Can Diesel Fuel Additives prevent injectors from failing?

[ASpathias]

All of a sudden I am interested in Diesel Fuel additives with all the recent threads about injectors filling the crankcase with diesel at what seems like a random amount of mileage when this occurs. What type/brand of additive would help prevent this problem if, lets say it's a friction issue. What type of warning system could be installed to catch the problem quickly? I notice that the people who write about the problem have driven a long time before finding the problem, usually after they stop and get out and notice diesel fuel under their vehicle. What does Dodge have to say?? What's the fix?? Is this a real problem??

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I do believe MOST injector failures/prroblems, other than clogging, are due to mechanical or electrical (in the case of later injectors) failures that fuel additives would NOT protect against.



Plenty of OTHER good reasons to use a good additive, however!

 

[RTuvell]

There has been some speculation that the fuel injector failures are caused by a fuel pump failure that releases particles into the fuel causing the injectors to fail. Additives sure wouldn't stop this problem!

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Here is probably the BEST explaination regarding injector failures. One word of caution is to be SUPER CAREFUL when changing fuel filters or doing anything that may open up the fuel system and risk contamination between the filter canister and the CP3.

The bad thing about the common rail system is anytime an injector starts leaking it sprays tons of fuel out the tip because it's under so much pressure.



Read Don M's post: http://www.nwbombers.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11930



Vaughn

 

[ceaman]

Vaughn,



Thanks for the post in reference to my truck. I would love to talk to Don M and find out if a new set of his injectors might have helped prevent my problems? or if is should go beyond the factory filtration and add a FASS or Airdog type system. If you could pass along to the bombers site and see if Don M might pass me along an email.



-- email address removed --

 

[rbattelle]

This is an excellent post by Don M:

Yes, I have seen a 24 valve drop a valve with extended duration EGT's. More than once.



After having many many of the Common Rail injectors disassembled and seen the ease at which they can become clogged with foreign material and ultimately stick in the open position... this does not surprise me too much.



I had a Common Rail injector on the tester this weekend with the z-hole clogged or obstructed and under 8000 PSI it was dumping fuel like mad. The z-hole is the valve that is regulated with the solenoid and a check ball. The solenoid lifts the check ball off the z-hole seat and allows the injection to take place. This check ball and z-hole seat is very small and takes just a small piece of debris to cause a malfunction. The fuel filtration system is adequate, but if it fails for any reason i. e. not changing the filters, not beng careful and letting a little piece of dirt get into the system when changing them, if a piece of something or another is in the system breaks free after use that tiny z-hole can clog and its all over.



The nozzles themselves rarely fail. The z-hole has high pressure fuel pushed in a direction that is almost self cleaning. As the check ball lifts from the seat, the newly pumped fuel from the system is pushed through the bottom side of the seat, clearing away any debris, but this debris can still get recirculated back to the seat area before the solenoid closes. So intermitant clogging of the injectors can take place.



Yep, if you stick an injector open, the amount of fuel injected is incredible and the engine can melt in short order. Even the preturbo pyro placement is just an average of all the cylinders on the bank you have the pyro installed. Leaving 3 of the 6 cylinder unmonitored. Post turbo can find a problem, but you need to understand the relationship between boost and load and most average users dont.



If I had a CR engine. I might just install a pyro in both sides of the manifold. Towing guys should.



Don~

 

[rbattelle]

Here is a cutaway drawing of our injectors. I have placed a large green arrow pointing toward the check ball to which Don is referring (I believe)...



I wonder if this is the same condition that caused Mack's engine to blow chunks?



#ad




-Ryan

 

[RM]

i think from the picture and the explanation of failures that a fuel additive would be very beneficial. also ive read a lot of litature from cat on fuel systems and most of them says that 5 micron debri is what causes most wear. im planning to put on extra filtration like a air dog with 3 micron filters and im running standyne fuel additive. and to add more evidance to my argunment just look at the failure rate of injectors and lift pumps in canada. where i think its been established they have crudey fuel. hope this helps ron

 

[BHolm]

I had an injector replaced at 5k miles. I have been using Redline additive since and not at 9k miles I have another one going. Better filtration should help, a good additive helps in other ways but I don't think it can prevent an injector failure. My '03 trucks have never had additives with 67k and 75k, no injector problems BUT they take fuel from MY filtered bulk tank. It is only a 10 micron but it is one more filter between the fuel and the injector. I think it may have made a difference.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Vaughn,



Thanks for the post in reference to my truck. I would love to talk to Don M and find out if a new set of his injectors might have helped prevent my problems? or if is should go beyond the factory filtration and add a FASS or Airdog type system. If you could pass along to the bombers site and see if Don M might pass me along an email.



-- email address removed --

ceaman, I posted a reply asking Don for a little filtration clarification. My guess is since he said the stock system is adequate you wouldn't increase your odds much going to another system. And with aftermarket injectors I'm sure they're identical internally, so I doubt that will help much either.



It seems even if you're supercareful, even little debris such as wear metals or any sort of filter or other material happens to break off and flow into an injector and get caught in the check valve, you're screwed. I don't see why a better design could be incorporated where one minute piece of debris isn't going to open up the injector's floodgates and cause major grief.



If I was designing a HPCR injector I would set it up with a prechamber which would be charged from the pressure rail with double the fuel required for one combustion event at WOT, and then inject what is needed then bleed off the rest. Shortly before the next power stroke recharge it. That way if there is some problem with the check valve, only the amount of fuel in the charge chamber is injected and that's it. . . it doesn't turn into a blowtorch or firehose.



Vaughn

 

[ceaman]

Vaughn,



I am in full agreement that, with the arguments provided, the design just leaves us screwed. I guess i should have asked what can we do to lower our chances of failure? If the factory filtration is acceptable, then the only further source of debris becomes the injection pump. This will bring us back to the original question; which lube method/ product will work the best to meet the demands of the Bosch pump?



I have used Howes Meaner Power Cleaner in almost every other tank full since the purchace of the truck new, and I dont feel as though it made much other difference than a slight increase in mileage.

 

[RTuvell]

ceaman,



Did they replace your injector pump with a new one when they rebuilt your engine?

 

[ceaman]

ceaman,



Did they replace your injector pump with a new one when they rebuilt your engine?

No they did not... they had a new one sitting in a box but had decided it wasnt needed.

 

[ceaman]

i found this info on dtr... . Talking about debris from worn injection pumps.



http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?postid=589296#post589296

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Interesting, sure enough, confirms one of my suspicions about injector failure.



Did you see the article in another thread discussing fuel lubricity ceaman? In effect 80% of US fuels have inadequate lubricity and this leads to accelerated wear of the CP3 which of course can cause injector problems. A good way to prevent this is fuel additives with lubricity. The Howes cleaner you use may have very little lubricity additive, I don't know. Go with Power Service, it's your best bet. Run the Howes cleaner occasionally as a good detergent for cleanup from time to time.



I run Amalgamated. It's kinda tough to get but after reading an article about it in the TDR magazine several issues ago I was sold on it. Supposedly has the best lubricity of any additive you can get your hands on, and highest cetane rating of all the major known brands. YOu have to get 5 gallons at a time, but that would work good for you with all the miles you drive. www.amalgamatedinc.com



Back to the CP3 sloughing off metal particles, it would be nice to incorporate a 3 micron screen filter between it and the fuel rail. One that can withstand the high pressures, and not leak! Pretty tall order for sure.



Vaughn

 

[ceaman]

Interesting, sure enough, confirms one of my suspicions about injector failure.



Did you see the article in another thread discussing fuel lubricity ceaman? In effect 80% of US fuels have inadequate lubricity and this leads to accelerated wear of the CP3 which of course can cause injector problems. A good way to prevent this is fuel additives with lubricity. The Howes cleaner you use may have very little lubricity additive, I don't know. Go with Power Service, it's your best bet. Run the Howes cleaner occasionally as a good detergent for cleanup from time to time.



I run Amalgamated. It's kinda tough to get but after reading an article about it in the TDR magazine several issues ago I was sold on it. Supposedly has the best lubricity of any additive you can get your hands on, and highest cetane rating of all the major known brands. YOu have to get 5 gallons at a time, but that would work good for you with all the miles you drive. www.amalgamatedinc.com



Back to the CP3 sloughing off metal particles, it would be nice to incorporate a 3 micron screen filter between it and the fuel rail. One that can withstand the high pressures, and not leak! Pretty tall order for sure.



Vaughn

I had forgotten about amalgamated I read an article on them as well, and they are less than an hour away from me (just so happens to be on the way to work).



I doubt we would find a decent filtering option for the high side of the pump but I still am thinking about a good filter system prior to the pump anyway, considering my fueling options become limited at times on the road and I don't always know the maintenance records of the places I might have to fuel!



It would be nice to find a way to hook a injection system up for the fuel additive. Similar to how a 2 cycle oil injection works to connect to the 5 gal of amalgamated. (Did I just get too lazy or too willing to complicate?)

 

[RTuvell]

Interesting, sure enough, confirms one of my suspicions about injector failure.



Did you see the article in another thread discussing fuel lubricity ceaman? In effect 80% of US fuels have inadequate lubricity and this leads to accelerated wear of the CP3 which of course can cause injector problems.



Back to the CP3 sloughing off metal particles, it would be nice to incorporate a 3 micron screen filter between it and the fuel rail. One that can withstand the high pressures, and not leak! Pretty tall order for sure.



Vaughn

Does anyone have a detailed description where someone has investigated a typical CP3 failure to determine the reason why it failed? It may be easy to assume the failures are due to lack of lubricity but there can be other reasons such as manufacturers defects. In the DTR thread that was referenced the Cummins representative implied that he knew why the Bosch CP3 was failing. I think we would all rest easier if someone with detailed knowledge would share the explanation for why there have been CP3 failures.

 

[ASpathias]

Thanks for all the input. Your input has given me an understanding of Bosch common rail system and how important it is to keep it clean while changing a fuel filter. Also I started to use a fuel additive. I will keep an eye out for any future information on issues or design changes that will make the common rail system more resistant to injector failure.