Bypass filter...return location?

[brista]

Yes and they charge you taxes if in your state...



While the billet cap is nice, the stant cap is slightly cheaper...



steved

Yes... picked up a stant cap already but had no easy access to the amsoil swivel fitting. No problem I thought, grabbed a live swivel fitting from the farm supply store and a JIC elbow but... the assembly is too tall for the hood to close. So I need to order the amsoil swivel fitting and I guess I'll just get the whole cap.

 

[redram]

IMO, a filter will not affect the oil analysis results because it is in PPM... it would affect the particle size analysis...



steved

Steved, and you're basing this opinion on having taken multiple samples from various points in a lube system? I have - and it makes a difference.



Will it make a bag of beans differnce on the 5. 9L - probably not but that doesn't mean we should accept it as being the right way to sample.



Taking a sample from the outlet of the bypass would miss any mechanical issues in the engine as the wear particles would / should be trapped in the filter. Now if the only goal in taking a sample is to check the useful life of the oil, then this is an acceptable location. If you are using the used oil smaple to catch a problem when it is still a small problem, this location will definitely mask any wear results and small minor changes in the PPM of iron, copper, lead, tin, chrome, etc should be viewed with caution.



If sampling from the output of the bearings, then a trend is easier to catch.

That's why on larger engines a dedicated sampling port from the main gunrail is the preferred location, From the oil sump next and from the filter last.



Sorry, I just get frustrated by the 'all knowing' acceptance given some certain posters when the information that is posted is not always correct.

 

[Cal Brewin]

It appears that the Blackstone contact was talking about the standard spin-on OEM type oil filter - which is a true statement in that the OEM style spin-on filters are typically rated to trap particles in the 15-25 micron at 50% efficiency and vary from 25-40 micron particle size when they get to 98-99% efficiency.

However, a good bypass filter should filter down to 0. 5 -3. 0 micron size particles.



The lab, uses either a spectrographic oil analysis machine or possibly an ICP machine, which can only see particles up to 10 micron or smaller. So you can see the confusion in the answer from Blackstone - taking a sample after the standard oil filter would NOT effect the used oil results but taking one after the bypass filter (outlet flow) could definitely have an effect on the particles - I think if you contact the gent at Blackstone and confirm the use of a bypass oil filter that his answer will change if he understands oil filtration.

I can see how my using Blackstones response w/o my question to them could be confusing, as they only refer to the sample point as after filter. So I will post their reply including my original ? I was reasonably sure they knew what a Frantz bypass filter was, hopefully they understood before replying to my eMail.



Tom.





Hi Tom,



It won't make much of a difference where you take the sample, because the

wear metals that we look at are too small to be removed with the filter.

What you will see a difference in, taking the sample post-filter, is the

level of insolubles--they should be low, since the filter will have removed

most of the solids, if it's doing its job. In fact that's a good way to see

how good a job the filter is doing, so if I were you, that's where I'd do

it.



Hope this helps!



Kristin Huff



----- Original Message -----

From: "Tom Ferrante (by way of Blackstone Laboratories

<bstone@blackstone-labs.com>)" <lagerman77-games@yahoo.com>

To: <khuff@blackstone-labs.com>

Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 7:45 AM

Subject: Question from Website





>

> Name = Tom Ferrante

> Address =

> City = Oakley

> State = CA

> Zip = 94561

> Country = USA

> Email =

> HearAboutUs = Current Customer

> Comments = Hello, I have recently installed a Frantz bypass filter on my

> '06 Dodge 2500 w/Cummins. Would my sample be OK if I take it @ the oil

> return (after filter)? Or should the sample be from the intake side of the

> Frantz (pre filter)? I ask because if I can get a representable sample

> post-Frantz, it is very easy to obtain, as my return is to the oil filler

> cap. But if a more representable sample is from pre-Frantz, I could add a

> valve in-line to accomplish it.

>

> I thank you in advance for your opinions. Tom.

 

[steved]

Steved, and you're basing this opinion on having taken multiple samples from various points in a lube system? I have - and it makes a difference.



Will it make a bag of beans differnce on the 5. 9L - probably not but that doesn't mean we should accept it as being the right way to sample.



Taking a sample from the outlet of the bypass would miss any mechanical issues in the engine as the wear particles would / should be trapped in the filter. Now if the only goal in taking a sample is to check the useful life of the oil, then this is an acceptable location. If you are using the used oil smaple to catch a problem when it is still a small problem, this location will definitely mask any wear results and small minor changes in the PPM of iron, copper, lead, tin, chrome, etc should be viewed with caution.



If sampling from the output of the bearings, then a trend is easier to catch.

That's why on larger engines a dedicated sampling port from the main gunrail is the preferred location, From the oil sump next and from the filter last.



Sorry, I just get frustrated by the 'all knowing' acceptance given some certain posters when the information that is posted is not always correct.

If you think a simple filter capable of only catching particles down to 2 micron is going to affect an analysis in the PARTS PER MILLION, then you are definately need to research analytical equipment. The units we are talking about would NOT be able to be "cleaned" by a typical bypass filter.



Explain to me again how a typical bypass filter changes the CHEMICAL matrix of a sample? I agree it might change the particle size analysis, but not the chemical.



steved

 

[redram]

If you think a simple filter capable of only catching particles down to 2 micron is going to affect an analysis in the PARTS PER MILLION, then you are definately need to research analytical equipment. The units we are talking about would NOT be able to be "cleaned" by a typical bypass filter.



Explain to me again how a typical bypass filter changes the CHEMICAL matrix of a sample? I agree it might change the particle size analysis, but not the chemical.



steved

You're correct Steved, if all you are looking to garner from a used oil analysis is the zinc, phosphorus, calcium, molybdenum, magnesium, boron type additives found in motor oils - a bypass filter will NOT filter these out as they are dissolved chemicals in a liquid.

However, if you are using the used oil analysis to trend wear particles such as iron, lead, copper, tin, aluminum, chromium, etc - a good bypass filter WILL filter these particles out of the oil stream so sampling from the output of the bypass filter will 'mask' any wear particles that are potentially being generated in the engine. I believe and endorse the use of bypass filters - but recommendations for sampling procedures are being given inaccurately on this site.



Let's look at a simple hydraulic system with a full flow filter in the pickup to the pump and a side stream filter (a bypass filter setup) that filters 5-10% of the oil and dumps it back into the main reservoir. By what you are saying, there should be no difference in the oil sample regardless of where you sample the oil.

Well, taking samples from the output of the hyd pump, the output of the control valves, the output of the hyd cylinders, from the oil reservoir, and from the output of the bypass filter, you are isolating sections of the hydraulic system and you can determine if the system is operating correctly. It would also show if there are any external sources of contamination as well as internal sources of contamination.

If you only have the option of taking one sample point, the output of the bypass filter is the least informative as to the wear within the system.

It would only show the 'filtered oil' status.



The engine is similar. Sampling before the full flow filter will give you an indication of what is coming out of the oil pump, sampling after the full flow oil filter tells you what is being fed to the bearings and engine through the oil cooler, sampling after the oil cooler would catch a cooler leak for example, sampling out of the oil pan gives you an idea of what is coming out of the bearings and cylinders and coolers coming back to the pan and before the pickup screen to the pump but would not tell you specifically where these wear particles or contamination was occuring in the engine. (coolant could be coming from the cylinder head for example). Sampling only from the output of the bypass oil filter is basically verifying that your bypass filter is working - as the wear particles should be virtually zero in any good functional system. Wayne is correct, trend oil analysis depends on consistency on how and where you draw the oil sample and using the same lab. It takes three data points from the same piece of equipment (oil samples) to establish a trend line of the wear particles and oil properties in a used oil sample. It is possible to infer results from one or two data points, but can be misleading.



So if you are interested in the trend analysis of your 'engine wear ' as opposed to how 'efficiently the bypass filter is working', a sample from the pressurized feed going into the bypass filter is prefered over the output of that same filter.



Just trying to help here - PM me if you ahve additional questions.

 

[GECCO]

I liked the idea of returning the clean oil into the valvetrain galley but the gadgets that install in the filler caps looked pretty cheesey to me. I simply took the valve cover off, drilled and tapped a hole in it and ran the return line that way. Looks very clean, almost like the factory did it.

I got a request for a picture of this setup and sent some off, I figured I would also post them here in case anyone wanted to see... enjoy!



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