thresholds are new) and THEN you restore the stock values, will the restored tables result in a code? I dunno.



the stock MAP sensor must have a greater span than 3 BAR, since TST reports that boost pressures up to 40 psi are reliable from the stock MAP sensor. that would make it almost a 4 BAR device.

 

[realsquash]

Most dealer techs are not knowledgeable enough to figure out what they are looking for except to follow codes and what a flow chart says to do, if that (that goes for gas EFI too). I don't know if a flash history is stored in the ECM but I would guess yes, but with very little detail. This "downloader" device most likely downloads the stock program, modifies the tables it wants to, then sends it back up to the ECM. The ECM doesn't know what was changed and doesn't care. It is legal for service places other than DC to flash these things and I don't know why you would be worried about not being able to revert back to stock, it should work just fine by a dealer and probably this unit, too.



The parameters for setting codes will be different so it's not going to store say a 30psi error unless it has stats such as the highest MAP, RPM, road speed, etc (which I'm pretty sure it does). I don't know what historical data is stored but it's safe to say it's not in the flash memory and it's also going to be easy to clear. Maybe the flash load program in the ECU clears that memory when it's flashed. I wouldn't be too concerned about it.



You sure don't see too many 4 bar map sensors! That would be great if this has one. I wanna see the defueling start at 3300 rpm instead of 2800, too OHHH RAH!



Andy

 

[DLeno]

knowlegable techs: now I'm going to disagree with both you and a previous statement I made (something about knowledge and desire). All it takes is a tech with a scanner to ride in the truck, and all the happy evidence will spill. The ECM will correctly report high boost, high fuel pressure, etc. while the tech wonders in amazement. Also, note that at one point they didn't have the knowlege or desire to detect VP44 solenoid connections on the 2nd gen trucks (for edge comp boxes) either -- but a little communication from the STAR line quickly educated the field techs to look for that stuff and they started denying warranty claims for the pump. Granted, this was in part due to the VP44 itself, but my point is this: all it takes is for DC to wise up to some failures, and to instruct the field on what to do. Yes it wil take some time, but so did the VP44 thing. After DC caught on, then Blue chip came out with a cover that avoided the physical evidence of a pierced wire. Then DC got wise again and became capable of detecting the set screw from the blue chip cover hitting the circuit board. and 'round and 'round she goes...





flash history: minimally, the timestamp, even if nothing else is stored.



ECM doesn't know or care: agreed, because it is now instructed not to care anymore about things it used to. Its the presence of those instructions not to care that could be discovered.



legality: agreed



not being able to return to stock: There are two points of interest: (1) if you blew your turbocharger with such code present, you are more likely to attract the type of attention that would result in a warranty denial and a restricted warranty placed on your VIN. (2) its possible, though not likely, that the presence of the new code would complicate diagnosis if the DC tech follows procedures and standard readings.



storing a 30psi error: The value, without an overboost code, will get stored if the engine fails for some other reason. you could be right about that number getting cleared on a flash update.



and none of this matters if you truly agree to be your own warranty station. Its the guys who want to play a *little* and have dealers who install boxes and such, and want warranty coverage, that will be surprised if they go to the dealer expecting coverage for a failure that occured while the new code was there. Really, if you don't have warranty coverage anyway, who cares if the timestamp is yesterday and there is a 30psi boost pressure recorded with no overboost code. your'e on your own now so it doesn't matter.



4 bar MAP sensor: I'm not claiming any expertise, just noting that guys with the TST box can see boost pressures up to about 40 psi, all from the stock MAP sensor. thats about 3. 7 BAR.



my electronic boost gauge pressure sender is a 14 BAR device

 

[PHeadings]

Humm... . Does the Dyno come with the downloader, just a litter harder to set up? How about those numbers.

 

[lawdog]

Just have to add in here. As for memory... ... My 2000 was checked by techs from DC at the Jeep/Truck Engineering center and 2 techs came up from Cummins in Columbus because I thought the milage should have been better. I watched as they hooked up their lap tops to the truck and BAM... ... So let see here, you have gone faster that 100 mph, you have run X amount of fuel thru the truck, X % of your miles was empty and X % was towing some sort of a load, truck has idles X amount of time and so on... It STORES EVERYTHING... ... ...