2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Can you switch from green coolant over to red without any harm?

[C. Harlan]

a guy at NAPA told me you cannot... . If you flush out the whole system anyway, what would it hurt?? I am thinking of using some ROTELLA ELC, as opposed to the ol' Zerex... . please let me know before I attempt...



-Chris-

 

[JohnE]

Yes you can

No you cannot.



How's that answer your question?



OK

Changing from conventional to extended life coolant (ELC) is actually rather easy. One must flush most of the residual coolant from the system as the chemistry packages are NOT (repeat NOT) compatible. The percentages vary but try keep the mixing under 5% contamination. Cummins engines were upgraded back in he early 90's for ELC. You can purchase ELC Fleetguard under the Compleat® brand name.



IMEO

ELC is great for a fill & forget concept. It gives an added measure of protection.

For fleetusers that follow a SCA program, conventional coolant is the better choice.

 

[Makensmoke]

so our engines are compatible for ELC but don't have it installed in them from factory cause its not orange er red, whatever right? If so not compatible, whats the outcome of mixing ELC with non ELC?

 

[Snow man]

If its anything like GM Dexcool,you dont want it in your engine.

 

[TowPro]

What ever happened to that Cummins TSB saying that the extended life stuff ate the silicon out of the gaskets, and they don't recomend using it?

 

[NETim]

Rotella ELC

I dunno... it sez right on the front of Rotella ELC bottles approved by Cummins etc. Also it is compatible with the old "green" stuff.



Tim

 

[me4osu]

Put it in mine a year and a half ago

No problems for 60,000 miles. I had the guys at Jiffy Lube do the swap with their coolant machine. Worked quite nicely, and I didn't have to try to dispose of the old crap.



I don't know how much of the old stuff was left, but you will never eliminate the old coolant unless you dismantle the engine and wash everything. Also, the ELC, in there now, looks like strawberry kool-aid, not brown like it would if mixed with a bunch the old green Ethylene-Glycol.

 

[illflem]

My understanding from bulletins I've received is that the only problem mixing the red and green is that the extended life of the red is greatly diminished. 10% is the limit for mixing, you should be able to get that much of the old out. Mixing info here http://www.amalgatech.com/technical/compatibility.htm



Why don't you give this a try http://www.cumminsnorthwest.com/News/ESXtreme.asp -$11 per premixed gallon from Cummins, and it's definitely approved by them.

 

[4xquadrod]

Jelly

If you do mix them it turns to a thick gel. I was told by a local radiator shop that the traditional green works better then the new orange stuff. They tend to convert cars back to the green If I understood them correctly.

 

[csevers]

Texanco ELC - Cummins

At work we use (for unknown reason) the Texaco ELC and we have had NOTHING but problems with mostly cummins engines from the 5. 9 up to the ISX head gaskets,rocker box gaskets water pumps block heater gaskets that stuff does not agree with the gasket material they use, so for one of the cures it was to add silicon back to the cooling system. We have never had a problem with cavetation in liners or other cooling system problems before. In general we have more cold water leaks than ever and a lot of seaping gasket/ o-rings for alot of other things. I will NEVER put ELC of any kind in my equiptment .





Craig

 

[flattracker]

I have maintained a fleet of oilfield service trucks for 28 years and we have used the ELC ever since it was introduced and have had zero problems over a period of 8 years and several million miles in everything from cat and cummins truck engines down to a Kubota tractor. If you bought anything mfg. by GM or caterpillar over the last 6 years it had ELC in it from the factory, do you really think they would continue putting it in there if it was causing warranty claims. I changed the water pump on a buddy's 98 chevy pickup the other day 138,000 mi. never had the coolant changed , had 0 corrosion the cooling system looked like new inside, I can guarantee you that similar miles on green coolant without a change will give you a system full of rust.

 

[Mundgyver]

As I sit here and write this, I just happen to have a bottle of Havoline Extended Life Anti-Freeze/Coolant (DEX-COOL) sitting in front of me. I also have a bottle of the Fleetguard ESXTREME Antifreeze Coolant (Prediluted Engine Coolant, Do not add Water) with a Fleetguard pt. # of CC2785 sitting in front of me. Fleetguard is the prepared one here and is what I am using.



You do not want to mix either of these with the green anit-freeze because they will as mentioned earlier turn to a jello like thickness and once turned - your screwed - heater core and radiator core will have to be removed most likely.



There is a method of flush that works very well when followed and it is cheap.



I am using the Fleetguard 600,000 mile, (5year), 12,000 hour stuff mentioned above.



Drain you radiator and block out. Pull the heater hose from the head and back flush both the heater core and the block till you get fresh clean looking water.



Next take 4 large scoops of electrosol powder dish-washing soap and put it in the radiator as you are running the engine and the water is just warming up. Next step is to go and drive it for 30 to 40 miles and get it good and hot with this fresh water mix and electrosol.



Drain this down and flush as stated before with fresh water. At this point I chose to remove my thermostat and then re-serviced with regular water and took it out again for another 30 miles.



Got back drained down one last time, blew out the heater core with an air hose and serviced up through the thermostat opening and then put in a new thermostat's. The inside of the block and radiator look brand new with no rust at all.



I used the 50/50 mix part # CC2785 through Fleetguard. Was $8. 00 a gallon and I used 6 of them.



I like this stuff better than the factory green and it is approved for this engine. The step of using Electrosol powder dish soap was given to me the the Cummins mechanics who do this on a routine basis. I've got around 23,000 miles of driving on this new stuff and have had no problems what so ever. Good luck on what ever you decide

 

[JohnE]

There is problems associated with ALL anti-freeze/coolants (A-F/C)in the market.



High silcate A-F/C was conceived to add more protection for soft metal parts. Problem with high silicate is the stuff precipitates out of solution after aout 2-3 years and forms gels that stick to most every metal surface. Let the gel dry and you can only remove it by acid pickling which is really hard on the rest of the parts.

Yes mix in an ELC and the silicates will settle much faster. Remember, I wrote the chemistries are not compatable?



The low silcate A-F/C lessens the precipitate, but the corrosion and rust protection fades fast in the high ph. Along comes DCA to lower ph and help extend the corrosion and rust protection.



ELCs use a different chemistry for the EXTENDED portion of the name. It is an organic acid based formula that lowers the natural high ph of glycols. It does an excellant job on coolant system protection, but that protection is sometimes compromised due to gasket errosion.



Not all <font color=green>GREEN</font> a-f/c is a high silicate formula. Diesel grade low phosphorous & low silcate A-F/C is green, too. It only requires an initial charge of DCA



Fully formulated A-F/C is pink. It is pre-charged with DCA and either prediluted or in concentrate.



Going back to the ELC and green stuff. illflem gave the standard no more than 10% conventional coolant residual when changing to ELC. I tend to really go conservative and say 5%. The chemistry in conventional A-F/C basically kills the EXTENDED part of ELC.

 

[Makensmoke]

JohnE



Your knowledge of antifreeze is VERY informative, cure my curiosity and tell us what you reccomend in our CTD's.

 

[JohnE]

Regular & preventative maintenance per your manual

Use quality A-F/C, mix with de-mineralized/distilled water, and keep it full.

The "B" Cummins is very forgiving compared to Navstar

 

[Diesel Gunner]

Thanks JohnE. It sometimes is a breath of fresh air to hear someone recommend the proper procedure. These coolant threads can, at times, become somewhat like oil threads.



My owners manual states that the only recommended coolant is an ethylene glycol based type. There are several to chose from. The carboxylate acid type coolants may not be the panacea that everyone is looking for. Yes, they are long life. I hate servicing the cooling system myself. However I could not justify the added expense of the Delo ELC ($15. 95/gal). I tend to agree with you and highly recommend that every attempt is made to eliminate ALL air in the system. Corrosion requires oxygen, so this will lend itself well to helping to reduce its occurrence.



It is, however, interesting to hear what kind of performance that others are having with different products. So I will continue to read the threads.

 

[Bill Lins]

A couple of questions

Originally posted by JohnE

The low silcate A-F/C lessens the precipitate, but the corrosion and rust protection fades fast in the high ph. Along comes DCA to lower ph and help extend the corrosion and rust protection.



Diesel grade low phosphorous & low silcate A-F/C is green, too. It only requires an initial charge of DCA

How often should the low-silicate A-F/C be changed? I've been changing mine every other year. Is the "initial charge of DCA" already in the A-F/C or does it need to be added? If so, where do you get it & what kind is best?

 

[redram]

Originally posted by TowPro

What ever happened to that Cummins TSB saying that the extended life stuff ate the silicon out of the gaskets, and they don't recomend using it?

That quote was put out before Fleetrite had a comparable product. Now that Cat, International, John Deere, Detroit deisel all either factory fill or offer a private label of the Texaco ELC, it's accepted.



I personally have been running Texaco's ELC Premixed version for the last 5 years with great results.



i switched to it because while trouble shooting the 'over active' water temp guage on my 96, I noticed that I already had solder bloom and silicate deposits in my radiator with the factory fill 'green' ethylene glycol as opposed to the 'orange/pink' ethylene glycol of the ELC type fluid. The major difference is that the green corrosion inhibitor is a silcate inhibitor while the orange uses a carboxylate non silicate corrosion inhibitor package.



People will scream that you can't do that but I for one will not go back to the green style coolant in my 96 truck. It runs cooler and being from Texas, i do see some warm weather. Oo.

 

[JohnE]

How often should the low-silicate A-F/C be changed? ...

Is the "initial charge of DCA" already in the A-F/C or does it need to be added? If so, where do you get it & what kind is best?

If you do not use DCA every 2 years is a good policy. Including a complete flush to remove silcates, scale, etc.

Green A-F/C does not come formulated (no initial DCA or SCA).



There are 2 abbreviations used back & forth. Supplemental Coolant Additives (SCA) and Diesel Cooling Additive (DCA). The common chemistries are DCA2 (Nalcool) and is the recommended SCA by CAT, Navstar, DD, etc. Fleetguard produces a unique SCA called DCA4+ I really like the DCA4+ features, but either work well if you decide to supplement.

If you do supplement you will have to use test strips to verify the proper nittrating level is maintained.

These are for conventional A-F/C or borate/nitrite chemistries. ELC requires a special extended life SCA.



Cummins now also recommends (and sells) PG or propylene glycol based A-F/C.



edited to add

i switched to it because while trouble shooting the 'over active' water temp guage on my 96, I noticed that I already had solder bloom and silicate deposits in my radiator with the factory fill 'green' ethylene glycol as opposed to the 'orange/pink' ethylene glycol of the ELC type fluid. The major difference is that the green corrosion inhibitor is a silcate inhibitor while the orange uses a carboxylate non silicate corrosion inhibitor package.

Solder bloom and silicate and other precipitates is the enemy. Green A-F/C uses borate/nitrite chemistries to fight corrosion.



The inhibitors and SCAs are controlling the problems caused by mixing EG or PG with water



Has anybody looked into the Evans waterless PG system? I like the specs, but cannot justify the $150 fill cost.

 

[illflem]

Pretty much a no brainer for me that I'll only be using 600k mile extended drain Fleetguard ESXtreme from now on.