Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) C-Ringing, Fire-Ringing, and O-Ringing

[sparks57]

I've done a search and haven't come up with a whole lot of info on this subject, but it has been covered lightly many times.



It seems as thought o-ringing is the most popular, o-ringing the head in particular. I believe this may be because it's the cheapest?



So then what is Fire Ringing and C-Ringing?



Is any one of the methods better in certain conditions? Does anyone know of pictures of the different styles?



So what's the scoop?

 

[ProMac1K]

I'm in the same boat as you dood! Also with the intercooler boots in your other thread.



I'm under the impression that o-ringing was the first concept, and then fire-ringing, which I believe is the same as c-ringing. A little clarification on that, anyone??? O-ringing involves putting a ring in the head or block that lines up with the ring on the head gasket, which basically allows for a better seal. Fire-ringing involves putting a possibly larger ring in the head or block, that would line up with the ring on the headgasket, in place of the ring in the gasket. Basically the compression ring in the gasket would be out of the picture in this case.



These are just some things off the top of my head that I found when I did my search on the subject yesterday. Maybe try a few different keywords for your search. I can't for sure tell you the general boost limits with each but I remember finding them while doing the search. I think fire-ringing is generally the step up in most peoples minds, with o-ringing being for lower boost/hp and fire-ringing for higher boost/hp. Of course either one would work for whatever hp or boost, i'm just summing up what I read. For more info on them I would talk to Jim Fulmer, Piers, ADT, MassDiesel, and Snow Man or Snowracer (can't remember which one).



Good luck!

 

[Jim Fulmer]

On the fire ring deal they are good for the guys that make huge boost numbers like Maddog or the pullers but as I hear (take this with a grain) that it is not the end all and they crack (rings) and do still blow a head gaskets but look at were there at, if I were building something over 100 psi or close I would use them.



O-Ring..... mine has the most simple setup there is, single O-Ring in the head (because you can ship it) and 12mm studs, from there you can go to an O-Ring in the block or head and block with a copper gasket but for guys like me that might be too much maintenance as I drive mine allot and to events, I'm going to knock on wood and say that if a guys is making less than 80 psi and no N2O that it would be fine with a little maintenance (occational re-torque) using a single O-ring, there was without a doubt some good machine work done to mine.



Jim

 

[JGK]

So, Jim, one clarification: If you're going to stay under 80 lbs boost (50 or 60 lbs range, for instance) are you saying a single O-ring AND a copper head gasket are the way to go (with studs) or the O-ring and stock gasket (with studs)? That seems to be the main confusion I have. If you O-ring the head, do you also do the copper gasket or is that purely optional? In all cases, I'd do the 12mm studs as well.



Thanks,

-Jay

 

[Jetpilot]

JGK,



I would go with the studs, O-ring in the head or block, and a stock gasket.



Doug

 

[Snow man]

This is just my opinion,but for a street driven truck that you plan to get some miles out of, i feel that an o ring is the best choice,and you should be keeping your boost under 70psi,for many reasons. Above 70psi the engine life,and head gasket integrity go down hill quickly,and blowby starts to get real bad,even on an engine that is in good shape,they just werent meant to run under that much pressure every day. The o ring is simple,and when done correctly it is reliable. The most important part is the prepping,machine work,and proper proceedures being followed. Whenever you go above 40psi the details become very important. IMO any imperfection and the hot gases will find it and act like a torch burning right thru it. Both surfaces must be perfect if any head gasket is to live above 40psi,the o rings need to be cut right,and to the proper depth,and the rings themselves need to be installed in the grooves properly. If any of these things aren't perfect,it will blow if you make big boost numbers. It took me 7 months ,2 engines,5 blown gaskets/fire rings,3 heads,and the dollar number is staggering to get my truck relaible with my twins,and im only in the 65psi range. I drive it every day,and have a lot of miles on my twins. Since i finally got the truck fixed right Late july i have put over 7000 hard miles on it. My advice is go with a good vendor,who has a lot of experience in doing street driven twinned trucks. Like Jim,I agree that fire rings have there place,but the guys running them are willing to live with the possible problems in exchange for the huge bost numbers they will hold with bigger studds. I tired the fire rings,and i didnt properly cut the grooves,i should have brought it to Haisley ,Mass diesel or ADT,but the truck was down ,and with snow in the forcast there was no time to do that,it cost me a lot of money in the end. If the work was done right,i may have had no problems,but i still knwo that i can go to a fire ring from where im at now, but you can never go back to an o ring once your fire ringed.

On other thing if you plan on running over 60psi of boost plan on blowing an intercooler,if your lucky you'll get a yr out of it,mine blew less than 2 months after the twins were put on.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Sorry for the confusion, I'd do just what Doug says... ... . it's just been proven too much, I do push it(80 psi,Methanol,Timing) way beyond were Piers says it should be though!



Jim

 

[Dockboy]

I'll throw in my experience I know it's with a different motor, but it's still real world experience and I HAVE PICTURES



When I recently rebuilt my motor, I wanted to do something with the heads/gaskets that would be good down the road. Up until then I was running stock gaskets with studs. It was difficult finding real world experience because there are very few people with PSD's at, or above, the HP levels I am, but after alot of research and discussions with many people(you guy's included), this is the conclusions I came to. Again, this is on a Powerstroke, but I believe the same would/could apply to the Cummins



I found more bad stories than good about plain coppers or coppers with o-rings. It seems on the PSD at least, the coppers are very hard to get sealed.



Also the same with c-rings. Expensive, and more failing than staying sealed



I ended up going with firerings with the work done by Wide Open Performance in Utah. They have a PSD holding 70+ lbs with them with good results. They have a receiver groove machined in the head only, no block work. A stock gasket is used with the compression ring waterjetted out. The firering then fits in the gasket and mates to the receiver groove. Studs are used torqued to 125 ft/lbs.



My truck is putting down 660+ RWHP at the moument with an itty bitty single pushing 50+ lbs of boost. Soon I will have a new turbo setup and should be in the 70 lb. range. I drive it every day and have quite a few passes down the track with it, and they seem to be holding just fine



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[sparks57]

Excellent info!



That clarified a lot of things for me.

 

[driverno8]

When I had my motor built we fire ringed it. I still plan on twins some day. And was told fire rings will hold 100+psi. Plus we did 14mm head studs.

 

[ProMac1K]

Good writeup and pictures Greg!



Thanks!

 

[Dockboy]

No problem and thanks



Greg