2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission caster issue?

[VolsFan]

Hi,

Been working out bugs on the front end of the 01. To date have rebuilt all the tie rods, installed redhead gearbox, spohn stabilizer bar, spohn severe duty sway bar links. The new box made a huge difference. Problem I have is that the wheel wants to go to the left sporadically, hard to describe. It will track nice and straight, but still a little goosey, but major difference from when I first got it. There is a moog track bar on the truck and there is a 2" front lift, so I know I need an adjustable track bar to center axle back up, as well as front shocks, as they are the yellow bilsteins. I dont know much about caster, the arrows on the cam are pointed all the way forward on the lower control arms. Balljoints and control arm bushings appear to be tight

 

[HHhuntitall]

Hmmm, caster is a touchy subject... . I'd play with the toe-in a little and see if that helps... Is there any tire wear? That hunting steering bothers me... . my wife's truck does it pretty bad. Her's is the steering box, and on rough roads, you really gotta steer it. If your's is only doing it at random, that sounds like an alignment issue, if there are no other loose components... . Just because the lower arm indicators are all the way forward doesn't mean the frame is perfect and the axle is aligned correctly..... There is a reason why they're adjustable!! Tire wear will tell you a lot of what you need... .

 

[VolsFan]

Thanks, Im gonna get a 3rd gen adjustable track bar, not sure from who yet. I had a spohn bar on the 99, but want to try something different I think, reflecting on it, thought the bar itself was kind of thin gauge. Tire wear looks even, Id say at 90% tread left. At this point my plan is to get the adjustable bar on and take it to an alignment shop that knows these trucks and what an adjustable track bar is and have them look at it. I want to get the front end done before I start doing performance stuff this time unlike how I did it on the 99

 

[cerberusiam]

Pish! Caster is the easies thing to work out and do. Makes the most difference in driving also.

If the large side of the eccentric is towards the front of the truck the caster is maxxed out. With a leveling kit and the lack of caster you still may not have enough to make them drive right, these trucks were terrible when they got a little wear in them. Have it checked to see where it is but you may have to go to offset upper BJ's to get enough caster to make it solid.

It should be good if all the res tof the pieces are good. My son has an 01 that was a wandering minstrel until we maxxed the caster and added a steering stabilizer bar. Now even with a worn box it is a differnet truck to drive. It goes straight with very little input and changes and a cross wind doesn't cause a lane change. That and an upgraded TC made a while new truck out of it even with crappy BFG tires on it.

 

[VolsFan]

Thanks, thats good to hear, Ill keep that in mind. I have the stabilizer bar and a redhead box, and it is a huge difference from when I first drove the truck. Not familiar with offset balljoints, hopefully the alignment shop will know what Im talking about.

 

[NIsaacs]

Hi, Problem I have is that the wheel wants to go to the left sporadically, hard to describe.

If I understand you right, the above issue is an indicator of a problem in your steering box, a weak pump or maybe air in the system. The steering wheel should not move unless you give it input. The fact that it only moves to the left indicates a possible seal damaged on the rotory valve assembly or air on one side of the rack piston.



Nick

 

[EDankievitch]

As soon as you add a leveling kit you add more positive caster than you need stock I've seen these trucks with as much as 5 to 9 degrees positive caster stock from the factory. Add the leveling kit the short upper controll arms pull the axel tward the rear of the truck adding to the caster. I've found that extra caster just causes the truck to want to follow the crown of the road more. it will pull harder to the right in the right lane and harder to the left in the left lane. The book calls for 3. 5 to 4. 5 degrees positive caster. Summit performance sells a nice simple caster camber gauage. getthe gauage and set the truck as close to stock numbers you'll be very hapy. Also set the toe in about 1/16 in measured at the bead of the wheel as high as you can from under side of the axel same height front to back on the wheel.

 

[cerberusiam]

Factory caster is 1-2. 5 degrees. Maximum is going to be around 4 degrees. Best results were setting the caster to 3-3. 5 depending on the tires. The more caster in it the straighter it will drive.
There is no way to get 9 degrees of caster with just a 2" leveling kit.

The worse part is the fact the axle is no off center to the driver side and the truck is dog trailing. Toe in is likely out also. Either will contribute to tendency to wander.

 

[VolsFan]

Thanks for all the input. I ordered a 3rd gen adjustable track bar. Once I get it on, Im taking the truck to a reputable alignment shop that is familiar with dodge front ends. It is due for alignment anyhow, had all the tie rods, gearbox, and soon the track bar without one. Im interested to hear what they say about caster. If I have to ill get the adjustable control arms as a last resort. The truck is tight, just has that slight bit of wander in it yet, its getting there.

 

[EDankievitch]

The 9 degrees that is what I have found on two trucks that had a leveling kit installeas read on my caster camber gauage. first time I thought the gauage was bad so I checked it on a stock toyota tacoma, the gauage was right on at 3. 5 degrees. The one truck with 9 degrees was also checked at the local alignment shop and they also showed the same 9 degree reading. he upper controll arms are shorter than the lowers as you lift the truck the axel gets rotated the top to the rear of the truck adding to the caster. Carli controll arms are longer to compensate for this. By the way my stock 2012 was set from the factory at 6. 5 degrees positive caster.

 

[cerberusiam]

The 9 degrees that is what I have found on two trucks that had a leveling kit installeas read on my caster camber gauage.

Not a 2nd gen truck with sotck control arms you didn't. If you did I suggest re-examining just how your are deriving that number because it is wrong.

Again, what a 3rd or 4th gen reads is immaterial. The OP has a 2nd gen and they were limited in what you could extend them to, or what they would read with a leveling kit. Something less than 5 degrees is the max you will see with a leveling kit and full extension on the eccentrics. Been there, done that so I know what it will be.

The lower control arm is alos running at a different angle than the upper so rotating thru the geometry from stock to 3" does not change caster that much. Throwing a 4-6" lift dramatically changes things but it is not only caster that gets whacked. Axle centering, etc, all gets changed.

FYI, on a 3rd gen with a 1 degree offset max is 5. 3 degrees at stock height. There is no way to get 5 degrees more than stock max with a leveling kit, it doesn't lift it that far.

 

[VolsFan]

My adjustable track bar should be in tmrw so I can get the axle centered up. I took a framing square and put it against the tires inside the wheelbase and drew a line with a black marker on the floor. The drivers side is 3/8" shorter if I measured it right. So hopefully that will clear things up, still got it scheduled to get aligned. Will it be neccesary to get adjustable control arms if caster is not correct?

 

[cerberusiam]

Mot with a leveling kit. You shgould still be able to get decent caster out of it.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Pish! Caster is the easies thing to work out and do. Makes the most difference in driving also.

Well, it may sound easy to you, but there are many, many people it's difficult to explain to..... NOT because of intelligence issues (well, sometimes), but usually because they've never had the axle out and realize there's so much involved with how it lays under the truck. Just because it's perfectly parallel to the frame rails doesn't mean it will drive well. I think you've got a good concept of it, obviously, but there are so many factors. The taller the tire, the offset of your wheels, control arm geometry..... I don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be... . :-laf Trained technicians don't fully understand it. MOST just see numbers and type them into their computers and try to duplicate them. (I'm not sure I fully understand it, sometimes!!!! ) Can I get a death wobble, with a side order of tire wear, and an extra large repair bill... ... . please?... ... .



The MOOG offset ball joints are a wonder for helping alignment issues, but I've seen problems with them not lasting... . I'm not sure why, perhaps the offset angle adds stress to the joint? Just my experience... ... ...

 

[cerberusiam]

Moog is junk for the weight these trucks have on the front end. A good offset joint lasts quite well if it is well built. Moog BJ's are not well built.

Caster - departure from vertical of the center line of an axle as defined by a line drawn thru the ball joints, either positive or negative, in the direction of travel. (in other which way does it tilt, forward or backward). A simple 2 dimensional drawing easily illustrates this. The inability of an alignment tech to grok this concept means he is well and truly fastened to an object by an inclined plane wrapped helically around an axis.

Now, trying to explain how the suspension geometry actually functions in motion sans the ability to visualize in 4 dimensions is a hopeless task. :-laf THEN, all they can do is read the numbers and hope.

 

[EDankievitch]

Front ends, not rocket science but then again the Chinese had rockets almost 7,000 years ago.....

 

[cerberusiam]

Front ends, not rocket science but then again the Chinese had rockets almost 7,000 years ago.....

It is, however, a bit more complicated than a mono leaf. :-laf

 

[VolsFan]

with all the different moving parts in these front ends, I think they are pretty darn complicated myself. I got my adjustable 3rd gen track bar and some bilstein 5100's in, havent been able to drive it yet though. Only thing that I havent replaced in the front end is the control arms. I want to get this front end solid before I turn to other stuff on the truck.

 

[VolsFan]

I have never experienced "death wobble"though,knock on wood, in all my time driving different 4wd dodge trucks some having a lot of play in the front ends. Hope I never do, sounds like its pretty lame. I want to enjoy driving the truck with tight steering before I get go fast stuff

 

[HHhuntitall]

I have never experienced "death wobble"though,knock on wood, in all my time driving different 4wd dodge trucks some having a lot of play in the front ends. Hope I never do, sounds like its pretty lame. I want to enjoy driving the truck with tight steering before I get go fast stuff

And I think that's logical thinking. Brakes would be logically first, then steering, IMO. I've only had death wobble on one truck I've ever owned, and it was one my ranch foreman drove, and the tracking bar was worn so bad I had to drill out and weld in a new insert into the frame to fix it..... Should have opted for the '03 upgrade, but that would have took too long to order and get... . I see them from time to time, in customer's trucks, and it's usually loose components, but I did have one, an '03, that I never got fixed... . New components all the way around, including all new bushings in track bar, control arms, and dampener, but it still did it... . I never got to finish trying, as the guy sold it he was so frustrated... . He bought a Chevy, and now his independent suspension, with around 120k, is giving him fits... Nothing like throw-away trucks...