Canadian writes about Britains Gun control

[NETim]

Rush

Steve, lighten up there bud! It IS possible to listen to Rush and still be able to think for oneself. The arguments that Rush uses to defend gun rights are the same ones that I was reading in Guns and Ammo long before Rush came along. Those arguments are as true today as they were 25 or 50 years ago.



Regardless of your personal feelings about Rush, the man is still right about a great many things. That is indisputable.



Unfortunately, gun control enthusiasts always argue from the standpoint that gun control works. Where do gun laws work? It just feels good and that's good enough for them. Drug laws don't keep drugs out of the hands of drug abusers. What makes anyone think that gun laws have any better chance?



What's so magical about gun laws? Is it any more difficult to smuggle in a boatload of AK's than it is a load of coke?



I don't dispute that the rates of violent crime are higher in America than in Britain or Canada. I do dispute the root causes however.



America is a violent society because we, the citizens of this country, permit it. Violence and death long ago lost their ability to shock and mortify us.



We've accepted it as part of the requirement to be "tolerant. " It's not the criminal's fault, it's society's fault. So off we go, tough love tossed aside and we go about coddling the bad guys the best that our tax dollars will allow and hope that it's all better in the morning. At least, that's the "remedy" we've been peddled for so long.



Make it "uncool" again to be a criminal. Whack the bad guys hard, real hard, when they do wrong and quit sniveling about rehab. It ain't going to happen with these losers. They think that they have a "right" to misbehave. The more we coddle them, the stronger their belief in that "right. "



Personally, I don't believe that American's crime problem will not be solved until a little "frontier justice" re-emerges.



Fight crime. Shoot back.



The US justice system long ago ceased to be a means for punishing the evil and meting out justice. Now it's simply a way to make a living and pay for BMW's. Justice is merely a second thought, an accidental occurence at best.



Watch the outcome of the "Johnny Bin Walker" case.

Does anyone really believe he'll hang for his obvious treason?



All this because we have turned a blind eye to "what's going on. "



Tim Matthews

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by Ameradian

Really Gene? From what data set do you draw this inference? Bill

Bill, we can go the other way, as well.



A number of years ago, my state, Oregon, passed a concealed carry law, giving everyone the right to carry a concealed weapon, provided they passed a safety course and background check.



People did, too. Within 3 years, more than 200,000 Oregonians obtained CC permits. With no other "crime initiatives" put in place, that one thing reduced violent crime in the highest crime areas in Oregon by double digit percentages in the first 3 years it was implemented. The trend was sharp, solid and totally unmistakeable. Violent crime decreased the most in the areas with the highest crime and decreased the least in the areas with the least crime. Everyone in Oregon (except a few die-hard left-wing nuts) was forced to admit that arming the populace decreased violent crime. This included rape, murder, and armed robbery.



At the same time Vera Katz (Mayor of Portland, largest city and single largest beneficiary of crime reduction) was quoted as saying something to the effect of "well, it does reduce crime, but I still think we should ban guns anyway".



I see you and Vera Katz operate on the same wavelength. Politics (stupid ideas about gun control) must win, in spite of reality showing gun control being utterly worthless as a crime control measure.

 

[Steve M]

And then Sled Puller piped in,

Steve,

I DID do my homework, I stumbled across this old thread while searching for other political stuff,

Amaradien WAS NOT banned, he chose not to sign up again after the big switch.

Yes, the three strikes seems to lenient in violent cases. As always Steve, you bring up some good points.

Don't you even wonder a little bit if that guy even had a Dodge??



Sled,

My mistake. His profile says 'banned' so I took it at it's word. I don't blame him for not continuing his membership. Part of a successful forum is being able to "agree to disagree" and accept that we all have our own opinions. If nothing else, just to learn what makes another's opinion what it is.

I have to assume he owned a DC. Why would he put so much into a forum if he shared no interests with it's members? A DC pickup is just a truck. Anyone who can afford one can own one.



Tim, I agree 100%. Every word is true and you didn't have to write a novel to get it across.

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by Ameradian

I must tell you folks this is a load of rubbish. I have lived in the Great White North three times (great country IMHO) and the UK twice (I did my PhD at their third best school after Cambridge and Oxford, viz. the University of Edinburgh)and they are MUCH safer places. I never felt fear and from watching the news reports you learn quite rapidly that they have much less violent crime. It is very rare to hear of a murder in the UK, yet when when compard to California, for example, which has less than half of the UK population (66. 5 million vs. 34. 5 million), one hears of killings (plural people, and I do mean plural) every single day. Canada is in some respects even safer. I do agree with his observation that most crimes in these countries do take place in areas where the people are cash strapped or in drug havens. Still, although I'm not sure about the figures concerning property crimes and the like I do dispute his so-called facts on the rest of his crime numbers. It takes all of about two weeks living in Canada or Britain to realize that they suffer much less violent crime (including murder) than we do. This person is simply so pro-gun that they have lost their objectivity and are just ****** off that he has to register his gun. Just had to defend the reputation of my two adopted countries.

Cheers

Bill

Well, Bill... for one who accuses us who are against crazy gun laws of being ignorant, I'd say you've strayed vastly into that area yourself.



In about 20 minutes of research on the internet, looking at data provided by the US and other governments and by the UN and other organizations, it becomes apparent that you've never actually checked into the matter.



While most anti-gun zealots focus on a single statistic (murder), they either downplay or totally ignore all other crime - including rape, assualt, etc.



http://ruljis.leidenuniv.nl/group/jfcr/www/icvs/data/i_VIC.HTM



This link above is to an interesting little chart. It shows that you are definitely NOT less likely to be a crime victim in Britain than the US. It also shows that violet crime in Britain (assults, etc) have been escalating dramatically, but only fluctuating in the US.



Further, what makes your arguments SO wrong, is that you attempt to compare nations of immensly divergent sizes and populations, as well as being vastly divergent ethnically and culturally. Attempts to use this apples/oranges comparison to prove "gun control" effectiveness is just plain rubbish, to use a kind word.



The only thing that you can use to judge the effectiveness of gun banning, is to establish the trends which occurr within a region with the implementation / repeal of gun control, or with the comparison of very similar situations that have / don't have strict gun bans. In all of those situations... you lose. Florida, oregon, several southern states, all in the last 2 decades, have passed laws that effectively arm the population. In EVERY instance, crime fell and stays low relative to it's previous growth / decrease or in comparison to nearby regions without the change.



Yet, I can gaurantee you that NO crime statistics an be found which will demonstrate any clear trend downward upon the implementation of strict gun control. It has never happened. And it won't, since the very concept is in opposition to reality.



Your comments about the "safety" of Britain may have something to do with the fact that Britain maintains an ENORMOUS police force in it's urban and suburban areas. In any major city, one cannot be in a public place and out of view of a police presence. Live cameras, patrolling officers, undercover police, and so on, in vastly higher concentrations and percentages of the population than here in the US. Yet, crime statistics show that Britain's overall crime rate is now higher than the US overall crime rate.

 

[JohnMcIntyre]

From the other side of the pond.....

Mark, I am a TDR member based in the UK but currently on assignment overseas. Unlike Bill/Ameradian, I am a real UK citizen, not adopted, visiting or just passing through.



I have been following this thread so far with interest, especially as I was one amongst many legally registered gun owners, who were required to surrender their handguns to the British authorities in 1997, following the Dunblane atrocity in Scotland.



Your points concerning the "safety" of Britain and the overall crime rate in the UK being higher than in the USA, does indeed present a worrying trend for UK politicians and police forces alike.



It may not have been widely reported in the USA, but last year thre was a case of a farmer, Tony Martin, who surprised three intruders in his own home during the middle of the night and retaliated with his 12 gauge shotgun, seriously injuring one, killing another, whilst the other one got away, but was later caught. Following a very public trial, Tony Martin was found guilty of murder, (citing the unreasonable use of force!!) and was sentenced to a lengthy term behind bars.



The normally restrained British citizens were disgusted with this verdict and the case subsequently went to a successful appeal with a much reduced sentence.



The point I am making here, is that at a grass-roots level across the whole country, for the average Mr. & Mrs. law-abiding British citizen, personal safety is a very real concern. We do not have a formal constitution or a Bill of Rights to fall back upon, just common law which has evolved thoughout British history, but we do have a history of fair-play and social/political tolerance.



It's difficult to say how things will turn out, but after having lived in the UK for most of my life, I've seen many changes and it would not surprise me to see the British police becoming a fully armed police force at some future (and not too distant!) date, because there is a very significant number of British police now already armed (but not heavily publicised) and I am not just talking about the visible deterrent at major airports, docks and on bodyguard duties for royal family and visiting dignitaries either.



A wind of change is slowly moving across the UK that started with the gas & diesel price hikes revolt a few years back, which forced the UK government to sit up and take notice and as you quite rightly point out, we do have a significant police presence, which is increasing, but the underlying concern is as ever, "There's never, ever a sheriff around when you REALLY need one".



Just to show my impartiality, why not take the Challenge and Observations Test ... ... .....

 

[Power Wagon]

I have a vague recollection of reading about it, but did not remember any particulars. However, in reading some of the pundits and even a few British scholars, one of the more sarcastic sayings I've stumbled across is that the UK police ALWAYS get thier man... If they can't catch the perpetrator, they prosecute the victim. While this sounds a bit far fetched, your story demonstrates it to me. I'm of the opinion that it is entirely justified for anyone to defend his life, his domain, his safety AND his property with deadly force. If someone invades your space with intent to do crime, their death is justified and therefore not prosecutable.



Makes people think twice about attacking someone else.

 

[NETim]

home invasion

Home invasion is a crime. We cannot pretend to know what the invader has on his mind. Safe to assume that they are armed and are ready, willing and able to do harm. To assume less is tantamount to disaster.



In the book, "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob, he advocates to open fire and keep firing until you are out of ammo. Do not announce your presence or attempt to disarm them. OPEN FIRE!



There is more at stake here than mere material possessions. Our house is our sanctuary, our haven. If we cannot defend it against any and all intruders, is it really ours? Is there really such a thing as private property?



The left would have us believe that there is no such thing as private property. No surprises there, eh? Another reason they want to disarm law abiding citizens. Just one more nail in capitalism's coffin.



Tim

 

[The patriot]

Mas rules!!!



Too bad for me I live in New Jersey. I'd get jail time for defending myself,my Wife and property. (not to mention, probibally being sued by the perpitrators family for ending the criminals "career")

Whats wrong with this picture?

Eric

 

[Sled Puller]

What are the chances Perfessor Cheers Bill spent $35 to use this thread in a lecture or something???

 

[NVR FNSH]

Gene,

When are you going to stop throwing out 'accusations' when somebody disagrees with you or you are backed into a corner? You accussed me of being a 'liberal follower' (something along that line) in one of the Amsoil threads. Here, you're doing it again. Ask the guy his beliefs or party registration. Don't be a petty child and throw out 'LIBERAL/SOCIALIST' like a 6th grader would call somebody a butthead. It's not very becoming of somebody who usually is well spoken/written.



Brian

 

[mdlowry]

Originally posted by Power Wagon

A number of years ago, my state, Oregon, passed a concealed carry law, giving everyone the right to carry a concealed weapon, provided they passed a safety course and background check.

PW,



Vermont is the only state where you have a RIGHT to concealed carry. In every other state that it is legal in you are required to beg for the "privilage" to bear arms from the government. Granted, most of these states are required to grant that "privilage" if there is no cause not to, but it is still a privilage granted by the state that can be revoked by the state.

 

[Sled Puller]

Sorry NVR Finish,



I got paranoid after Gore nearly stole that election, and I get nervous when I see the same tactics used elsewhere.



I will try to do better at not seeing Commys behind every bush.

 

[JohnMcIntyre]

Slip of the tongue...?

Originally posted by Power Wagon

I one of the more sarcastic sayings I've stumbled across is that the UK police ALWAYS get their man... .

I believe it was the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (aka Mounties) who were/are world-renowned for ALWAYS getting their man; the British Police have always been associated with the phrase "the long arm of the law..... "

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Wow, hot topic. I am a Canadian, born and raised. I have hunted and enjoyed firearms since I was about 6 years old. So for the last 22 years, guns have been a part of my life. In my entire life I have NEVER felt I have been threatened enough to kill someone else. In fact, I have lived in an area of about 100,000 people and can not remember the last shooting/murder with a firearm. Oh, right I remember, maybe 1 or 2 in the last 10 years, but one for sure was drug related. I have never been to the United States, but I am not so sure I would wan't to go if I had to be packin heat to feel safe. For some reason carrying a pistol to shoot other people is a little extreme for this poor nieve Canadian. I am all for people's rights to bear arms, but don't kill each other with them!!!!!!!!! Kill a poor innocent deer, bunny rabbit or swamp donkey.



#ad




When I make it to a TDR event in the States, can somebody lend me a gun for my personal protection??????

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by Jim Guidry



Let me pose a couple of questions: Two nights ago, the power on my little ranch in Texas went out. It's 3:00 am, dark and cold. I have to go outside, leaving my wife's side, to try and determine the cause of the outage. The nearest police station is twenty miles away. Would you, and your politics, have me go outside unarmed? Would you walk outside, in the dark, unarmed?

No more spouting statistics, Ameradian. Your degree from the third best school in England will not help you here. It's dark and dangerous out there. What would you do? Stay inside like a sheep, and await the outcome?



PS: For all you Americans on this forum, I did NOT go unarmed. I had my Smith M28 with me, and my darling bride had her Glock tucked under the covers. We are not sheep.

This story kinda makes me wonder how we as a country got to the point of having to carry a firearm to check a power outage. I wouldn't have even thought to take my 9mm or . 38 with me to check the breaker panel. Granted, I live a nice suburban neighborhood with 3 cops within shouting distance but still - we've got bigger problems to worry about if we have to fear for our safety while checking on a power outage.



Personally, I believe gun control is hitting what you're aiming at. It's the people that can't hit their target that make me worry. Any tool can be a deadly weapon. A firearm just projects itself quite bit farther than a hammer. Seriously, how do all of you propose to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals/people that are not fit to possess one? The right to bear arms may be a god given right but there are people that have given up that right by their actions or were never capable of handling the responsibility associated with that right. When the Constititution was written guns were an absolute necessity for daily survival (food) and people grew up learning how to handle them. Now they are not.



Brian

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by NVR FNSH



. Seriously, how do all of you propose to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals/people that are not fit to possess one? . When the Constititution was written guns were an absolute necessity for daily survival (food) and people grew up learning how to handle them. Now they are not.



Brian

Brian,

How Do YOU propose we should? You can't possible believe we can create a perfect world with no weapons can you?

As long as there is bad guys, the common citizen needs to be armed.



One thing that would help would make the punishment so severe that crooks would NEVER dream about commitiing a crime with a gun.

And the ones that do, well, they should never be able to hurt anyone again.



The writers of the Constitution were NOT concerned with guns for hunting, they were concerned with the common citizen having the capabliity to keep the Government in line.



History repeats itself, and if we give up our Freedoms in the feeble hope to gain safety, we will end up with NOTHING.

Our firearms is what seperates us from every other country in the world.



Gene

 

[NVR FNSH]

Gene I don't have an answer for how to prevent guns from being accessible by criminals/incompetents. That's why I asked the question. And no, I don't believe we can create a perfect world w/o guns. They are a tool and as I said previously 'gun control is hitting what you aim at'. If there was a way to guarantee that guns would never be available to anybody then there might be a plausible arguement for the total removal of all firearms from society - not likely to happen, look at our war on drugs.



My statement about guns being an everyday part of life was an attempt to show that as our society has 'improved' the day to day need for guns has lessened and people today do not have the same perception of firearms. Be that good, bad or indifferent.



This is one of cases where I think Islam has it right - punishment severe enough to PREVENT the crime from happening again.



Brian

 

[Sregorb]

Don't mind me, just fanning the flame of debate... ... Found the following (from Britain).



http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=119358



and another

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=119357



Makes for some interesting reading... .



I choose not to give my . 02 right now.



Brian

 

[willyslover]

Was glad to read all the responses to the thread. . as I see it this type of thread does more harm than good

reasons. .

We the believers of personal freedoms get sucked into an arguement and give print space / public aring to liberals who are damn and determined to win at all costs using any and all liberal writtings at their disposal including some that are at best a total fabrication, but because it was published it must be accurate.

We get emotional in our statments and get into a choice of words that do no good or worse yet loose the arguement.

There have been many good posts here, but as you read through and reread the space given to the liberals has done them well.



Please guys don't get emotion in your arguments. . you'll loose every time. . don't let them suck you in !



The place to make change is via the VOTE. . we all have a vested interest to get our population back into a realization we have a obligation to our country's future and the future of our children.



We are loosing the battle now through the school system and have been for many years. we are educating our children to be IDIOTS. . don't believe me look around at any store you shop in. . work ethic and educated employees are scarce. [I have over 200 employees that work for me and I'm in a rural area that has some selection of applications and values still. . we have to go through 15/20 application & interviews to find just 1 employee to hire and out of 10 employee's hired only 2 or so are keepers]



Please look at the air space you give Liberals and keep your emotion in check or you loose no matter how many help out.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Willyslover - nice post.

Originally posted by willyslover

We the believers of personal freedoms get sucked into an arguement and give print space / public aring to liberals who are damn and determined to win at all costs using any and all liberal writtings at their disposal including some that are at best a total fabrication, but because it was published it must be accurate.

Not sure it's just liberals that use those tactics... .

Originally posted by willyslover

Please guys don't get emotion in your arguments. . you'll loose every time. . don't let them suck you in !

This applies to all discussions/arguements - firearms, abortion, oil, anything with the wife... .

Originally posted by willyslover

The place to make change is via the VOTE. . we all have a vested interest to get our population back into a realization we have a obligation to our country's future and the future of our children.

Couldn't agree with you more. Did I just write that



Brian