Canadian writes about Britains Gun control

[Ameradian]

I forgot to mention, did you notice that the US had 19,650 murders in this time frame while England had just 681? Their numbers would no doubt of a little when Scotland, Wales, and N. Ireland are added, but not by much. Scotland has only one tenth the population of England and Wales is even less. So may, say 800 total muders for the UK while we have 19, 650. What about population factors. We are, after all, roughly 4. 13 times as populated. Times that by 800 and we find that the UK, adjusted for population disparities, is 3343. Let me state agin, ours is 19,650!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quite a difference.
Cheers
Bill

 

[Ameradian]

Dave B. proves that, as usual, Americans do not know what they are talking about. First, Britain only outlawed guns after a mass murder event long after WWII. Secondly, these guns never protected the UK. Hitler could not even cross the channel unless he took the RAF to task and he failed at that little event. Remember the Battle of Britain? Third, am I to believe that you actually think that American handguns and rifles would have stopped a Panzer division? Or any Nazi attack? The only material which we supplied that tilted the balance, to give but one salient example, was that we produced more aircraft than all the other combatants combined (both Allied and Axis)!!!! It was not our puny handguns and rifles that did a thing. Now, as for this anti-British sentiment am I to take from Gene's and Dave's comments that America is never wrong? That we can never learn from another country? Must I remind you that our enlightened foundering fathers WERE British--NOT Americans!!!!! We are not always right, in fact we are often more wrong than our allies. The arrogence displayed here is exactly why Americans are so disliked overseas. Let's leave this sort of jingoism for the French.
Cheers
Bill

 

[Sled Puller]

1) That chart is from 1996.
2) Statistics having anything to do with the Clinton Administration can't be trusted, they have a habit of fudging numbers to twist facts to push their agenda through.
3)Lets see Australias figures for the last 5 years.

4)Lets look at those stats again taking off the cities with strict gun control. Wash. D. C. , New York, LA. Those should be sufficient. I'll bet they have a brand new look. Now take off drug-related crime.
I bet you won't find any charts with those figures, because they can't scare us with them.
Dave B
DOES know what he is talking about.
I have sen the ads from the 1940's begging for guns to be shipped over.
Stop a Panzer division? No. Harrass them to death after they came across, yes.
You should look up what happened in a little Warsaw Ghetto with a few private guns. Not the Steven Spielburgh version, but the real thing.
Absolutely we can learn from EVERY other country in the world who has implemented gun control.
Let us review, Perffessor
Something to think about...

> "In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun
> control.
>
> From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million
> dissidents, unable to
>
> defend themselves, were rounded up and
> exterminated.
>
>
> "In 1911, Turkey established gun control.
>
> From 1915 to 1917, 1. 5 million Armenians,
> unable to defend
> themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
>
>
>
> "Germany established gun control in 1938.
> From 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others
> who were unable
> to defend themselves were rounded up and
> exterminated.
>
>
> "China established gun control in 1935.
>
> From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political
> dissidents, unable
> to defend themselves, were rounded up and
> exterminated.
>
>
> "Guatemala established gun control in 1964.
>
> From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians,
> unable to defend
>
> themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
>
>
>
> "Uganda established gun control in 1970.
>
> From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable
> to defend
> themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
>
>
> "Cambodia established gun control in 1956.
> From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated'
> people, unable to defend
>
> themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. "
>
>
>
> Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated
> in the 20th Century
> because of gun control: approximately 56 million.
>
>
>
> The next time someone talks in favor of gun
> control,
>
> ask them "Who do YOU want to round up and
> exterminate?"
>
> With guns, we are citizens. Without them, we
> are subjects
>
>
P. S. "Confidence is contagious. So is lack of
> confidence. "
> -- Vince Lombardi -- something to think
> about...

Let me guess, Gun Control just has not been right, yet.
You are wrong Bill, and In the United States of America, you will ALWAYS be wrong.
Gene




------------------
1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled. Amsoil Premiere Direct Jobber, Member of: NRA Business Alliance, GLTDR, WANTED: Wrecked Dodges.
www.awdist.com

 

[Ameradian]

Well, Gene all of your conclusions fall foul by ignoring vital facts. First, you have already stated that it is a fact that where guns are banned violent crimes go up. Your thesis however flounders when reviewed in the light of facts. In Canada, for example, the average median for murders per 100,000 per annum is only 1. 8 (time averaged for the last three years). In Mass. a state with fairly strict gun control it is only 2. 2. Now in Montana, where my family hails from and a very progun area with lots of people putting guns right in their trucks, it raises to 5. 0 per 100,000, while Texas, home of the gun carriers, it raises to 6. 8. So you see Gene you are wrong. There is no simple direct relationship betwwen gun ownership and safety, in fact it might just be the reverse. Next, you claim that the Clinton administration skewes its statistics. Where, if I may ask, is your proof for this assertion? You see in my business we are expected to actually prove what we claim and to defend even the most secure conclusions. I have already pointed out to you that suspending critical judgment in pursuit of propping up your favorite *tendez* simply discredits your side. You seem to rely on hearsay rather than solid analysis. Oh well, there will always be people who refuse to critically investigate their positions. Now, as for you claims that all of these nations had murdered their own people because they could not defend themselves this is sheer nonsense. I have five degrees, 3 in a field which deals with history. For every example you give there is another example where genocide tranpired but where the people could defend themselves. Moreover, you seem inclined to believe the follish proposition that if these people had guns they would not have been overrun and murdered. Really Gene? Organized military personel with tanks and armored carriers would have brought low every one of these groups with or without guns. In other words, you accept uncritically a direct cause-and-effect relationship when that is not all at obvious, even at first blush. In order to establish this claim you would need to examine other examples where the people had weapons, as well as accounting for other factors. Have you done that Gene? No, of course not, your an American and by God, Americans just do not need to do that, we are just right by birth. Wow, how blessed I am to be an American! Foolish me, I actually have been deluded in believing in study and analysis! Well, enough said, I do not have the free time to debate with someone who well not even pick up a book, or check their facts before they advance their position.
Cheers
Bill

 

[Ameradian]

There are two things I forgot to mention. First, go to www.ojp. usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm. .
You will see just how handguns have contibuted to violence in our society. Also, it is worth observing that in the UK the Tory Party, a party with very close links to the Bush people, never calls for the reintroduction of guns into Britain. They know by experince and by unambiguous statistics that the lack of guns in the UK has made the country much safer. They know what you refuse to even consider. I could go on and on with the date that calls into question your uncritically acceptance of gun ownership but I have bigger fish to fry.
Cheers
Bill

 

[Ameradian]

Two periods killed the web site so I shall replace it here. It is www.ojp. usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm
I shall check to make sure this works.

 

[Ameradian]

Gene, one last point. You need to explain, beyond just the fact that genocide occurs in countries with weapons in the hands of the people, if prohibition of guns leads to genocide, why Canada and Britain are not included in your series. And above why is Nazi Germany included, but not post-WWII Germany which has even more strict gun laws than Britain or Canada. No genocide there. As you can see there is NO relationship between the prohibition of guns and government genocide, but it is predicated COMPLETELY upon the nature of the government who enacts the laws. Guns do not stop genocide, nor do their absence encourage it, it all rests on the nature of the government in question. You have, as usual, included a biased selection sample. Tisk, tisk. Now as I write this the news has just reported of a shooting in Tx. where three people where murdered. When will we ever question our underlying assumptions. Speaking of assumptions, amoung European countries (not including Britain)the Germans are the most dedicated to Democracy and human rights. The entire Hitler crap have made the Germans much more dedicated to observing human rights than other governments there. Just wanted to dispel yet another American myth that I encounter more times then I care to recall when I am Stateside.
Cheers

 

[Sled Puller]

I see you pull a few examples that back your position up no matter how small they are.
How come there is so much gun crime in the cities I mention when most guns are banned in those places?

Sorry to hear about the 3 people in Texas. Were they unarmed?
Did the media mention about the dozens of people a firearm protected today?
Taking my pistol would have saved those people, right?


I looked at your charts, overall gun crime is falling, care to tell us why?

Are we a Democracy?
What is your exact stand on guns?
What is your exact stand on Freedom?

We would all like to live in a perfect world, but it won't happen.
I also enjoy target shooting and hunting.
Do you think these activitys are wrong also?
Do you think the American Revolution was wrong?
Why do think that oppressing others will make you safer?

A little side bit,
I traveled the USA for 3 months in my new Ram. Left it parked all over with a tonneau cover hiding all my tools. Noone ever messed with it.
One night in Quebec, and it was liberated. Yep, no crime in Canada!

Gene


------------------
1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled. Amsoil Premiere Direct Jobber, Member of: NRA Business Alliance, GLTDR, WANTED: Wrecked Dodges.
www.awdist.com

 

[Jim Guidry]

And above why is Nazi Germany included, but not post-WWII Germany which has even more strict gun laws than Britain or Canada. No genocide there.

Yet.

 

[Dave B]

So Bill, what you are saying is that Panzer Divisions rounded up the Jews? Tell me Bill, are you saying that since Britain couldn't have stopped an invasion (yes, except for the RAF) had one happened, that it would be better to just surrender and walk willingly into "the shower" than fight? I would submit that an old American deer rifle would have been better than willingly walking into gas chamber or being shot in the back of the head. Your country's history is different than ours. We have our freedoms because we know what it takes to keep it... at a great sacrifice. And, yes, the founding fathers originated from Britain... . and, given the fact they shot the crap out of their former countrymen, and given the way they wrote the Constitution, pretty much shows they didn't like the way the Brits do business. Sorry chum, neither do I.

[This message has been edited by Dave B (edited 01-09-2001). ]

 

[Lil' Dog]

Ameradian has some good points about some of our stats. The Montreal thing was back only about 10 years ago.
As for the crime stats, one of the reasons for the lower crime rates in some of the Canadian cities is the lower population densities and lower unemployment rates in these areas. The point I had about our registration is more aimed at rural lifestyles that are getting the shaft for the sake of big city crime scares.
Good discussion guys, just remember every opinion is just that. #ad
There are alot of good views here.

Jason

 

[danandamy]

Originally posted by Ameradian:... They know by experince and by unambiguous statistics that the lack of guns in the UK has made the country much safer... .
Bill [/B]

It's 3AM. You are barricaded in your bedroom with your wife and children while intruders are kicking your door in. You are safer:
A: Clutching the phone trying to dial 911, assuming the intruders were too stupid to cut the phone lines, hoping the cops will show up in time to fill out a very thourough crime report about what happened. Or. .
B: You jack the pump action on your 12 gauge Mossberg shotgun, loading the chamber with a round of "00".
If you wanna pick "A" go ahead but if you honestly believe that, your living in a dream land.

Daniel
I don't dial "911"

 

[Dave B]

Dan's scenario fits GEORGE HARRISON (the former Beatle) perfectly..... he and the wife had to beat the crap outta the guy with what, a lamp and a fireplace poker??while waiting for the cops... IN BRITAIN.

I'm with Dan... ... better the Mossberg than a lamp.

 

[Briar Hopper]

Ameradian, I love the people of Canada, my own grandfather was from Montreal. But that country is a principality, not a democracy. They do not enjoy the same freedoms we do.
All that gun control accomplishes is to remove firearms from the hands of law-abiding citizens. The criminals WILL ALWAYS have guns, or access to them, no matter what.
Laws against drugs do nothing to stop the influx of such into this country. More laws will not prevent criminals from gaining access to firearms.
The intentions of people like you, while well-meaning, can and will cause great harm to our country and freedoms, if carried out. I have no intentions of surrendering any of my firearms, it is my God-given right to protect myself and my family.
You are welcome to your misguided views. I sincerely hope someone breaks into your home tonight and re-educates you. What are you going to defend yourself with? The Supreme Court has ruled that police, anywhere in the nation, are under no legal obligation to furnish you protection. I've been robbed at gunpoint before(I lived in Birmingham, Alabama at the time)and it's not going to happen again, I promise you.
Why does Rosie O'Donnell, an outspoken gun control advocate, employ a bodyguard who carries a firearm? The bodyguard is a private citizen, without police powers...
Jane Fonda, when she was married to Ted Turner, defended herself against an intruder in their Montana ranch home, using a firearm. The use of the firearm was documented in the police report. Yet, she is a rabidly outspoken opponent of the right to bear arms.
Blaming guns for Columbine is like blaming spoons for making Rosie O'Donnell fat...

 

[Ameradian]

My God, ignorance just abounds with you guys. First, I AM an American, 4th generation. Frankly some of you guys can't even read correctly. Secondly, you all seem to be missing the very point which is right in front of you. In the Harrision case, the lunatic could not find a gun and attacked with a knife. Because of this Harrision COULD fight him off and he survived. Had that nut come in with a gun Harrison would be dead now. You guys all love to say that your guns will protect you from some guntotting nut, but the facts do not support this claim. Whenever a person shots at another person, in defending their home for example, this is reported and collated into DOJ figures. The number of people who have saved their life by employing a gun is miniscule in comparison with those people killed by a gun in the first place. Why do you think that all of Western Europe, Britain, and Canada have much lower murder rates? It is because while you do not have a gun, neither does the killer in most cases. Canada forms a slight exception here because people can own rifles and as many as 1 in 10 Canadians has a firearm. This stands in stark contrast to our figures, we have over 200,000,000 million guns here!!!! My God you guys just can't see what is staring at you right in the face. It is so obvious (except to my fellow Americans) why we have such high murder rates. It is because we allow guns here (of course sociological factors are what causes a person to become so messed up that they want to kill in the first place--but I would rather have Britain's knife-welding manics than our gun-welding ones. Can you say Columbine? Compare that to the nut who runs into a place with a knife such as happens in Britain now and again, no mass murders in these cases!).
Next, the statement that Canada is not a democracy is so stupid that I can't even dignify that with a response. Had you ever bothered to live there (or even study Canadian politics) you would quickly learn that in many respects their understanding of democracy is superior to ours. Americans are simply too arrogent to even consider that another nation might actually understand democracy better than us, or at least have a tenable, albiet alternative, take on democratic processes. Thankfully, I can find one consolation in this discussion though; if all the NRA members are as quick to draw unsupported conclusions as you guys then the task of making this country a more safe and humane place might just be possible.
Cheers
Bill

 

[Briar Hopper]

Ameradian, it is a foolish assumption on your part to think that MGM is ill-educated, has not "done his homework" , etc. Flout your college degrees all you want, they do not make you educated. Your last, long meandering post on this thread can be dissembled by any well-educated person as pure hogwash. You said a lot, without really saying anything, in an effort to defend a viewpoint that YOU have not adequately researched. I know of instances where educated, open-minded people researched both sides of the issue (Dr. Gary Lott, for example)and concluded that gun control does not work. I come by my political views dearly, at great expense. I am well read, well-educated, and know that MGM is too.
It is a sad commentary on the state of our nation that our universities and colleges are full of misguided liberal educators, filling the heads of our young people with garbage.

 

[Briar Hopper]

I lived there, Bill, and understand their views. I'm neither stupid nor an arrogant American, though I am deeply patriotic. You are welcome to your views. You are in a very distinct minority, I assure you, both on this website, and in this country.

 

[Jim Guidry]

Ameradian, your intellect is staggering, your education is obviously vast and your grasp on the English language is uncommonly precise. But, your intuition stinks! Think for yourself, man!

I never felt fear and from watching the news reports you learn quite rapidly that they have much less violent crime.

The article that started this thread cited many instances of simple, brutal assault. Maybe, that doesn’t make the news as often as gun crime? Remember the press in the US loves to trumpet many of the same principles that you believe:

Gun control is a very good thing.

You depend very heavily on US government articles. Please keep in mind the government we’ve had in the last eight years has been very anti-gun. The studies will reflect this attitude. I’m sure that even the third best school in England taught classes on statistics, and their manipulation. Statistics on the nightly news, 60 Minutes, etc. , are bunk! Carefully planned and distributed to move public opinion in the desired direction. Obviously, it works on weak minds!


It’s not arrogance, Ameradian. Real Americans are self-reliant. We work our way, play our way and defend ourselves our way. It’s called FREEDOM. I refuse to put the safety of my wife and I in the hands of ANY government. I see it as my duty to protect her, and my chosen tool is a revolver, not 9-1-1. I won't give up that right, just to make "Americans" like you feel safer.

First, I AM an American, 4th generation.

#ad

 

[Sled Puller]

I see our Socialist friend won't answer my questions. He probably does not like the answers.
The most important one.
WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY.
WE ARE A REPUBLIC.
There is a difference , look it up. So if the Canadians know more about a Democracy, more power to them!
If our country is so dangerous, why are our borders being over run by illegal aliens? They want to be here. It is the best ride in town. Until we let it go.
Sometimes I think people like Ameradian are plants, trying to keep an eye on loyal Americans, making a list, checking it twice.
But I know that is not happening, right?
Gene

 

[Dave B]

Ameridian,

You are welcome to your personal opinions on this issue, as we all are. But I gotta tell you, to state that a homeowner doesn't need a gun to defend themselves against an intruder, knife/gun/unarmed, whatever, certainly implies you are living in a fantasy land. When was the last time you were ever in a physical altercation? Ever been a cop? Ever had someone try to disarm you? Ever try and arrest someone (UNARMED) who just stands there and sez "... . boy, I ain't a goin... " and sticks and spray and dogs n s--- just don't work??? George Harrison's case proves my point: he and the wife BOTH had to fight the fruitcake. What if Georgie and the wife had been elderly? Or if Georgie had been slightly unlucky and gotten cut... he and the wife are then at the mercy of the guy. However, as Dan said, jack a round in the ol' duck gun and the fight is over... ...

You are entitled to your opinions on gun control, but you are full of poop as a Christmas goose to think that YOU or anyone else can and would be physically able to defeat then control a bad guy (who doesn't wanna be controlled) and call the cops at the same time... maybe you get lucky and get a guy you can take, then again, maybe you won't. I hope for your sake on this one point of this issue, that you realize what you are letting yourself and your family in for.