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Bush
- Thread starter Champane Flight
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Thanks, TDR Staff
I would like to ask you guys this question. Was the removal of the Iraqi government system a bad idea? And if so, why?
It boils downs too you bickering about the "reason" which Bush gave. His reason is B. S. , it was his sell to do what amercian policy says has to be done. He sold it wrong, made a big mistake and now is going to spend a long time trying to fix it.
SO my question has dammit to do with WMD's, whether or not those inspections 'worked' or not, but simply is being there in the first place a bad idea.
I think that is the source of the dissension. Those inspections proved that saddam... . as far as the inspectors could tell DID NOT have the WMD's Bush claimed he did have. However, they did prove that saddam kept a huge resource available so that if the case did arise where the sanctions were lifted he could rapidly start the programs and pick up where he left off.
The dual facilities for pharmaceuticals and for biological agents, the research for long range ballistic missles... NOT the missle themselves but research into the development of them. He had a framework established and was simply waiting us out to lift the sanctions.
So removal of this government, in my opinion, was the right thing to do. To establish a democratic system that we have been encouraging the influence of for 50 years was the right thing to do. This is American policy, and it has been for quite some time. So i ask, do you fundamentally disagree with the removal of the government.
The answer to that is very simple, if you do disagree, then the argument in a sense is over.
It doesn't really matter why it happened, how it happened, or where it happened, because IT HAPPENED.
It we don't finish what we've started it will make a mockery of our attempt, will really hamper foreign relations (like they aren't already).
I know this sounds bad, but we are an imperialistic type of nation, and we wish to spread democracy and our form of government. It lies within the very doctrine that defines the american government. It's a **** deal for us, the taxpayer, and the soldiers, and everyone involved, but it something that our way of life dictates to us to do.
I think the whole matter is being blown out of proportion with the WMD arguement, because those really don't matter. We wanted a change of the system, democracy works, we proved that to the Russians. Now we'll try with the arabs, albeit i don't think it will work. It's kind of a sick thing what the country is doing, i can't say that it's "right", but it is what our policy is. The isolationsist policies are long gone, and have to be, for with the idea of let them be over there away from us will not work.
It boils downs too you bickering about the "reason" which Bush gave. His reason is B. S. , it was his sell to do what amercian policy says has to be done. He sold it wrong, made a big mistake and now is going to spend a long time trying to fix it.
SO my question has dammit to do with WMD's, whether or not those inspections 'worked' or not, but simply is being there in the first place a bad idea.
I think that is the source of the dissension. Those inspections proved that saddam... . as far as the inspectors could tell DID NOT have the WMD's Bush claimed he did have. However, they did prove that saddam kept a huge resource available so that if the case did arise where the sanctions were lifted he could rapidly start the programs and pick up where he left off.
The dual facilities for pharmaceuticals and for biological agents, the research for long range ballistic missles... NOT the missle themselves but research into the development of them. He had a framework established and was simply waiting us out to lift the sanctions.
So removal of this government, in my opinion, was the right thing to do. To establish a democratic system that we have been encouraging the influence of for 50 years was the right thing to do. This is American policy, and it has been for quite some time. So i ask, do you fundamentally disagree with the removal of the government.
The answer to that is very simple, if you do disagree, then the argument in a sense is over.
It doesn't really matter why it happened, how it happened, or where it happened, because IT HAPPENED.
It we don't finish what we've started it will make a mockery of our attempt, will really hamper foreign relations (like they aren't already).
I know this sounds bad, but we are an imperialistic type of nation, and we wish to spread democracy and our form of government. It lies within the very doctrine that defines the american government. It's a **** deal for us, the taxpayer, and the soldiers, and everyone involved, but it something that our way of life dictates to us to do.
I think the whole matter is being blown out of proportion with the WMD arguement, because those really don't matter. We wanted a change of the system, democracy works, we proved that to the Russians. Now we'll try with the arabs, albeit i don't think it will work. It's kind of a sick thing what the country is doing, i can't say that it's "right", but it is what our policy is. The isolationsist policies are long gone, and have to be, for with the idea of let them be over there away from us will not work.
My opinion (closer to the center politically than most here, I believe) is that the removal of the govt in Iraq is both good and bad. How we went about it is bad - we've never attacked a country without provocation or good justification before. Our President went about justifying it very badly - either he was wrong or he was lying. Many Iraqis benefited from Saddam being gone, but I believe that the organization that will replace his government will NOT be friendly to the US, and that they will be much more of a threat to us than Saddam ever was. We claim to be exporting free democracy, but what will we do when Islamic extremists run for offices in those free elections and win? Saddam's govt. was bad - but we could account for their actions and control those that were dangerous to the US. How will we ever control the extremists that are moving in now? We can't even stop them from bombing the UN or more and more of our troops.
The thing that is most scary?
We KNOW he had the weapons. they were cataloged years ago.
There is NO record of him getting rid of them.
Where are they now? Across the border in Syria? Did Russia take them? France?
Perhaps coming across our border from Mexico?
Bush never said Saddam was linked to 911, he declared war on terrorists, and nations that harbor them.
If it weren't for Americas enemies here, (Liberals)we could have cleaned out the rest of those dogs by now.
Keep bombing, is the best idea, I think. Eventually, we will get ahead.
We KNOW he had the weapons. they were cataloged years ago.
There is NO record of him getting rid of them.
Where are they now? Across the border in Syria? Did Russia take them? France?
Perhaps coming across our border from Mexico?
Bush never said Saddam was linked to 911, he declared war on terrorists, and nations that harbor them.
If it weren't for Americas enemies here, (Liberals)we could have cleaned out the rest of those dogs by now.
Keep bombing, is the best idea, I think. Eventually, we will get ahead.
At this point, continued bombing is about the only option left to us. At least until the Administration figures out what to do - something that should've been thought out long before the invasion.
I believe the War on Terrorism is just an excuse for this war. There were far more links to Saudi Arabia than Iraq.
As to America's enemies being liberals, keep telling yourself that. At this point you probably believe it. To me, our enemies are extremists, on both ends of the political spectrum. The Conservative nutballs are just as bad as the Liberal ones - maybe worse, since there's more of the conservative nuts in this administration than liberal nuts.
I believe the War on Terrorism is just an excuse for this war. There were far more links to Saudi Arabia than Iraq.
As to America's enemies being liberals, keep telling yourself that. At this point you probably believe it. To me, our enemies are extremists, on both ends of the political spectrum. The Conservative nutballs are just as bad as the Liberal ones - maybe worse, since there's more of the conservative nuts in this administration than liberal nuts.
Mike Ellis
TDR MEMBER
Gentlemen,
Whatever the motivations of the 9/11 terrorists, and whatever Saddam was planning while he played Putt-Putt with Colin Powell and the Dixie Chicks in 2001, arguing about the reasons for the current war in Iraq amounts to little more than hairsplitting.
It's kind of like the city slicker who goes to a small-town bar for a quick drink. He says or does something that, much to his surprise, angers an aggressive cowboy down the bar who comes over and starts beating the living
out of him. "Hold on cowboy, I don't believe in fighting!,"screams slick.
"That's OK," says the cowboy, continuing to pimp-slap the unfortunate city slicker, "I believe strongly enough for both of us. "
The facts are clear - we are at war with the radical elements of the Muslim community, who sponsor and commit the acts of terrorism like 9/11. Since our people are too politically correct and graft-hungry to control our borders tight enough to stop the terrorists from getting in and wreaking havoc, our only hope is to take the battle to their home lands. Iraq is as good a starting point as any. As for the $87 billion, our leaders have apparently decided that over the long haul, a Marshall plan type approach to the Middle East is the only solution. Hence the rebuilding of schools, hospitals, formation of a new government, etc.
I don't think this strategy will work all that well, but at least they are trying to do SOMETHING. Personally, I don't think we have any hope of success unless we kill off ALL of the radical Muslim preachers, and over the long haul strictly control the herd to prevent more from arising and teaching their flock that Allah rewards suicide bombers.
The battle is upon us, time to root hog or die.
Whatever the motivations of the 9/11 terrorists, and whatever Saddam was planning while he played Putt-Putt with Colin Powell and the Dixie Chicks in 2001, arguing about the reasons for the current war in Iraq amounts to little more than hairsplitting.
It's kind of like the city slicker who goes to a small-town bar for a quick drink. He says or does something that, much to his surprise, angers an aggressive cowboy down the bar who comes over and starts beating the living
out of him. "Hold on cowboy, I don't believe in fighting!,"screams slick. "That's OK," says the cowboy, continuing to pimp-slap the unfortunate city slicker, "I believe strongly enough for both of us. "
The facts are clear - we are at war with the radical elements of the Muslim community, who sponsor and commit the acts of terrorism like 9/11. Since our people are too politically correct and graft-hungry to control our borders tight enough to stop the terrorists from getting in and wreaking havoc, our only hope is to take the battle to their home lands. Iraq is as good a starting point as any. As for the $87 billion, our leaders have apparently decided that over the long haul, a Marshall plan type approach to the Middle East is the only solution. Hence the rebuilding of schools, hospitals, formation of a new government, etc.
I don't think this strategy will work all that well, but at least they are trying to do SOMETHING. Personally, I don't think we have any hope of success unless we kill off ALL of the radical Muslim preachers, and over the long haul strictly control the herd to prevent more from arising and teaching their flock that Allah rewards suicide bombers.
The battle is upon us, time to root hog or die.
The problem is, Iraq WASN'T a good place to start. The Muslim extremists generally stayed out of Iraq because Saddam's gestapo kept a good eye on them. Indonesia, the Phillipines, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Somalia - there's a lot of countries with a lot more ties to Muslim extremists than Iraq had.
Korea, China, Russia, France, Canada, Mexico, South America etc, etc, etc.
May as well sort em all out right now, get started at the right place.
Thanks for the short list!!
Do I hear an air raid siren?
Maybe the plan is to get them all in one place, and take 'em all out in one shot.
Jim
Liberals answer to a hornet's nest ( terrorists ) out in the yard is to hide in the house, run to the car (Volvo) and live in fear of the hornets.
Conservatives answer to a hornet's nest (terrorists) out in the yard is to send the neighbor's kids (their own kids are much to valuable) out to the nest with baseball bats to beat the ***** out them and teach the hornets how to be civil. Once the kids have killed all the bad hornets, (terrorists) the good hornets (Iragi citizens) can live happily and peacefully side by side with the good American family.
I can't picture either plan working. But if we keep buying baseball bats and sending in more kids, it'll eventually change the hornets to butterflies. Right?
Conservatives answer to a hornet's nest (terrorists) out in the yard is to send the neighbor's kids (their own kids are much to valuable) out to the nest with baseball bats to beat the ***** out them and teach the hornets how to be civil. Once the kids have killed all the bad hornets, (terrorists) the good hornets (Iragi citizens) can live happily and peacefully side by side with the good American family.
I can't picture either plan working. But if we keep buying baseball bats and sending in more kids, it'll eventually change the hornets to butterflies. Right?
No, but maybe the other hornets will quit stinging, becuase they don't want the **** beat out of them.
That's the point I'm trying to make. You can't reason with hornets. They keep stinging until death. Those people are a whole different ball game. We as a nation will never change or stabilize that region of the world. They've been at war with each other since the beginning of religion and they'll be at war until they annihilate themselves. We're sticking our nose in the middle of total chaos. A dictator is all they understand and can reason with. A free society will never work with them. They have no self control.
I'm with Steve!
NUKE THEM.
End game.
We are the great satan anyway, no sense in dissapointing them.
NUKE THEM.
End game.
We are the great satan anyway, no sense in dissapointing them.
Mike Ellis
TDR MEMBER
I would love to see the "Marshall plan" approach work for the Iraqis, but I am not very optimistic. Under the Shah, the Iranians had a fairly Westernized society, and at one point even Lebanon was relatively advanced. In the 70's they still called Beirut "The Paris of the Middle East". But both of those nations became embroiled in religious strife, the fundamentalist Muslims (remember the Ayatollah?) took over Iran and Muslim vs. Christian violence destabilized Lebanon so bad in the late 70s / early 80's that Israel eventually tired of Katyusha rocket attacks and took over the south in 1982. This led to a handy bully pulpit for the Muslim radicals to scream for the faithful to attack the infidel Jews and Christians, and things have been circling the toilet bowl ever since.
My point? Semi-Westernized societies did nothing to forestall the spread of fanatic Muslim ideology from destabilizing both of those nations. Will it work any better in Iraq? I am skeptical.
There is a common thread in all of the events we have seen to date, from 1948 on up. Namely, the Muslims refuse to accept the existence of Israel in their midst, and because of USA support for Israel, we have become the Great Satan and are considered their mortal enemy. As long as the fanatic imams / clerics / whatever you call them over there are allowed to keep poisoning fresh generations of Arab youth against the USA and Israel, this situation WILL NEVER BE RESOLVED.
Only answer is to target the clerics that are causing the problem. If we aren't willing to do it, we will keep soaking the sands with blood for years (perhaps generations) to come.
Looking at Steve's analogy, what we are ACTUALLY doing in Iraq right now is rushing in and trying to patch up the hornets' nest and be friendly with them, occasionally swatting frantically at the ones that dare to come back by and sting. If, on the other hand, we were to stop the hornets from reproducing and deal harshly with any remaining attackers, we might have a chance at stopping their spread and development of new nests.
Like dealing with fire ants - gotta kill the queen, or the infestation is unstoppable.
My point? Semi-Westernized societies did nothing to forestall the spread of fanatic Muslim ideology from destabilizing both of those nations. Will it work any better in Iraq? I am skeptical.
There is a common thread in all of the events we have seen to date, from 1948 on up. Namely, the Muslims refuse to accept the existence of Israel in their midst, and because of USA support for Israel, we have become the Great Satan and are considered their mortal enemy. As long as the fanatic imams / clerics / whatever you call them over there are allowed to keep poisoning fresh generations of Arab youth against the USA and Israel, this situation WILL NEVER BE RESOLVED.
Only answer is to target the clerics that are causing the problem. If we aren't willing to do it, we will keep soaking the sands with blood for years (perhaps generations) to come.
Looking at Steve's analogy, what we are ACTUALLY doing in Iraq right now is rushing in and trying to patch up the hornets' nest and be friendly with them, occasionally swatting frantically at the ones that dare to come back by and sting. If, on the other hand, we were to stop the hornets from reproducing and deal harshly with any remaining attackers, we might have a chance at stopping their spread and development of new nests.
Like dealing with fire ants - gotta kill the queen, or the infestation is unstoppable.
A lot of
I have heard a lot of ideas and opinions here, some good and some bad. I have even heard a sensible side from the right sided argument.
But, think about it, if everyone knew where the hornets nest is, wouldn't you just keep your distance? Sooner or later winter will come and you can dispose of it in a safe manner. When is winter? When we figure out that we do not fight a guerilla war in a conventional manner. Sometimes, just doing "something" will get you in more trouble than thinking about the situation and then acting.
Bushs move on Iraq may not have been soley political, but, it will be very profitable for him and Cheney. Not enough thought put into it though.
When and if we ever get out of Iraq and the middle east (not in my lifetime) we really should rethink our entire foriegn policy! We are really no good at it... ... .
I have heard a lot of ideas and opinions here, some good and some bad. I have even heard a sensible side from the right sided argument.
But, think about it, if everyone knew where the hornets nest is, wouldn't you just keep your distance? Sooner or later winter will come and you can dispose of it in a safe manner. When is winter? When we figure out that we do not fight a guerilla war in a conventional manner. Sometimes, just doing "something" will get you in more trouble than thinking about the situation and then acting.
Bushs move on Iraq may not have been soley political, but, it will be very profitable for him and Cheney. Not enough thought put into it though.
When and if we ever get out of Iraq and the middle east (not in my lifetime) we really should rethink our entire foriegn policy! We are really no good at it... ... .
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
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FREE!
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Renew
Subscribe
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
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Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
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