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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Burned up my engine today

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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Banks defueling

Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) smoke question on new truck

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ETHs also have a set of higher compression pistons, which is actually a step backward in producing a reliable, strong running diesel. Advancing the timing in an ETH is just really driving around with a grenade under your hood. Couple that with a fueling box and/or injectors and we are asking for it. One can FURTHER compound ALL of these potential problems by using a boost elbow and running a small turbo up and out of it's mapwidth.

EGTs is not the be-all end-all indicator some would believe. It can be useful as a diagnostic tool when used with other gauges and indicators during engine operation.



I checked with Blue Chip and the guy I spoke to agrees with JRodgers. There is NO timing manipulation of the VP-44 while using the FMS.



The Edge Comp's timing feature can be turned off, but this does shut the entire box off, also.



Brian
 
I sorta doubt the compression ratio difference between a SO and HO is all that significant as related to cylinder pressures - a factor perhaps, but not much in the overall scheme of things. Far MORE impact in cylinder pressure is created by the increase in turbo boost when power boxes like the EZ and Comp are installed - more boost = higher cylinder PSI, and at rates much higher than the relatively small difference in CR...



These Cummins are pretty much noted for blowing head gaskets, always have been - dunno if it's simply head design, or less than adequate gasket design.
 
Could be - but I *thought* THIS is what you said:



"ETHs also have a set of higher compression pistons, which is actually a step backward in producing a reliable, strong running diesel. "



Gotta get my eyes checked... ;)
 
So what is the new thought for those of us that have the ETH's. Should we bring the boost back down to where the factory had set them or is 30-psi with RV275's and a DD TTPM still concidered conservative? :rolleyes:
 
cartman



If we leave the timing alone, the ECM injects fuel according to programming and input of the collection of sensors found on an ISB. Cummins engineers program the ECM, but we all know that.



If we advance the timing, (Edge, etc... ) THe fuel is injected before TDC and the gases start to expand downward while the piston is still rising upward. The pressure is astronomical. Rod and main bearings flatten out, headgaskets let go, pistons get holes actually burned into them and sometimes the combustion flame burns down the cylinder wall and splits the piston in two. The only thing holding them together when they are pulled from the block are the rings.



How much it actually is I do not know. I wish I did.



I betcha' Gary knows.
 
You guys are freakin' me out!



I was pondering the #6 temperature question today, and got a little spooked by the temperature issue. If we loose up to 300 degrees between Pre and Post turbo, how much more do you think the #6 will be running after a foot and a half of pipe? I think the answer may scare the best of us, if 1300 is the end of the safe zone.
 
hi throttle, i know what your saying i have seen many destroyed engines with all the broken parts your talking about. i have seen crankshaft snaped like a twig and con rods look like pretzels. and like you said about the bearings if the timeing is advanced to much the top of the bearings will wear paper thin from the pressure trying to push down on the piston but it still has to come up to the top. its amazing what you find when you tear on apart and see all the damage you wonder how it ran as long as it did. but the cylinder pressure must be in the thousands of psi, just would like to know how much pressure is in there. take care:)
 
With all this talk about engine failures and screwed up #6 pistons, I figured I better tell my story too.



My 98. 5 3500 auto with 136,000 miles was towing a 7,000lb travel trailer. At the time the ONLY modification to the truck was a Edge EZ set on the 3rd setting and a boost elbow.



About 1 hour into our trip I started up a small grade and a terrible noise started immediately. It sounded REALLY bad, knocking and vibrating. My tach jumped around, I lifted my foot and the truck died. It made a bad knocking noise when I cranked and it didn't start.



After getting towed home and inspecting the bottom of the engine, it at first appeared my tone wheel had came loose and wedged my crank breaking it on the #6 journal. After closer inspection after the engine was pulled out, I don't think the tone wheel came loose first. ALL of the bolts that hold it was broking off in the crank, they didn't back off. So it appears my crank failed right next the #6 rod. Why? I wasn't doing anything extreme at all. I didn't have that much HP. The piston looked good, other then it may have smacked the head after the crank broke, didn't damage it, just can see where the valves touched in the black.



So I had a crank failure on #6 rod journal while towing 7,000lbs up a very small incline at about 60mph. Boost was less then 20PSI, EGT was under 1K. The only modification was the Edge EZ. Did the Edge EZ cause this with too much timing? I'm still running the Edge, along with DDII injectors on my new engine. It hasn't blown up yet, but it has less then 1K miles on it. Should I be worried? What do you guys think about this?



James
 
I remember the classic old Red Skelton "mean 'lil kid" routine, where he'd get involved in a scarey story, ending with tears and "I think I just SCARED myself"... ;)



All sorts of ugly things CAN happen under unusual circumstances and eventually a FEW under what may even seem normal ones - but IF the EZ and Comp were so damaging to pretty stock trucks, we would be seein a LOT of them alongside the road and on flatbeds getting hauled to the shop - and Edge woulda been outta business LONG ago!



I think we're crossing over the line, and "scareing ourselves"... ;)
 
cartman



Man, If you find out, let me know. I think you're right, the psi must be nuts!



Sticks

Like J. Donnelly said, EGTs are an AVERAGE of the last THREE pistons! Who knows what #6 is up to back there.



JSandusky



I think it was a combination of factors. Too small of an exhaust housing from the factory, boost out of the turbos mapwidth, ALL kinds of backpressure, timing advance, compression ratio... ... ... the usual suspects.
 
Gary



Man, THAT'S what Iv'e been sayin!



THe ETH is a relatively new version of the ISB. What's different about it? Among other things, the COMPRESSION RATIO!



Start goin' one way with the CR and the other way with the timing and bad stuff starts to happen. Even small changes in the opposite directions can have a big effect. Like two trucks in a head on collision each going only 30mph. That's a sixty mph wreck! Compression ratio and timing MUST go together! Change one, and you HAVE to change the other. Why? Because a diesel is a COMPRESSION engine.



Brian
 
I don't know if this is going to make a difference, but I'm pretty sure that Mark Chapple with TST said that his powermax does not advance timing. The guy designed it. This is the same guy that use to take these engines to the limit for Cummins. He must know what he's doing. I think timing is a problem.

Big A
 
Clearing up my post for Cliffman

The Blowby bottle releases oily vapors near the fan the fan in turn plasters this oily solution into the radiator road debris inturn stick to this oily mess restricting airflow thru about 60% of the radiator. Can cause the fan clutch to be inoperative can cause high A\C pressures. Only way to clean it out, is to remove the radiator and use a solvent like Engine Gunk or a hot pressure washer. Merv
 
Concerning the ETH compression ratios, they are higher than the other engines previous to this model. Moderate timing advance should not raise this to the 'breaking' point unless used in conjunction with other power increasers. The added heat saturation of increased fueling and turbos operating out of the map can compound the problem, thus causing you to reach the 'breaking' point sooner.



The heat saturation in #6 is a result of the engine design. I think Banks did a good job of addressing this problem on their sidewinder truck. They did some custom work on the intake runner of the head to increase flow, and cooling of the intake charge air. Notice that on our engines, the intake runner piping to #5 and #6 in enclosed in the head more by the design of the head, therefore it has more chance of being warmed by the surrounding metal and water jacket in the head. Thus #5 and #6 receive warmer charge air than the other cylinders to some degree. We all know that the temp of the intake air affects in cylinder EGT. Now, add the fact that the cooling water in the engine comes in from the front and exits the front, therefore the colling water reaching #5 and #6 is already more heat saturated when it circulates through the back of the block than in the front of the block. All of this makes for some difference in EGT temps if they were measured in the exhaust runner of the head at each cylinder of some value (lets say 100* +/-). The EGT value your gauge says is just an average of whatever is flowing past it in the exhaust manifold or after the turbo, depending on thermocouple location.



Aluminum expands and contracts more than steels and cast irons due to temperature fluctuations. That is why the piston in #6 commonly swells up and galls in the bore. It literally expanded until the skirt starts smearing agains the cylinder wall. In a more extreme case, as with excessive fueling, the top will start actually melting and putting melted Al in the valves and exhaust runners. The new ISBE engines have added enhanced piston cooling j-oilers to better control heat buildup in the pistons. Also the new ISBE head flows better for both intake and exhaust. All combines to provide better heat management and in cylinder EGT control.



If I were to rebuild my engine again, there are some things I would have done differently. Besides the mods I did on this rebuild, I would have taken it a step further and reduced the compression slightly. I had intended to install a . 020 over head gasket to reduce compression slightly. The HG I installed is stock thickness because it is what I got from Haisley, although they do make some taht are . 020 and . 030 over in thickness, but I did not order one at the time because it slipped my mind and I did not want to wait a few days more before getting the truck going again. I had also considered replacing the ETH pistons with some with a slightly lower compression ration, or machineing some off the top of my pistons for the same effect. Of course, this would have prepped me for the baddass cam I want to add at some point in the future. Anyway, lower compression ratio would benefit in the future with advanced timing, propane, and way too much fuel. The combination would help keep it going longer before having to teardown and rebuild again after more abuse.



For you guys out there running stage 2 or 3 injectors, timing boxes, fueling boxes, and large single chargers or twins on ISB engines, I think you are safe. Safe provided you dont try to flog the snot out of the truck while towing, and preferably unplug the timing OR fire ring or o-ring the head. You should have lots of miles of happy driving without problems. Once you start creeping past the 400 HP mark, be prepared to take countermeasures and keep the roadside assistance number handy.
 
JRodgers takes the snap and fades back into the pocket, looking left, then goes DEEP down the right sideline!



TOUCHDOWN!!!!



Iv'e just finished a rebuild on my 01 ETH. Lower compression race piston with a higher nickel and silicon content that are hard anodized. They will get hot but will not grow as much as a stock piston and will not score a cylinder wall. They were pricey, but I can wait another year for my PDR Twins. :( Did the Van Haisley thing with the 12 mm studs and the PDR 24v cam.

These pistons are also shaved and have the four valve pockets cut in them.

This is probably the most exotic 24 valve bottom end in Indiana. I would like to put on a new race version VP-44 and some J. R. Atkins HX-40 HT4B Hybrid twins, with some Mach 5s and dyno once!



That would be cool.



Brian
 
"THe ETH is a relatively new version of the ISB. What's different about it? Among other things, the COMPRESSION RATIO!"



"among OTHER things", YES - as a main or significant factor, I doubt it! Failed gaskets and other internal components aren't limited to the HO engines - they have occurred for YEARS on the lower CR engine as well.



And I suspect the bit offered above concerning clogged radiators due to oily accumulation from the blowby bottle, and the Cummins TSB on the need for lower temp thermostats in harder working trucks to avoid steam pockets at various points in the water jacket probably contribute far more than CR does! Obviously, ANYTHING, even small factors all add up to the bigger picture.



The compression ratio difference between a SO and HO STILL is a pretty small factor in the overall scheme of things, especially as compared to other load increasing factors - my point is that pointing to CR as any sort of BASIC factor in component failures is sort of a stretch - sure it WILL offer a contribution to stress, but not nearly as much as opening up the turbo another 12-14 PSI boost, nearly DOUBLING the effective volume of atmosphere the engine operates under - I'm trying to maintain a perspective of ALL factors increasing stress, rather than focusing on one of the smaller, more trivial ones... As I recall, the CR increase for the HO is less than . 5 a point? And presumably, different ECM programming adjusts timing for that increase?



Dunno what Ford and GM are now using as their CR in their diesel engines, but they used to be up around 22:1 not that many years back - Cummins has steadily been way lower at under 18:1, if they went much lower, the would be down in gasser territory...
 
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