Can dealer tell if you had a chip?

[wlowe]

I believe the question in the original post was this:



"I'd heard that the dealer can tell on the '03's from the computer the max boost, fueling, etc. Does anyone have experience with this on the '03's or even older trucks?"



How about giving the man a respectful answer without all the Holier than thou crap. Apparently there are some here that think they are on such a high moral plain that the only way to talk to others is down. Lighten up!



Bill

 

[KBennett]

I can see everyone's point but....

The post was asking a question that I think we all read into and maybe some of us responded a little harshly. However, I do agree with the fact that if you modified the engine in the truck and the engine broke why should DC pay for it? If you do the crime, you do the time and if the dealer or rep does a little detective work such as looking for a broken seal on a connector or computer cover, looking for a code set by the computer, or wiring that looks out of place from factory fresh then you are busted unless you can prove otherwise.



I don't want to hijack this thread but let's look at the bottom line that automakers have to deal with that actually hurts the quality of our vehicle because of cost cutting. Lawsuits, Insurance, Marketing, etc. Now another individual wants to add free repairs to the list even when he made his own modifications? The repair is not free. It gets put back into the cost of doing business and gets passed on to the rest of us. In my opinion I think the reason the engine broke was because of the mod and I don't agree with trying to hide the fact.



I also know that people are not falling for any Toyota or Honda "hype". The American automakers screwed themselves by not turning out a decent product for many years. This is my first "American" (Mexican) made truck in 10 years. The previous were all Japanese and only one of them had a bad design issue (broken exhaust manifold bolts on a Nissan V6) that the dealer and I split the cost of repair on even though the warranty was up. I had a Pontiac Grand Am that made me swear that I would never own another American made or designed vehicle. But I bought the Dodge because of the Cummins and so far the quality of the truck is as good as my last Toyota (made in Canada). Time will tell.



My truck is stock and probably will remain that way except for a different muffler and air filter until it is out of warranty. If either should cause a failure and Dodge can prove to me that it was my fault I will take the blame.

 

[DLeno]

as I say, the more attention you attract, and the more formal or legal you get, the more "by the book" your experience will be. If you want the dealer on your side for the gray areas, you'll treat him accordingly.



No dealer will engage in "conspiring" DC into paying for anything likely caused by modification that was substantial, no individual can ethically attempt to persuade the dealer to do so, and no one I know of is advocating such.



ethics goes both ways. In my opinion, for DC to produce a front end trac bar system who's design is known to wear out of spec several times more often than the warranty coverage implies, when the truck is used as advertized and within all weight limits, is a miserable failure to be a responsible manufacturer.

 

[DPKetchum]

Back to the original question. I think parameters can be pulled from the ecu/ecm etc and the graph can show id parameters are in or out of specs. Same as some troubleshooting. Usually no one goes to that kind of trouble. What if it was towing a heavy load and going down hill in a low gear it was pushed way past redline etc and it blew that way. sometimes all there can be is speculation.

 

[DLeno]

DPKetchum is right. boost is one such signature and would, it seems to me, show up. The Edge EZ for the 02s causes the ECM to record a constant 9 psi boost so that the ECM will not de-fuel. So anyone who was passionate about looking for a box signature would notice a constant 9 psi boost.



BTW, am I hallucinating or didn't I see a post earlier that isn't visible anymore in this thread?

 

[curatchko]

The ECM will not see boost issues. These boxes come with Boost foolers in them so the ECM will not see it.....



If the ECM does see overboost it will defuel... .



Am I missing something? There should be no records of over boost in the computer.

 

[Parshal]

Originally posted by curatchko

The ECM will not see boost issues. These boxes come with Boost foolers in them so the ECM will not see it.....



If the ECM does see overboost it will defuel... .



Am I missing something? There should be no records of over boost in the computer.

I've set an overboost code by leaving my boost elbow on and taking the EZ off. The truck did not defuel. My friend can see and clear codes on the ECM but can't do either for the PCM.



I talked to Cummins a while back about another question (don't remember exactly) but they told me that they (Cummins) can not read the codes in the PCM starting with the '03's. They provide the engines to Dodge and they modify them. I guess my question was/is does anyone have any more details regarding that?

 

[badams1]

J.C. Whitney item

I saw a product recently in the J. C. Whitney cataloge that if installed can tell parents how their kid drove the family car saterday night. It down loads speed aceleration numbers and and a few other tattle tale things and is the real nightmare that we were all glad that our parents did not have way back when. Human nature is in having a little fun in most of us and if anybody is 100% without this sin let him/her come forward. We have been waiting 2000 years for you and now we can all be judged. This technology exists in the market place for a very modest price so I would bet a Big Mack that it is in the late modle trucks too.

 

[DPelletier]

I agree that some of the replies have been too harsh. One of the things I like most about the TDR is that USUALLY there are very few personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion and some of my favorite people on this site are the ones who can make thier point without being overly antagonistic. As far as the warranty thing goes, for the record, I agree that if you modify your engine and you have a problem that you shouldn't expect warranty coverage. I just bought a new truck and one of the main reasons I did so was that the 60,000 km bumper to bumper warranty had expired on my '01. I intend to leave my truck BONE stock, including filters, exh, etc. and have my dealer perform all the scheduled servicing, until after the warranty period expires. God help them if I get denied warranty for ANY reason. Where there becomes a problem is when a dealer denies warranty for something unrelated (ie. gauges, exh, etc. ) These types of dealers cause people to be less than forthcoming. There are good dealers and bad dealers and good customers and bad customers! The problem is on both sides of the fence IMHO.



Dave



ps. I apologize for being slightly off-topic

 

[Steve M]

I could tell what my daughter was doing to my Mustang when she was late coming home from school one day. Said she was at a friend's house with a flat tire that happened at 30mph halfway home. When I got there and saw the feathered front tires and the literally melted tread on the blown back tire, she had driven my Mustang for the last time. She finally confessed that she was on the interstate 140 miles from home with the speedo buried instead of in school. She never did tell me how she got the car to her friend's house.

Did I ever do any such thing? Of course I did. I'm not without sin by a long shot. But it was at my expense, not my dad's. If I decide to break the rules, bomb my truck and break it, it'll be at my expense. I don't expect DC to pay for my hot-rodding any more than I would expect my dad to.

I don't see anyone claiming to be perfect or without sin. But we do need to take responsibility for our actions.

 

[KBennett]

Very well said Steve M.

 

[DPKetchum]

The technology with G. M. (Cadillac)has been THERE! We had cars come in with check engine lights on and the tech come up and asked to ask the customer why THEY put it in NEUTRAL AT 37 mph etc. Said its all recorded in the Ecm. That was in 1990!the ecm recorded that and more back then. The MPG feature etc was being used by G. M. on Cadillac back in 1988. But the point being that the capability was available back then.

 

[DLeno]

The ECM will not see boost issues. These boxes come with Boost foolers in them so the ECM will not see it.....

I think you are missing something. If the ECM didn't see a boost level at all it would set a code. the way in which the boost foolers work is to fool the ECM into thinking that boost is within its happy band, when in reality is might not be. They actually take the place of the MAP sensor -- so that the ECM reads bogus information and stays happy. the boost fooler itself is pretty dumb, holding the MAP sensor output to some constant value that is within the ECM's happy band . Edge told me 9 psi.

If the ECM does see overboost it will defuel... .

Well, yes, but the point is that the fueling boxes fool the ECM so that it will never see the overboost condition. were it not for boost fooling, the ECM would defuel and try to reduce boost, and if (because the fueling box re-maps fueling instructions) that is not succesful, then the ECM sets an overboost code.



The way I understand it, boost levels are absolutely recorded in the ECM and can be retrieved as historical information. that way, they can tell if a wastegate fails. imagine what a warranty administrator would say if he saw a constant 9 psi of boost!

 

[badams1]

J.C. whitney guy sining again

Dang! I think I'll just start tithing to the great DC in the sky to keep those blessings flowing. You are right as right can be! Do you feel better now? Excuse me while I get back up on this whipping post for more spanking that I most cetainly deserve for being born unto sin. Now, it is just the straight and narrow for me and my Cummins diesel HO. All I ment to point out is that they for sure can tell it if they look for it so ya'll be good now ya hear. A tud a loo.

 

[KBennett]

Here is my theory....

I don't think the computer actually takes "historical" data at a pre-determined time base (minutes, seconds, etc. ) but does it off of an event such as "speedometer overspeed fault" or maybe in this case "overboost limit reached". When these conditions occur the system probably records some data such as RPM, boost, engine temp, injector presure, etc.



If the tech can pull up this history and sees that the engine was at 3800 RPM (creating a fault condition that may not even make the check engine light go on) and that because the computer was trying to de-fuel (to prevent a broken rod) based on a stored number but couldn't because a "chip or box" was installed could have set off a red flag in his mind.



This is my theory. I am not a diesel mechanic but I program computers including microcontrollers that are used in automotive applications. Computers are extremely repeatable. The devices that feed them the information may not be accurate or there may be a software glitch but these would be consistent errors that could be found.

 

[Parshal]

Re: Here is my theory....

KBennett, that's been my theory, too. I was posting here to see if anyone could validate it. I'm curious to know if anyone here can read the PCM and see what's stored in that. There's no reason in the world why they wouldn't record peak boost (the boost elbow would not compensate for that and it would show up, I would guess), peak rail pressure, etc. It would be simple enough to store.

 

[Crunch]

No EDR in our trucks

Originally posted by DPKetchum

The technology with G. M. (Cadillac)has been THERE! We had cars come in with check engine lights on and the tech come up and asked to ask the customer why THEY put it in NEUTRAL AT 37 mph etc. Said its all recorded in the Ecm. That was in 1990!the ecm recorded that and more back then. The MPG feature etc was being used by G. M. on Cadillac back in 1988. But the point being that the capability was available back then.

Being a privacy minded guy I did a lot of research on black boxes and EDRs (Event Data Recorders). GM is real big into them, Ford is moving in that direction but I found nothing in my research to indicate DC was doing it to us. My concern was more along the lines of insurance companies and law enforcement using the data. Your insurance company can't force you to give up the data, but if they buy your totalled truck from you and find something you will be paying them back. Law enforcement can get it with a warrant.



But the same reasoning applies to dealers and warranty work, too. If a dealer can graph out your driving habits they have one more weapon to use against you. If they find you regularly drive at 100MPH or ride the brake excessively I have no doubt they would kill your warranty for a cracked disc or a part ruined from overheating.



For what it's worth, I had a long talk with a service tech at my dealer (his girlfriend was sitting in his new 3500 Dually as it idled for 90 minutes with the AC on) about performance boxes. He told me he had one in his truck, and told me that "all we ask is that you take it out before you bring it in. We don't look for them, but if we see it there is nothing we can do about it and we would have to deny warranty coverage. " (slightly paraphrased)



I don't think they could be any fairer than that.

 

[DPKetchum]

Thats what I meant about recording parameters. On Cadillac the faults and HIGHS and LOWS outside of normal parameters would show up like a sore. A car could skip once every 300 miles and the parameters can be downloaded to G. M. and in a day or so you get a phone call from a engineer and he goes over what he found in what system voltage wise or fuel loss or misfire and at what rpm/temp etc. Some stuff on the new ones(last few years)Download throught the ac controler and can be read/graph done at dealer level now. takes a smart tech to figure out how to properly use the systems.

 

[Prairie Dog]

As I understand it the GM "data recorders" only have data from the last 30 or 60 minutes (or something like that) of operating time. I would think the Dodge would be the same - it certainly doesn't keep a running history of all parameters. If it did it would have to have an incredible amount of memory and that just wouldn't make economic sense. The computer keeps track of unusual events, I doubt it does more than that.

 

[Parshal]

I would think it would be fairly easy for it to keep only the highs and lows and overwrite them each time they are exceeded. That would not take too much memory or programming.